Prisca,

You & markos did the Marriage Builders Weekend program, didn't you? And you have access to the followup forum with Dr Harley? Have you posted to him to get his suggestions and advice? I'd think it'd be great to go straight to him.

I do have one suggestion and it might sound trivial but it sure helped me.

How long has it been since you & markos had pictures taken together? Just the two of you,,,no kids. My H and I had a friend (that was good with the camera) come to our house and she snapped a couple of rolls of pictures of just him & me. Very casual shots. Now I HATE having my picture taken (I'm very critical) but out of that many pictures, there were some I could live with. We had them enlarged to 5X7's, framed them & put them all over the house. Bedroom walls, nightstands, hallway, den,,etc. On really tough days when I wanted to strangle him, looking around & seeing the pictures softened my heart. On the days I was a sobbing mess seeing the pictures reminded me of the goal. They really helped me alot....

Just a thought....

Prica,

There is a lot to say to you, but I thought I would focus on this one set of words from you. You said The thing that struck me about this post or this portion of it was the cruelty that you showed toward your H. BUT, the thing that really struck me was the thought that if OM had loved you, you would have continued with the affair and your cruelty toward your H. Read that last paragraph I quoted and tell me how I or anyone should think about it.

I don't know how your H is going to truly recover from what you said, how he will ever trust he is more than "just a paycheck" to you. That one struck very deeply I am sure.

So I ask you what is your plan?

How do you expect your H to know that you actually chose him and would have chosen him if OM did actually care for you? How do you plan on overcoming what you said to him, because after all they were your truths right?

I applaud you for avoiding the DJ's. This is an excellent start, but given all of the lies, the very harsh but probably true you words you have spoken to him, what is your plan?

Please think about this. I look forward to your response.

God Bless,

JL

Prisca, I don't know you very well, or Markos for that matter, but I just wanted to let you know that I'm here reading along and cheering for your marriage from the sidelines. I really hope you guys make it.

((Prisca))

13. I will CC Markos on my emails, especially to men.

I've been doing a lot of reading over the weekend. There's probably not much at all that I'm NOT foggy on. Markos knows all this stuff, but in a sense, I'm just getting started. I know the basics -- EN, LB, the love bank.

One of the big ones for me is Negotiation. I see how it works in theory, yet I have trouble putting it into practice. It's deeply rooted in me that it's either my way or his way, which means it's often his way because I don't want to fight (Markos hates that I just go along with his ideas instead of negotiating).

Radical Honesty would be another ... again, it makes sense on paper. But actually doing it without DJing alludes me.

I don't feel that I'm entitled to anything at the moment. Last year I felt entitled to be happy and to have my EN met the way I liked, when I liked. Sometimes I find myself starting to think: "Why isn't Markos giving me what I want?" But I quickly push that thought from my mind. I don't deserve anything except to be tossed out on my rear.

I am a very quiet person by nature. Markos is the talker in our relationship.

Not really (with some exceptions). I've seen MB referred to as cult-like, and I don't buy it. I shy away from such labels, probably because my church has also been accused of being cult-like simply because of our strong beliefs. You seem to be a group of people who seem quite happy and satisfied with a program that worked for you, and you're dedicated to it. I admire that. I see that in Markos, too, and I also admire it in him. I want to be a part of it, too.

I've contacted Kim, our coach, btw. I haven't talked to her in over 3 months. I've also posted a question to Dr. Harley that Markos is particularly worried about. I think he's worried that I'm going to get frustrated and quit again.

Thank you for the reminder. I posted to him just now with a question.


What a beautiful suggestion! I guess the last time when it was just a photoshoot of me and him was when I was pregnant with our first child. I've made sure we get family photos done on a regular basis, and plenty of the children, but not many of just me and him.

Markos may like this idea, too.

I can't say if I would have continued the affair or not. I like to think that I would have ended it if he loved me for the very same reasons I ended it in reality -- because of my children. I was brought face to face with the reality that I was destroying their very world by destroying my marriage. And I couldn't allow myself to do that anymore.

I expect it's going to take a very long time. I am going to have to show him daily, for the rest of my life, that I choose him. I must give him a romantic relationship.

The first step would be to give him 15 hours UA time that he enjoys. We actually have 20 hours scheduled this week. I must fill those hours meeting the EN that mean the most to him and that would make the most deposits -- right now, I'm guessing it's affection and RC (He doesn't seem that interested in SF).

I must allow him to meet my EN. I cannot shut him out. On that note, I just now realized as I sit here staring at the screen that I still struggle with letting Markos meet my need for conversation -- something I reserved for OM. Oh God, forgive me, this must change. I have to completely open back up to Markos.

If I give him a romantic relationship, surely, over time, he will see that he means everything to me. Right?

Thank you, princessmeggy

Prica,

You said a few things I thought I would respond to. You said You do not have to do anything, there is not "must" in this program. Not in the sense I think you are stating it. This program for recovery is not about self-sacrifice, that just leads to resentment. What it is about is seeing things in a different light. Changing your perspectives not you. Does this make sense?

You have the OPPORTUNITY to meet his needs during the UA. You have the OPPORTUNITY to enjoy his company and any recreation you enjoy together. You have the OPPORTUNITY to smile, relax, and enjoy your family and that includes your H. You have the OPPORTUNITY to enjoy SF with him, and I would bet if YOU enjoy it, he will as well. He will have the same OPPORTUNITIES. You both should be grateful that you each have these OPPORTUNITIES. If you see things this way, you will find that you don't have to change, your perspectives will allow you to react and behave differently than you have in the past. Some of this takes practice, but practice can be fun . Practice laughing, practice sharing, and practice appreciating yourself, your children, and your H.

Yes, you do. How else is he going to know how to love you, forgive you, and make you part of his life if you don't open up? How else are you going to be able to love him, you shared with OM and that led to the attachment you have with OM. You did not share with Markos and that led to the detachment that occured. It is to your advantage to open up to him. It will help you more than him, but he will be helped as well.

Not sure this is right. If you give him a "loving" relationship my bet is that he will see that he has meaning in your life.

Do you know what I am talking about when I say "loving relationship"? Probably not, let me offer my standard lecture on love. When you married you promised to love one another for the rest of your lives. But, what were you really promising? You did not promise to feel "in-love", feelings come and go and people have a hard time controling them. No you and he promised to act in a "loving" manner toward one another. This is an action and actions you can control. You can decide that no matter what you act in a loving manner toward Markos and frankly it does not depend on who is watching, what he is doing or not doing, or what you FEEL. You can keep your promise no matter what. Decide to act loving toward him, and I think you will changes in how he reacts to you very soon. AT first he may not trust, but it doesn't matter you are going to do what you promised right?

Do you see what I focused on your comments to him in my earlier post. They damaged the concept that you could or did act in a loving manner. It mattered not whether you felt "inlove" with him, your actions bespoke of hate and disrespect.

Are you starting to see why POJA and radical honesty are good tools, they help; you act in a loving manner and they help both of you from developing resentment because you misunderstood something. Being honest, open and sharing your decisions protects each of you, it does not make you more vulnerable.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Rough day. Markos is angry and is ignoring me right now. He didn't pay the water bill. I found out that it was unpaid when I went to make the bottle for the baby and had no water this morning. He'd gotten a late notice a few days ago, didn't tell me, and the water was shut off.

I have lost count how many times this has happened in our marriage. I don't feel I can rely on him, and it gives me a very insecure feeling. I told him that I didn't feel like I could trust him, and that I felt insecure. That's when he started ignoring me.

And all this is my fault for not finding time for him to do the bills.

There was no negotiation that took my feelings into account. In fact, my feelings were ignored. Brushed aside. He acted as if it was absurd for me to be upset and that I should just trust him now. He'd come up with a plan, and was offended that his plan didn't make me feel better. There was no "negotiation" -- he told me what his plan was and told me to find a time for him to do it.

He has no understanding of how this makes me feel, and he's not willing to listen so that he CAN understand. He justs wants to "negotiate" by telling me his plan and having me make it happen. How can there be negotiation if he doesn't understand my side?

I've heard his plans before. He doesn't follow through, and the next thing I know the power or the water is being shut off again. I don't know why I'm supposed to trust his plan this time.

In response to his bafflement as to why his plan didn't automatically make things better for me, I responded with this:
"If you want to make me feel better then this is what it will take: You take the initiative and put your plan in place. Then stick with it. Show me that it's different this time.

In order to feel better, I need to feel secure. In order to feel secure, I need to trust that you will take care of me. And in order to trust you again, I need you to fix the problem and stick with it. That's what it will take if you want me to feel better.

If you don't want to do that, you don't have to. But it will be a lot harder for me to feel better, and I will continue to feel insecure. I hope you will consider it."

His response was to ignore me for hours again. It's been a very, very rough day.

Thank you for that perspective. I can see how it is very different than what I wrote. Things are less of an obligation and more of an opportunity.

I am feeling very obligated right now, though. This is going to take some work.

Yesterday, I was very open with him. I made a conscious effort to be and chatted his ear off. Which he seemed to enjoy.

Today, I was open with him about being hurt by him, and the result was him ignoring me. I hate it when he starts to ignore me. I start to feel panicky. Should I not tell him when he hurts me?

Yes, I think I've heard Markos talk similar to this. He called it "caring love" vs. "romantic love."

Caring love is what I do to protect him, care for him and mend wounds. But Romantic love is the goal, right?


Yes, I do. Part of me still revolts at the idea of POJA and RH, but that part is being silenced as I read and interact on here. I've been forcing myself to practice them, too, not allowing myself to fall into old habits of secrecy and independence. Keeping in mind that I am doing this to show care for Markos helps immensely.

How would you feel about paying the bills WITH him?

SOMEONE needs to pay the bills and it sounds like neither of you really, truly wants to deal with it...so it's easier to pass it off to the other person, who doesn't REALLY want to do it either, and then point the finger when it isn't done.

Could you POJA doing the bills TOGETHER?

Prica,

You stated You were correct to be honest with him and tell him how you feel and respond to certain things. Here is something for you to think about. Men are not bothered by silence, women more often than not are. Guess why he is being silent? Yup, to get to you. Relax, you did the right thing, it was his reponse that was wrong. You cannot make him do otherwise but you can avoid panic when you can see that he is not panicked at all.

Realize he is playing to his strength and your weakness by his silence. Don't worry about it right now. Men just don't mind it, so neither should you.

You also said Not so sure that it is. I think romantic love is wonderful, but it tends to wear off or come back in bursts. The one that is consistent, that makes people feel safe, that you can control is the "caring love". Your goal is that, but the result of you reaching your goal, is very likely to be romantic. Does that make sense?

God Bless,

JL

Do I understand this correctly, Prisca?

Markos did not pay the bill, and must at some point have ignored the reminder too, and you got up this morning to find there was no water to make the baby's bottle? And when you were upset and told him this made you feel insecure, he would not speak to you for hours?

Prisca, my understanding of his reading is that romantic love is certainly the explicit goal of Dr Harley's programme. His marriage rules are designed to keep romantic love present in a marriage at a high level for life.

I have caring love with my kids, but I want romantic love with my spouse. Dr and Mrs Harley claim to have that today, after many years of marriage.

Yes, that is correct.

He won, and he's bragging. Wonderful.

He ignored my requests to take the initiativeand show me he was reliable. He gave me the silent treatment until I gave in and figured out a schedule for him -- something he was perfectly capable of doing himself. It would have made a lot of love bank deposits for me. But I had to make the schedule for him.

Is it wrong for me to expect someone to do something they say they're going to do? He said he wanted to do the bills. So I expect him to be able to do it. If he needs it, I expect him to be able to say "Is it alright with you if I take 15 minutes every night to go over the bills?" He certainly doesn't need to let bills slide just because I haven't figured out a time for him to work on them. He's an engineer! He doesn't need me to hold his hand and walk him through it. He's got the brains for this!

Whenever he has asked me if I'm alright with him working on the bills, I have agreed to it.

I'm too angry to sit here. I'm going for a drive.

Of course the goal here is romantic love. That is the measure of real recovery in MB standards.

I have to agree with Prisca about the water bill. I expect my H to take care of the bills and do not like surprises. That is part of his protection and care for me. I can't tell you how upsetting it was for me once when our garbage pick up was cancelled for non payment. Even though it was an honest mistake [the auto draft just quit auto drafting] it was upsetting to me.

For Markos, I would make sure that doesn't happen again. That is very scary, especially to a woman with small children at home. You can make huge lovebank deposits by making sure she is safe and secure.

I didn't get to leave. He has spent the last 20 minutes yelling at me. He tried to kick me out of the house, yelling "Get out of my life, you're a f*cking freeloader! Leave! Get out!"

Now he's gone.

I think your H is angry at himself for screwing up, and he's acting out and unfairly taking it out on you.

OTOH, as an H, I can tell you that we don't like to be continuously reminded about our mistakes by our dear Ws. That can get annoying REALLY fast. We're not perfect, and mistakes will happen, even those that in the first instance could look quite thoughtless. What happens afterwards, i.e. how we treat each other after those mistakes makes all the difference.

I'm sure Markos realised his mistake and how important this was to you when you first pointed this out, and I'm also sure that his grumpy behaviour had a lot to do about he felt about his mistake as well as you reminding him about it. That likely made the situation a lot more volatile than it needed to be.