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I'm really regretting the title of this thread.

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It IS hard for me, REALLY hard- to be kind to him, after such a long cycle of short lived mutual kindness.

Tonight I came to bed and he was taking up 3/4ths of our king bed, (laying diagonally). I asked him politely if he could please move over a little bit. He proceeded to tell me I'm a b*tch, that I just take over and act like I'm in charge. Tells me he's in charge, not me, I have no right, more cuss words, blah blah blah...

Nothing in my nature tells me to be kind to someone like that. To what end? You say the end result is a good marriage. My defenses tell me the end result is me being a doormat, because whenever he's angry or irritated, that's how he talks to me-- even in the decent times in our marriage.

Yet I'm still here on MB. Not sure why, since yes... I'm still going in circles, unwilling to move......

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What is FGS?

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For gosh's sake! >.< (too lazy to type it)

His AO isn't excusable, of course.

There is such conflict/withdrawal between you two, one has to wonder what constitutes "politely."

Tone of voice, body language, facial expression, eye contact (or lack thereof)... all this was in a "polite" manner? If he were "polite" to you in the same manner, would it have upset you?

Take the lead, AD. You even get to claim the "high road" if you do (though, you can't wield that as a weapon against him).

I doubt you are the most "wrecked" person and/or marriage to come through here... so what are you waiting for? What are you looking for?

WHAT DO YOU WANT?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted By: Autumn Day
Nothing in my nature tells me to be kind to someone like that.


It's going both ways, and you know it.

It's not in anyone's nature to be kind to someone who is being cruel.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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HHH~ I know he HATES when I ask him to move over, AND he is 2 1/2 times my size, so believe me I AM polite about it because if not he could be even more mean about it. I said, (quietly, because he was almost asleep), "H, could you please move over a little bit, your head and pillow are on top of my pillow." Then he went off.

Why do you all just automatically assume every thing I say to him is mean?

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If I were on his side of the bed, YES, I would move immediately if he asked me, no matter the tone of voice he used, because as foolish as it is for me to ever ask him to move, it would be even more foolish for me to not move, because as he says- he's in charge. In fact, I'd move before he asked because I wouldn't want the conflict.

This is such crazy stupid stuff. I can't believe I'm even discussing it.

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Originally Posted By: Autumn Day
HHH~ I know he HATES when I ask him to move over, AND he is 2 1/2 times my size, so believe me I AM polite about it because if not he could be even more mean about it. I said, (quietly, because he was almost asleep), "H, could you please move over a little bit, your head and pillow are on top of my pillow." Then he went off.

Why do you all just automatically assume every thing I say to him is mean?


Again; body language, facial expression, tone of voice, eye contact (or lack thereof).

Not only are you not in love with your H, you don't even really seem to like the guy right now.

Quote:
Reason would dictate that demands, disrespect and anger are not the way to resolve conflicts in marriage. But with the Giver and Taker as the only instinctive alternatives, reason doesn't play much of a role in marital problem-solving. Instead, mood is almost everything, and after a fight, most couples do not feel much like going back to the rule of the Giver.

So they leave the Taker in charge, and the Taker adopts a new approach. In the state of Conflict it's strategy is fight. But in the state of Withdrawal, it's strategy is flight.

When you're in the state of Conflict, your Taker tries to force your spouse to meet your needs, making demands, showing disrespect, and threatening your spouse with angry outbursts to get its way. But if that doesn't work--if your spouse does not meet your needs--your Taker suggests a new approach to the problem: Withdrawal. It tries to convince you that your spouse is not worth the effort, and you should engage in emotional divorce.

In the state of Withdrawal, spouses no longer feel emotionally bonded or in love, and emotional defenses are raised. Neither one wants to try to meet the other's needs, and both have given up on attempts to get their own needs met by the other. One becomes two. They are completely independent, united only in living arrangements, finances and childrearing, although they often have to keep up appearances for neighbors and friends.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3615_state.html

Quote:
While demanding and arguing is instinctive in the state of Conflict, one spouse can lead the other back to Intimacy by resisting the Taker's temptation to fight. It takes two to argue, and if one spouse makes an effort to avoid making demands and judgmental statements, and tries to be thoughtful and meet the other's needs, the other spouse usually calms down and does the same thing.

Once they see each other's caring efforts, and rebuild their Love Bank accounts, they re-enter the Intimacy stage. But there's an irony that trips up some couples. Which spouse do you think is the first to move back into the state of Intimacy: the one who makes the first effort to meet the other's needs, or the recipient of that effort? You may have guessed it. The recipient of care is usually the first to return to the state of intimacy, and not the one who make the greatest effort to save the relationship.

If you set a good example by meeting your spouse's needs first, alas, that usually means that your own needs are met last. Your Taker is not pleased with this arrangement, and may try to sabotage it. You will need to make a deliberate and patient effort to override the Taker's instinct to retreat back to fighting and name-calling. But if you resist that instinct to argue, and instead focus attention on behaving thoughtfully and meeting your spouse's needs, your spouse will be encouraged to reciprocate.


http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3620_state.html

Hello?

It's here AD, I'm sure you've read it.

I understand that it's hard to match up your head and heart. 1 year in to recovery, I'm still trying to do it. But that effort requires action, not pointing and blame-shifting.

Quote:
The Japanese have a saying, "Fix the problem, not the blame." Find out what's f^%$ed up and fix it. Nobody gets blamed. We're always after who f^&*ed up. Their way is better.


Watched Rising Sun with FWW the other night... LOVED this quote, though it's like the 20th time I've watched that movie.

You know what's screwed up, NOW FIX IT.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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AD; considering you are miserable, and your marriage feels loveless to you... WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO LOSE BY TRYING?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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OK.

I am ready to work this.

Please point me in the right direction as to what I should read and/or do first, and then second, third, fourth.... because I feel overwhelmed- I don't know where to start.

I don't want to do this, but I know I should, because 1) I made a commitment to him, in front of God. 2) For our children. 3) I think it's worth it to at least see if I can love and be loved again.

I have 2 MAJOR concerns/ stumbling blocks though:

1) I finally decide this, and my husband leaves for overseas today. We didn't even say goodbye. He will be overseas or a domestic trip e/o week for the next 6 weeks. I think Melody is right, that we can't make this work with that much time apart, but I still feel I have to try. I figure I can read, read, read while he's gone.

2) [Even though I know I'll receive 2 x 4's for being shallow]... I don't know how I will ever get past the fact I have ZERO physical attraction to him, because of his weight. I can't imagine I'd suddenly be attracted to him, even if in love with him, and I can't imagine falling in love with someone I have no physical attraction to. His weight really bothers me.

I am hoping his weight won't bother me as much though. Can love REALLY "cover a multitude of sins", as the saying goes? Is the need to be physically attracted one of the EN's or am I just whacked? I thought briefly of just letting myself go, and not being physically fit myself so we'd look more alike, but I can't in good conscience do that, when I have a young child I need to be around for. Besides, I've always felt miserable even just being at the top of the weight range for my height. I'm sorry this is a big deal to me, but it's who I am, and it's who I was when I first married him and he WAS very physically fit. I would have never married someone who's 50-75 lbs overweight... never.

If he reads this, and he probably will.... we are doomed. He is more hurt about how I'm turned off by his weight, than even my A-- I think.

Last edited by Autumn Day; 03/19/11 02:52 PM. Reason: Learning to say things better.
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Does anyone know how much the Online Seminar/Accountability Program costs?

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Originally Posted By: Autumn Day
Does anyone know how much the Online Seminar/Accountability Program costs?


I haven't done it of course, but I think I read somewhere that it was around $1000, maybe a little less.

As far as the physical attractiveness thing, I can give an example of how someone can be attracted to someone they otherwise did not find physically attractive because of EN's being met. My example may make me puke in my mouth a little bit, because it involves the OM, but I'll try.

I NEVER would have thought the OM was someone I would be physically attracted to. He just wasn't my type. He was short (I like tall), older, and (not to be mean) but just not very good looking. My H is MUCH better looking (and taller). I always thought of the OM as a brother, someone I liked to hang out with and joke around with, but never anyone I would want to be intimate with. Well, of course that turned out not to be the case. As we spent more time together, talking about things that interested both of us (something I couldn't do with my H, since our interests were quite different) I found myself developing feelings for him that were not very sisterly. Of course, as everyone knows, I ended up having an A with this man I wasn't attracted to at all, because he was meeting some of my top EN's (conversation and recreational companionship).

So yes, it can be done.

Ideally though, your H will get onboard with MB and agree to do the weekend program with you, and you will be able to go through your EN's and develop a plan to meet each others top EN's (including your need for an Attractive Spouse) and this won't always be a problem.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
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Originally Posted By: Autumn Day
Does anyone know how much the Online Seminar/Accountability Program costs?


It's $1000 now. online course


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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AD,

You asked what you could read?


LEADERSHIP AND SELF-DECEPTION: GETTING OUT OF THE BOX, by The Arbinger Institute.

It is a little book, about 140 pages or so long.


You will find a description of yourself in those pages (and frankly, of everyone you know).

You will see that you are in a box toward your husband, and that you have been in this box for a very, very, very long time. So long, in fact, that you virtually can no longer see it. You have built up a nice little defense for this box. You protect it quite well.

And in that box you blame him nicely for the fact that you are in it, and point to the fact that there is no way "he" will let you out of it.


Only, "he" never put you in it, and "he" cannot take you out of it. Only you control the box.


Read. This. Book.


Then, read it again, because the first time around you spend so much time in shock about how blind you have been about yourself that you actually lose a great deal of the information. The second reading brings the information into more clarity.


Then, sit quietly with yourself, and look at your relationships with OTHER PEOPLE, not your husband, and figure out who you are in the box toward, and NOT in the box toward.

Because it will help you to understand when you went in that box against your hubby.

And it will definitely help you crawl out, a much humbler woman.

Additionally, a much happier and more peaceful one. You may also wish to read the sequel, once you have practices living the lessons you learn in this book.

This book can, and will, change YOU. Because once you become aware of the moment you step into the box, you cannot help but see that moment EVERY TIME YOU DO IT for the rest of your life.

And once you see it, there's no denying it.............
and something inside of you just won't let you do it, because you realize just how stupid it really is.

SB


Lucky to be where I am, in a safe place to get marriage-related support.
Recovered.
Happy.
Most recent D-day Fall 2005
Our new marriage began that day. Not easily, but it did happen.
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Originally Posted By: Autumn Day

2) [Even though I know I'll receive 2 x 4's for being shallow]... I don't know how I will ever get past the fact I have ZERO physical attraction to him, because of his weight. I can't imagine I'd suddenly be attracted to him, even if in love with him, and I can't imagine falling in love with someone I have no physical attraction to. His weight really bothers me.


Of course you won't be able to overcome that! crazy And MB doesn't expect you to overcome that. If physical attraction is a top need, then you won't fall in love unless he becomes physically attractive. He has to lose the weight. You don't do him or you any favors whitewashing the fact that his weight bothers you.

Quote:
If he reads this, and he probably will.... we are doomed. He is more hurt about how I'm turned off by his weight, than even my A-- I think.


No, you are doomed if he doesn't know this. You should be honest and tell him his weight bothers you.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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SB~ I meant what MB things do I start reading and doing first? I'm not going to read some random self help book first, now that I'm determined to do MB. WHERE do I start w/ MB? I can't do the online program until my husband is home for a decent stretch of time, so I need to know what MB links, articles, books I should be reading first. Also, for the millionth time, I don't blame my husband for my dissatisfaction. I know I choose how to respond to the situation and to him.

Melody~ You say I shouldn't whitewash, then you say I need to clean up my verbiage? I'm not following. Do you mean in case he reads this? I should delete the fat stuff? He already knows his weight bothers me. He says I'm shallow.

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I'm not very PC, in case you hadn't noticed. wink

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Originally Posted By: Autumn Day
SB~ I meant what MB things do I start reading and doing first? I'm not going to read some random self help book first, now that I'm determined to do MB. WHERE do I start w/ MB? I can't do the online program until my husband is home for a decent stretch of time, so I need to know what MB links, articles, books I should be reading first. Also, for the millionth time, I don't blame my husband for my dissatisfaction. I know I choose how to respond to the situation and to him.


Start with Lovebusters and then move onto Fall in Love, Stay in Love. I agree you don't have a need to go off and read a self help book. The goal here is to fix your marriage. Listen to Dr Harley's radio show every day if you can. It is sooooo informative. I learned more from that radio show in 6 months than I had in the previous 5 years on this forum! It is free and it is a great resource.

He has to know you don't like his weight. And no you are not shallow. That is just how you are WIRED. WE don't CHOOSE what it takes to make us fall in love.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted By: Autumn Day
I'm not very PC, in case you hadn't noticed. wink


That is why I love you.. laugh


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thank you, Melody. I will get to reading.

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Originally Posted By: MelodyLane
Originally Posted By: Autumn Day
SB~ I meant what MB things do I start reading and doing first? I'm not going to read some random self help book first, now that I'm determined to do MB. WHERE do I start w/ MB? I can't do the online program until my husband is home for a decent stretch of time, so I need to know what MB links, articles, books I should be reading first. Also, for the millionth time, I don't blame my husband for my dissatisfaction. I know I choose how to respond to the situation and to him.


Start with Lovebusters and then move onto Fall in Love, Stay in Love. I agree you don't have a need to go off and read a self help book. The goal here is to fix your marriage. Listen to Dr Harley's radio show every day if you can. It is sooooo informative. I learned more from that radio show in 6 months than I had in the previous 5 years on this forum! It is free and it is a great resource.

He has to know you don't like his weight. And no you are not shallow. That is just how you are WIRED. WE don't CHOOSE what it takes to make us fall in love.



You have the link for the free archive handy, Mel? Or, could you toss Markos an elbow to post it up again? I'm lazy, just got home from clinicals.


AD, I am ecstatic that you have found motivation to get it moving again. It's going to be hard as h-e-double-hockey-sticks with your H and his travel, and you know that.


I spent a long time last night reading over your history, so of the few things I know; you are remorseful for your actions, you are articulate, and you are compassionate - that I saw in the way you supported others.

Somewhere back there, you had an optimist. She left the building, though.

For new reading, how about the "What is Wrong With Unconditional Love" articles, and follow them up with the "When to Call it Quits" articles.

Reflect on those some, and then REALLY hit the books on the "How to Resolve Conflicts" section. Browse through them, and when you find letters and answers that REALLY hit home, print them out, reread them, and mark the holy heck out of them.


If your H is going to be gone for 6 weeks, use that time to gather steam, gain focus, and formulate a plan.

Also use this time to formulate a letter to your H. Make it an honest declaration of your feelings, and make it your "mission plan" for where you want your M to go.

Maximize the opportunities you get between now and when he leaves, and while he is gone maximize every phone call.

Concentrate on eliminating your LBs, and how to communicate effectively about when he LBs you.


That's all I can think of, the vets probably think of better. There is always the radio show, too.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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