That's a broad generalization. I know one of my best friends has little interest in OS. He never really has. Even when we were teenagers, he just didn't dig it.



You are absolutely right. A renter and/or a freeloader would absolutely do that.

On the contrary, a lot of women will perform OS before marriage because, for them, it involves a LACK of intimacy, not an "incredible level."

How about not putting the cart before the horse, and meeting "Phase 1" completely?

HoldHerHand:

Why? Seems to me that if this process actually worked, then phsae 2 should be very common and well documented.

That doesn't matter one bit. Spouses change their tastes all the time. Just because she might have done it at one time does not mean she likes it NOW. She might have found it disgusting THEN and not said anything. The right thing to do is to STOP doing anything she finds disgusting.

Cemar, I am not sure what your wife's religious affiliation is....but I can tell you that I have counseled with a lot of girls who did OS because they thought they could do that and still be "a virgin." It made me sad to hear that, but a lot of girls who want to wait for the wedding night to have sex think that OS is not sex.

That aside, I can tell you that focusing on a certain act will only add to your frustration. You want a guarantee....but there are no guarantees. There aren't....anyone who tells you a b and c will always mean d no matter what.....is LYING.

However, I can guarantee that you don't get there if you don't start somewhere. You don't have anything to lose, right?

The solution is to find ways of making love that you BOTH enjoy. Expecting her to do something she doesn't like only means you want her to suffer on your behalf, which means you don't care about her. Apparently, she does not find OS pleasurable, which means it should be written off the schedule.

The fact that she used to do it is not in the least bit relevant NOW. All that is relevant is what she finds pleasurable NOW.

Premarital sex is a sin.

So perhaps this "change" is a natural consequence of sin.

The hypothetical man you speak of had a choice whether to take the bait or not. It wasn't a trap...he could have kept his "rod" in his pants where it belonged and he'd have gotten married to the supposed "cold" horrible woman that won't ever give him OS none-the-wiser.

Just sayin'

Mr. W

**edit**

The purpose of this website is to discuss Marriage Builders! If you can help this poster learn MB concepts, please feel free to post. If not, then refrain from posting. But do not disrupt this thread with personal philosophies.

Any question, shoot me an email.

I did. I can explain it no better. You cannot change chemicals. Romantic love makes it to where the chemicals matter very, very little. You cannot change a woman's chemicals unless you want to have her taking hormone injections and who knows what else.

You cannot change her physiology - no one can. It'd be easier to change your chemicals so that sex is no longer a drive. That's a solution to your marriage problems right there, but would you consider that?

And I'm sorry - but as a woman, Oral Sex is not intimacy, it is one act I can completely detach from. I can absolutely loath a guy and give him head. Been there, done that. So she used to go down on you, and now she doesn't want to. Maybe a bait and switch, maybe she actually used to like it and now she doesn't care for it. Maybe you don't keep clean enough or maybe your semen tastes rank. Who knows. She doesn't like it - fixating on something that she hates isn't going to fix your problem.

Proper implementation of Phase one removes the need for any of what you identify in Phase two. A romantic marriage IS a passionate marriage. Your ideal marriage is the marriage I live in every day and I'm trying to tell you how to get it.

I'm sorry I can't seem to explain it better.

Again I'm bashing my head against the wall and I know better.

I'm glad my posts helped others, though.

This thread should come with a warning:

DO NOT READ WHILE EATING LUNCH.

I'm feeling ill.

I hope it's okay to say this: Thank you so so much Mr W. I wanted to be that blunt and was too chicken.

Vibrissa:

Actually, most marriage therapy does include focusing on changing the womans chemicals, and it can be done without drugs. Why do you think that so many recommend that the women start an exercise routine.

As for the OS not being intimacy for the women, so what. Her focus is meet the husbands intimacy, and the husband is to foucs on hers. Both spouses get to define intimacy, not HER.

Also, desiring to meet somenone needs is not desire, it is love. Desire is the physical want of another person. I know that LD peope want this to be desire, but it is not.

Okay, and what are YOU doing to meet your wife's need for intimacy, or to meet any of her needs at all for that matter?

Have you actually read anything on this site Cemar? It is absolutely NOT part of MB to tell someone that they have to meet their spouses needs at all costs, even if they find it revolting to do so. Expecting your wife to do something that she detests and that makes her sick will only kill her love for you even more and make her less willing to meet your needs than she already is.

writer1:

I never said such a thing. What I said is that both spouses get to determine what initmacy is, not just the wife. Apparently, my intimacy is not relevant. Apparently, the women gets to determine everything.

No, your wife doesn't get to determine what your definition of intimacy is.

But she does get to determine what she is and is not willing to do with her own body, and what she is and is not willing to put into her mouth.

Exactly. And OS is disgusting to her so it won't create intimacy. NEXT!

Thank you for this by the way VB. Its nice to be reminded of what happens when you are in love, and where desire comes from.

As Mr W points out, what would have been the reason to marry someone if the gaurantee of needs were not there? In the case where sexual needs were being met prior to the M, yes it was manipulative, but have you ever told a women no because you were mature enough at the time to realize that it wasn't yet time? I have allways felt it was important to have the control you are seeking cemar, and not being manipulated, once I realized that I had a weakness to allow it.

As your experience shows you once those needs are met, your judgement is clouded. Could it just be that reason it is a sin to have sex outside marriage, and that the understanding that of other needs were more important from the start?

Im not talking from the standpoint of being an innocent pup, I learned this like many the hard way. I started having sex regularly at 16, and it was like God opened up to me then, and taught me what relationships were all about. I had,(maybe still have), a high Drive, seeing sex as the greatest example of submission and closeness, and I have not lost respect for that, or probably ever will. If I see it from my own drive emotional needs point of view, I will definatly miss the boat, in creating desire. It is common and natural to be frustrated when this drive is not met, being it runs so strong in men, but it also can blind us to the big picture, and cause a women to resort to the opinion that its what we are all about, if that is truly how we act. At some point we have to see like all needs it controls us, and understand others have needs too.

You state that when the children came, her drive to nurture your needs left. This was also something I experienced when I was 18, because I was married and had a son. What could be more natural? Women are more natural nurturers, in nature and as the roles they ussually fill in life. The man who doesn't understand this as part of marriage can feel slighted or tricked into marriage, not seeing her interests shifted, and if he doesn't give his wife that break, he will become a very complicated second child to her.

Look at it as her meeting your needs before children as how she will meet thier needs after. It should be a good sign as to the future and care of the children, and welcomed also if its one or the other. Of course it doesn't have to be that extreme, and both needs can be still met, but in the big picture, adults can reason, and children can't. The childrens needs come first. If the male witholds that understanding from his wife, that she has for children, demanding his be met just like before, well its no wonder they will lose respect. Its hard for someone to submit to anything they don't respect and trust, just like you would not submit to a child having a tantrum, although you understand its part of development.

If you care for someone in a way that shows them you are in control, they will respect you, and not see you as needy and dependant. We are all needy in reality, but needs shift and grow as we mature, as we understand thier nature, and where they come from.

Food for thought cemar. Do you really need your wifes extreme example of desire by OS? Or do you need someone to love? This is at the root of romantic Love that brings desire, that someone loves me even when I am weak and frail. That kind of love gets respect, and none more than from those who recieve it when they feel they are not worthy. Its a source you will do anything to maintain a connection to, and your desire will be there to maintain it.

Your wife has admitted she is not naturally driven anymore for sex. You can get testosterzone therapy for her, which helps womens sex drive and aggresive tendencys, but that can backfire also. The soft and emotional women you have allready is a source of tenderness you can learn from.

No disrespect to you, and I know where your coming from beleive me, but time to nut up and take a deep breath. The strength you show in tenderness to your wives needs and sensitivities, those you must be seeing as weaknesses, will pay off in ways you can't even fathom at this time. Probably the deep probing of her mind and emotions, and the intimacy of that, will be the most rewarding sexual experiance you will ever know.

But you can't be afraid to love her first, thats what being a man really is OMO. I think others would agree.