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And you, MrsW! This is the second time this foreigner has got one over on you today!

Don't do it again!


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His PA 2003-2006
2 kids.
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I made the edit on both my posts.
Thanks for catching that!
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I see the a big transformation in the OPs thinking here. Makes me sad that my own wife isn't willing to try...but congrats on your on all your revelations smile

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Originally Posted by SugarCane
And you, MrsW! This is the second time this foreigner has got one over on you today!

Don't do it again!

I haven't a clue what you're babbling about! flirt

Mrs. W

*Now I really gotta get outta here! I'm going, I'm going! grin


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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WAY TO REGULATE SUGARCANE!! Keep 'em in line girl!!! wink


Me - 29 WW
H - 35
DD1 - 6yo
DD2 - 2yo
DDay - Feb 26, 2011
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Also, laying in bed last night I had a thought. I think Steve (marriage builders, whomever) should host a "couples retreat" or something so that we can put a face with a name and meet all of the people who give good advice. They could hold little seminars just to help enforce the "guidelines" and keep a couple on the right track once a year. I think it would be a great idea! Sorry...totally random, just throwing it out there.


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Originally Posted by strugglingaz
Also, laying in bed last night I had a thought. I think Steve (marriage builders, whomever) should host a "couples retreat" or something so that we can put a face with a name and meet all of the people who give good advice. They could hold little seminars just to help enforce the "guidelines" and keep a couple on the right track once a year. I think it would be a great idea! Sorry...totally random, just throwing it out there.

It's called the Marriage Builders Weekend, but I'm too dumb to find a link for you.



"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I believe the MBW are now extinct....in it's place is the DVD program.


Me,BW - 42; FWH-46
4 kids
D-Day #s1 and 2~May 2006
D-Day #3~Feb.27, 2007 (we'd been in a FR)
Plan B~ March 3 ~ April 6, 2007

In Recovery and things are improving every day. MB rocks. smile
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Originally Posted by MarriedForever
I believe the MBW are now extinct....in it's place is the DVD program.


...

That sucks. Bad.

crybaby


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Alas, the in person Marriage Builders Weekend is no more. frown Prisca and I attended the very last one last year. With travel expenses going up and with the quality of a program that could be offered online, the in person seminars were discontinued. The Weekend we attended had only about twelve couples in attendance. But the one a couple of months before us was sold out! In fact, we wanted to go to that one!

From time to time some Marriage Builders folks have met each other in person. There are even pictures of some of these meetings floating around in various places.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Originally Posted by strugglingaz
...I got the OM out of my mind and started focusing on my husband and his wounds and it wasn't nearly as hard as I had anticipated. ...
Well. Quite a change of pace from a week ago when you were telling us "The other man is ALL I can think about right now".

I am happy for you & your DH that you've stuck around.

Good as far as it goes. Just make sure you keep going. I want you to be on your guard:

It's for good reason that you'll see people refer to marital recovery as a "roller-coaster." You & your husband may be at, or soon get to, a point where each week is better than the previous week; but it is very unlikely that each day will be better than the previous day. Expect ups & downs in his feelings and in your feelings. If you've read SAA, then you know that being one week into no-contact means you still likely have some withdrawal to get through -- even if your "fog-alert lightbulb" has finally come on.

List your EPs. Keep to them.
List his ENs. Meet them.
Your words over the past 6 days sound better.
But your actions over the next 6 months will matter more.


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Can someone touch on the differences between EP's and personal boundaries. I have to make out "my plan" and don't know if one is considered the other or what. Thanks.


Me - 29 WW
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This is a particularly good post about EPs that I got from another poster (thank you, HerPapaBear). This will help you get some ideas for extraordinary precautions:

Quote
When discussing EPs, Dr. Harley addresses that the following areas need to change:

A) Blocking all communication with Affair Partners (AP�s)
B) Accounting for all of your time
C) Accounting for all money
D) Spending your leisure time with your wife.

EP�s are put into place to protect your spouse.

Protection = Care

EP�s are also designed to ELIMINATE the opportunity to have a secret second life.

Ok, so let�s talk about two different categories you need to create in your list of EP�s.

The first category is a list of one-time EPs that you will need to make sure you complete quickly.

The second category is a list of EPs that you will follow for a lifetime.

So let�s start with the first category items.

(what follows are SUGGESTIONS, remember this is going to be YOUR list)


A) Change cell phone number and give password & account access to your spouse.
B) Change email account.
C) Eliminate all social networking accounts (i.e., Face book, Classmates, My Space, etc.)
D) Take a polygraph
E) Make a copy of my vehicle keys and any other keys my spouse does not have and give to them (i.e., safe deposit boxes, business keys, storage cabinets/lockers, etc.)
F) List out passwords for all business and personal computer logins, and any other passwords my spouse does not have access to.
G) Give my spouse access to any banking/financial accounts, business and personal.
H) Install software that tracks all internet use, giving my spouse administrative access.
I) Install a webcam/security cameras for while at work that my spouse can access.
J) I will contact an attorney that will work on my spouse�s behalf and write a post-nuptial agreement.
K) Sell the house/purchase a new one.
L) Sell any vehicle AP was in and replace them.

Some of these things you may have already done. But these are one time things that you set up and they stay this way with little or no maintenance.

Include completed items on this list as well as items still in process on your list.
_________________________
tst


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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See the section on EPs (about halfway down the page) in Harley's answer to "R.G." here: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Boundaries are lines (around yourself & around your marriage) that you will defend against intrusion, and lines that you will not cross in your personal conduct. For example, you may maintain a boundary which entails that you will not have, maintain or form friendships with males outside your marriage other than as part of a couple-to-couple friendship where your husband is party to & aware of every interaction.

Extraordinary precautions include specific actions you take to uphold your boundaries (for example, "I will change my e-mail address & cellphone number to make it so that ex-OM cannot readily write, call or text me". Or "If a male business acquaintance asks me about my personal life, I will redirect or end the conversation in such a way that it is clear to him that his inquiry is not one that I consider appropriate or worthy of a response.") However, beyond the mere idea of putting in place & defending proper boundaries, EPs also include specific steps/policies you take or implement in consideration of your spouse to help him feel more secure (for example, ""I will give my husband all of my passwords so that he can reassure himself that I am upholding no-contact").

P.S. -- HerPapaBear was one of my EP gurus; thanks to maritalbliss for reposting his list.

Last edited by GloveOil; 03/16/11 09:45 PM. Reason: added P.S.

Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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Here's some more from HerPapaBear:
Quote
Category #2 is a little more along the lines of EPs that you need to maintain on a continuous, consistent basis.

A) I will protect my spouse and their feelings above all else.
B) I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
C) I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
D) I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
E) I agree to use POJA as a basis for all decisions.
F) I will be open and honest with my spouse at all times about the past and present.
G) I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments and contact information.
H) If I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify my spouse of the change immediately.
I) I will make my spouse�s phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
J) I will avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
K) I will trade phones with my spouse at any time they request, NO questions asked.
L) I will leave my phone accessible to my spouse at night/or anytime I�m home.
M) I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with my spouse to meet each other�s ENs every week (time working together does not count toward those 15 hours).
N) If AP finds a way to make contact, I will immediately end the contact and notify my spouse about it immediately after.
O) I will install a keylogger, GPS, or any other tracking system my spouse may request.
P) Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will call my spouse immediately and tell them my thoughts.
Q) Anything else my spouse wants as a boundary.


D-Day 2-10-2009
Fully Recovered and Better Than Ever!
Thank you Marriage Builders!

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Strugglin~

Please come talk to me -- Let's noodle over what's going through your mind together. Let's talk about "losing your identity" - "giving up your Being", your feelings of "I don't know who I am!" and the like. Let's get down to what that's about, okay? I'd really appreciate the opportunity to try and help you. smile

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Mrs. W...I don't really know what you mean by "noodle"...but yes, the feeling of losing a piece of myself is in my mind right now. It just hit me last night as someone called and mentioned to me about a concert and it hit me that I may never be able to go to a concert or anything that I love, for that matter, by myself again...and yes, it did bother me. I feel a little bit like I have to give up EVERYTHING that is "me" to try to sustain this marriage. As I have mentioned before, this idea is completely foreign and stops me in my tracks once in a while. Any advice is welcomed!


Me - 29 WW
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Originally Posted by strugglingaz
Mrs. W...I don't really know what you mean by "noodle"...but yes, the feeling of losing a piece of myself is in my mind right now. It just hit me last night as someone called and mentioned to me about a concert and it hit me that I may never be able to go to a concert or anything that I love, for that matter, by myself again...and yes, it did bother me. I feel a little bit like I have to give up EVERYTHING that is "me" to try to sustain this marriage. As I have mentioned before, this idea is completely foreign and stops me in my tracks once in a while. Any advice is welcomed!


Quote
Why Should a Couple Plan to Be with Each Other When They Are the Happiest?

Introduction: One of the most controversial positions I take regarding marriage is that a husband and wife should be together for their favorite recreational activities. Whatever it is they enjoy doing the most, they either do with each other, or they don't do it at all.

Some feel that I am out to destroy marriage with that suggestion, not save it. After all, how can a husband and wife survive each other in life unless they are able to get away once in a while to have some fun.

"You are meddling, Dr. Harley! I need something to look forward to, and _______ is absolutely essential to my survival," is the response I often hear from spouses when first introduced to the idea. "There are some things a man and woman simply cannot enjoy together, and yet are essential to their happiness."

But my advice is not based on ivory tower speculation. It's based on years of observation. Couples who spend their most enjoyable time together tend to have great marriages, and those who do not, tend to divorce. Furthermore, I have witnessed hundreds of couples who have given up activities that only one enjoyed for activities that they both enjoyed. None went crazy, and almost all of them were very happy that they made the change.


Struggling, one of the things that made my FWW's affair possible was that she developed a habit of doing things without me - something that I allowed because I once shared the same mindset as you.

What comes in to play is that you build emotions and memories of fun, good times, and good feelings with things and people that don't involve your spouse. This develops independence from your spouse, when the goal of marriage is interdependence.

Why, wouldn't it be great to go to that concert with this friend of yours? Better than hanging around the house with your dowdy husband, correct?

WRONG. It is poison to your marriage and your recovery. Instead, what you should do is focus on doing things that you and your husband enjoy doing together. Then the fun, good time, and good feelings become associated with your husband. It makes deposits into his account in your LB$, and your account in his.

A great deal of affairs begin with independent behaviors, and taking part in recreational activities independently.

Read the whole article here.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by strugglingaz
Mrs. W...I don't really know what you mean by "noodle"...but yes, the feeling of losing a piece of myself is in my mind right now. It just hit me last night as someone called and mentioned to me about a concert and it hit me that I may never be able to go to a concert or anything that I love, for that matter, by myself again...and yes, it did bother me. I feel a little bit like I have to give up EVERYTHING that is "me" to try to sustain this marriage. As I have mentioned before, this idea is completely foreign and stops me in my tracks once in a while. Any advice is welcomed!

Sorry about the term "noodle" - to me it means "think", as in "use your noodle"! grin

I have an appointment this morning so I don't have the amount of time I'd like to dedicate to this right now, but I will be back later. Until then, think about who it is that you want to "be" -- what are your values -- at the end of your life what would you like people to remember you for? What do you want your children to learn from you?

Is your husband unable to go to concerts with you? That line of thinking - wanting to go alone struck me as odd -- What can you do when your husband is not there that you can't do when he is? Maybe this is hard to believe in your current state -- and I do understand that [withdrawal], but working the MB program will put you in a place that makes your husband FIRST CHOICE when it comes to going to do fun things -- really, it will...My husband is the MOST fun person I know, strugglin ~ no joke - I really do prefer his company to anyone else in the world -- You guys CAN have that too. I pray that you will believe me and throw yourself totally into working this program -- It is VERY worth it...

I'll check in with you later...Hope today finds you in better spirits. smile

Mrs. W


FWW ~ 47 ~ Me
FBH ~ 50 ~ MrWondering
DD ~ 17
Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered

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Originally Posted by strugglingaz
...It just hit me last night as someone called and mentioned to me about a concert and it hit me that I may never be able to go to a concert or anything that I love, for that matter, by myself again...and yes, it did bother me. I feel a little bit like I have to give up EVERYTHING that is "me" to try to sustain this marriage. As I have mentioned before, this idea is completely foreign and stops me in my tracks once in a while. Any advice is welcomed!

Struggling, indulge me for a minute while I try to unpack some of this a little...

First, try not to overreact or to make up imaginary obstacles: "Never" be able to go to a concert? Giving up "everything" that is "you"? When & where has anyone suggested this to you? You made this absolute language up on your own.

No one is suggesting that you can "never" do things you like. I & my wife haven't had to give up everything we enjoy. Can there be times when you go to a concert with some girlfriends, without hubby in tow? Sure.

But this early in recovery, ain't the time for that.

In recovering our marriage after my affair, I didn't have to give up playing in my men's baseball leagues. I didn't have to give up going to Home Depot on Saturday mornings to schlepp around the aisles looking at tools & planning home projects. My wife didn't have to give up going to the movies with our kids. She didn't have to give up going out to lunch with her girlfriends. It wasn't by any means an absolute cessation of "everything" that we as individuals had previously enjoyed or found fulfilling or fun.

But did we have to make some changes. We did have to put one another's feelings first & give each other first dibs on one another's time. This was especially true of me, as the one who had the affair. For a few weekends after the affair, I hardly ever wanted to leave the house without my wife. When I did go to the grocery store, or the hardware store, on a Saturday morning, I made sure to tell her in advance exactly where I'd be & when. I carried my cellphone with me & had it "on" so she could reach me if she wanted to. Because during the affair, some of those Saturday morning trips were when I had been gone to be with the OW. I had a special obligation to do things to reassure my wife of my whereabouts. Had news of my affair broken in spring instead of winter, you bet I'd have had to put baseball on the shelf.

And she made changes, too. We started doing things together. Usually, the way it works is, if there are things that one peson likes but the other person hates, you set those aside (in terms of being a "couple" activity); and instead, you pick some things that one person likes that the other person likes or merely can tolerate, and you make the effort to do them together, not because you hope to "get" something out of it, but because you want to give something to your spouse. My wife wasn't a workout maven, but she started spending time downstairs in the gym with me. (Even when she might've been silently imagining that the punching bag down there was me, we worked out, talked, and it was quality time. I have watched more movies with the family. We don't play board games as much as she'd probably like, but I've done some more of that than before (which was never.) We go out to breakfast together on most weekends. I cut back the time I spent at work.

And if there are things you have been doing that were downright harmful to your marriage, then yes, you will have to give those up altogether. If the friends whom you went to concerts with are friends who put down marriage or flirt with guys (and to be clear, I don't know that that's the case, so I am not making that assumption, but am only speaking hypothetically here), then in that case, yes, you would need to cut that out.

Undivided Attention time is the single most important thing that a couple can do to boost the romantic-love factor in a marriage. This is true regardles of whether there's been an affair, but it's especially crucial in recovering from one & in building a marriage that is better than what you had before the affair -- which has to be your & InnerStrength's goal. This doesn't mean that you & hubby have to be joined-at-the-hip for the rest of your lives. It means that you make a genuine effort. And for you, as the person who strayed from the marriage, it means that you have an extra obligation to go the extra mile in these crucial first several months of recovery.

Strugglingaz, I am going to speak directly here (because, hey, after all, if you wanted sugar-coating, you could go on one of those other websites where Other Women get cheered on for "being true to themselves"): Whining about how constrained you feel right now, when you're barely a couple of weeks into no-contact, is not "going the extra mile." It's a manifestation of the same selfishness that led you to transfer your emotional loyalty to a man other than the one you married.

"Noodle" this for awhile & tell us what you come up with.


Me: FWH, 50
My BW: Trust_Will_Come, 52, tall, beautiful & heart of gold
DD23, DS19
EA-then-PA Oct'08-Jan'09
Broke it off & confessed to BW (after OW's H found out) Jan.7 2009
Married 25 years & counting.
Grateful for forgiveness. Working to be a better husband.
"I wear the chain I forged in life... I made it link by link, and yard by yard" ~Jacob Marley's ghost, A Christmas Carol
"Do it again & you're out on your [bum]." ~My BW, Jan.7 2009
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