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This is how I ended up having such a hatred for my father in my adult life. He came to live with us, and no matter how nasty he was to me, if I asked grandparents to do something about it, they would say I wasn't respecting him enough, that I needed more time with him.

And he continued to belittle me.

And call me a child.

Protect your son, please.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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Originally Posted by Mulan
1) Go back to court and see if you can get, at the very least, supervised visitation on grounds of emotional abuse of your Son by your XWH and his OW. I don't care how much XWH will kick and scream. That is NOT your concern. Your Son is. Do it.

2) Shut down communication between you and XWH. The two of you are DIVORCED. (And you are re-married - ?) If you say you have to stay in communication "for the sake of Son" - well, as somebody said, how's that workin' for ya? And more importantly, how's it workin' for your Son?

3) Immediately look into Parallel Parenting versus "co-parenting". Again: Co-parenting is for Married Couples. You cannot have it both ways. Look what is happening to your son when you try to "co-parent" with a man to whom you are not married and who was happy to blow up your family. It can't be done. For evidence, just look at your Son.

Mulan (and :)ingWoman)
I have been reading along on this thread helpless and perplexed and frustrated. The advise above (and the paragraphs leading to it) makes a lot of sense to me. As a young boy I found myself in some abusive situations and, to me, Mulan's post accurately portrayed what your SW's little boy is going through. I'm not blaming my parents and I know they did the best they could, but I do think if they had protected me better I would not have wound up marrying someone who would neglect and abuse me emotionally. SW I hope you can find the strength to take Mulan's words to heart and put a plan in place that will keep your son from being subjected to the abusive nature of your wxh (and his nasty companion).

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I think, SW, that if I were you, I would call your lawyer and just ask for a consultation. Make a list of questions. Ask what your son's rights are. Ask what his father's rights are. Ask how a counselor's opinion would hold up. That's where I would start.


Sooly

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Originally Posted by Soolee
I think, SW, that if I were you, I would call your lawyer and just ask for a consultation. Make a list of questions. Ask what your son's rights are. Ask what his father's rights are. Ask how a counselor's opinion would hold up. That's where I would start.

This is great advice.


Me: BS 51
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Originally Posted by Soolee
I think, SW, that if I were you, I would call your lawyer and just ask for a consultation. Make a list of questions. Ask what your son's rights are. Ask what his father's rights are. Ask how a counselor's opinion would hold up. That's where I would start.


great advice. Not sure what state you are in but the lawyer would know what is best in this case. Also in most states the division of children and youth services has a number you can call and ask questions. I have utilized this but i also now how a friend who works there. They would be able to help to an extent as well.


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Originally Posted by Mulan
And I am wondering why you have so much contact with XWH. Getting an IM for anything that *has* to be arranged regarding your son, and speaking to XWH only in case of the direst emergency, would almost certainly go a long way towards shutting some of this down.

The part of your post where he calls you, in the presence of the homewrecker, about what size clothes Son wears just sounds like a guy flaunting his harem. Again, sickening. Shut it down. Others use an IM and so can you.

Quote
He said, 'If I ask to call you he will call me a momma's boys.'

What was your response to this?

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XH NEVER asks me one single thing about ds's schooling. Ever.

Originally Posted by Mulan
There should be ZERO discussion on this. This man is not your husband. That means he's on his own as far as being Son's father and no longer has your help and support. He forfeited that right when he left the marriage.

Again, shut it down. I think this is 90% of the problem. You are only allowing your Son to be crushed more and more in the middle by your keeping in contact with your XWH.


I homeschool ds. If XH wants to know anything about ds's school he would have to ask me. I am not offering information. I was merely pointing out that he doesn't have any interest in ds's school work.

I am really confused by your suggestion that my contact with XH is causing 90% of problems. My only contact with XH is when ds comes home upset and I text XH to express to him how horrible those things are upsetting our son. Yes he called me asking what size jeans ds wears. But RARELY does he call me for anything. We rarely even lay eyes on each other at pick up drop off. I THOUGHT that was part of me trying to protect my son.
Originally Posted by Mulan
I would recommend:

1) Go back to court and see if you can get, at the very least, supervised visitation on grounds of emotional abuse of your Son by your XWH and his OW. I don't care how much XWH will kick and scream. That is NOT your concern. Your Son is. Do it. I have NO concerns about how anything I do will affect my XH. I have an appt with my attorney for next week and will do what I can, but I can nearly guarantee you all that nothing can be done. I know the district well. And the current mindset is that fathers need to be involved in their children's lifes and mothers need to not try and alienate father from child.

2) Shut down communication between you and XWH. The two of you are DIVORCED. (And you are re-married - ?) If you say you have to stay in communication "for the sake of Son" - well, as somebody said, how's that workin' for ya? And more importantly, how's it workin' for your Son? Again confused how I am suppose to have no contact with XH and still protect my son. I can promise you that a judge will NOT look kindly upon me jerking XH back to court with no discussion first of what my concerns are.

3) Immediately look into Parallel Parenting versus "co-parenting". Again: Co-parenting is for Married Couples. You cannot have it both ways. Look what is happening to your son when you try to "co-parent" with a man to whom you are not married and who was happy to blow up your family. It can't be done. For evidence, just look at your Son. Again confused by what you think I should be doing. I am not co-parenting with XH. But to fully Parallel parenting would be for me to tell ds 'what goes on there is what goes on here. Talk to your father about it. How can I do that and try to protect him from his father's mistreatment.

That's the best I got. Just some things to think about. But I'll bet a lot of this can be traced straight back to trying to have a family relationship with a man who is NOT your husband. It never, ever works, no matter what people try to tell you. Be married or be divorced. You cannot have it both ways


Again I do not know why you think I am trying to have a family relationship with XH. We are not even friendly. Barely civil when the rare occasion happens that we come face to face.

It seems to me you are giving me conflicting advice. One the one hand don't tell ds to tell his dad how he feels because he will be punished. (btw, he isn't punished by his dad for telling him how he feels. His dad just ignores it) Would the alternative be to tell ds to just suck it up and deal with it? Short of taking this back to court I have NO idea what you think I should be doing exactly. I have next to no chance of getting supervised visitation based upon my XH's treatment of our son.

Maybe the counselor and my attorney will have some ideas.[/color]










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It depends on the jurisdiction, but for the most part I think SW is right that going back to court is likely futile. AFAIK her husband has no known history of abuse. I'd be shocked if a court ordered supervised visitation based on what she's described. I mean, sure, talk to the lawyer, but bottom line: It is not illegal nor is it (generally) considered child abuse to be a jerk to your kids.

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Originally Posted by kerala
It depends on the jurisdiction, but for the most part I think SW is right that going back to court is likely futile. AFAIK her husband has no known history of abuse. I'd be shocked if a court ordered supervised visitation based on what she's described. I mean, sure, talk to the lawyer, but bottom line: It is not illegal nor is it (generally) considered child abuse to be a jerk to your kids.

TY! And I highly suspect this is what my attorney will tell me. At this point I mainly want to hear from the attorney at what age ds can choose to stop visitation. XH seems to think it is 18. I doubt that, but don't know what the real age is...

I have a friend whose 14 year old has refused to go to see her dad for 4 months. He won't press the issue though because he owes 1000s in cs.

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I think by what is often called "mature minor" stage - usually around 16 - kids' desires are granted much more weight.

The thing is, courts are inherently conservative, and looking to hedge their bets. The more conservatve (read: cautious and long-term) approach is to do everything to facilitate some kind of continued relationship with both parents. Even if things are difficult for a period.

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Originally Posted by kerala
I think by what is often called "mature minor" stage - usually around 16 - kids' desires are granted much more weight.

The thing is, courts are inherently conservative, and looking to hedge their bets. The more conservatve (read: cautious and long-term) approach is to do everything to facilitate some kind of continued relationship with both parents. Even if things are difficult for a period.

I think you are right. Hopefully though if I continue to document everything, if ds continues to NOT want to go I can get something done.

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I agree. I'd still want to hear from the lawyer how much weight a counselor's opinion would hold, though.

SW...I think if there is no proven abuse, you're probably going to have a hard time having visitation reduced or supervised.

Where did your son get the verbiage about 'striking fear in my heart'? Did he overhear you and your husband talking? That is not typical wording for a child that age.

Last edited by Soolee; 03/28/11 02:35 PM.

Sooly

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Originally Posted by Soolee
I agree. I'd still want to hear from the lawyer how much weight a counselor's opinion would hold, though.

SW...I think if there is no proven abuse, you're probably going to have a hard time having visitation reduced or supervised.

Where did your son get the verbiage about 'striking fear in my heart'? Did he overhear you and your husband talking? That is not typical wording for a child that age.

And not only do I think chances are slim of getting visitation reduced, I also do not want to stir up a hornets nest about visitation because XH has so little now.

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Originally Posted by Soolee
Where did your son get the verbiage about 'striking fear in my heart'? Did he overhear you and your husband talking? That is not typical wording for a child that age.

Well....my son has an unusually big vocabulary. However, I asked him just now where he heard that and he said his video game. cool


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In some states it's 12...you would have to look it up.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

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I have Googled it. Can't find much AR law.

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Again:

I N T E R M E D I A R Y

More than one, if needed.

Let the IM cover everything - EVERYTHING - including the homeschooling.

Throwing up your hands and making excuse after excuse and saying "Sorry, but I just can't do anything" only throws the burden squarely on your son. It sure seems to me like the adults in this situation have decided that Son will just have to suck it up and find a way to fix this on their own, because they're not going to change a thing.

Again:

I N T E R M E D I A R Y

This would get your son out of his impossible position of being crushed between you, his father and the homewrecker. REMOVE YOURSELF from this unholy threesome and take a huge load off of your son.

How to do that?

I N T E R M E D I A R Y

And please don't tell me the courts won't allow it. That's baloney and just another excuse. Many, many divorced parents on MB use IMs in order to protect their children from situations just like this one. Your XWH could still call you in case of genuine emergency. You could even get a separate phone that is only for him to call.

But that's up to you. It is not your son's responsibility to make the adults in this awful situation happy, but all of you are pressuring him to do so. That's not acceptable by any stretch. If you cannot see what that's doing to him, that I don't know what else I could possibly say.



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I found this.

Quote
3. At what age can my child decide who he or she wants to live with?
In Arkansas, there is no specific age when a child can decide who he or she wants to live with. The court has the final say until the child turns 18 years of age. In most cases, the circumstances of the situation will matter as much or more than the child�s age. The judge is normally given almost unlimited latitude in how much weight to give to the child�s wishes.

In some cases, the judge may decide to talk with the child privately �in chambers�. Parents sometimes are excluded so that the child can speak freely without fear of displeasing one parent or the other. It is worth noting that what a child tells or relates to a judge in chambers may not necessarily be kept confidential. No one, not even the judge, can guarantee that what a child says will remain confidential; indeed, the child�s statement(s) may play an important part in the judge�s decision and as such would normally become a matter of record.


So all you really have to do is get a good judge, from what it looks like...


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

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Originally Posted by Mulan
Again:

I N T E R M E D I A R Y

More than one, if needed.

Let the IM cover everything - EVERYTHING - including the homeschooling.

Throwing up your hands and making excuse after excuse and saying "Sorry, but I just can't do anything" only throws the burden squarely on your son. It sure seems to me like the adults in this situation have decided that Son will just have to suck it up and find a way to fix this on their own, because they're not going to change a thing.

Again:

I N T E R M E D I A R Y

This would get your son out of his impossible position of being crushed between you, his father and the homewrecker. REMOVE YOURSELF from this unholy threesome and take a huge load off of your son.

How to do that?

I N T E R M E D I A R Y

And please don't tell me the courts won't allow it. That's baloney and just another excuse. Many, many divorced parents on MB use IMs in order to protect their children from situations just like this one. Your XWH could still call you in case of genuine emergency. You could even get a separate phone that is only for him to call.

But that's up to you. It is not your son's responsibility to make the adults in this awful situation happy, but all of you are pressuring him to do so. That's not acceptable by any stretch. If you cannot see what that's doing to him, that I don't know what else I could possibly say.

I agree with the above and I am not asking my son to make me happy! I am sorry to be dense, but how will an intermediary fix the the issues we have?

The problems we have are from ds being unhappy while he is at his dad's. Are you suggesting I get a third party to listen to my son instead of ME listening to my son? I guess I am just not following.

XH and I do not have contact. We barely even lay eyes on each other at drop off pick ups.

I have hardly thrown my hands up with excuse after excuse. I have taken him to the doctor, and to a counselor. I am documenting the way he describes how he is treated at his dads. I am consulting with my attorney next week.

I just don't see how an intermediary will fix my son's problems. How will that change the way he is treated at his dads. Are you suggesting I not be told of it by son? That I should not KNOW what is going on with son?

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Originally Posted by karmasrose
I found this.

Quote
3. At what age can my child decide who he or she wants to live with?
In Arkansas, there is no specific age when a child can decide who he or she wants to live with. The court has the final say until the child turns 18 years of age. In most cases, the circumstances of the situation will matter as much or more than the child�s age. The judge is normally given almost unlimited latitude in how much weight to give to the child�s wishes.

In some cases, the judge may decide to talk with the child privately �in chambers�. Parents sometimes are excluded so that the child can speak freely without fear of displeasing one parent or the other. It is worth noting that what a child tells or relates to a judge in chambers may not necessarily be kept confidential. No one, not even the judge, can guarantee that what a child says will remain confidential; indeed, the child�s statement(s) may play an important part in the judge�s decision and as such would normally become a matter of record.


So all you really have to do is get a good judge, from what it looks like...

The above is for residency....not sure if it is the same for visitation.

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Hi SW,

Reading the responses, I really feel for you in this latest incident. It�s like his �betrayal radar� is so sensitive right now that even the little things trigger huge reactions. Like the ocean after a storm- it looks immediately calm on the surface, but it takes a long time for all the latent energy of the water to go down. The slightest provocation can stir it right back up. Who knows how long it will take to calm his �betrayal radar� back to normal.

Also, I�d like to echo the suggestion to ask the counselor about Asperger�s . My son has autistic tendencies. Though my research leads me to believe he is not autistic, per se, because he is quite social, he still exhibits behaviors and some of the coping methods I discovered for auties/aspies really help him. And me too, lol!

Finally, I�m curious about the below comment. I agree with you that without documented proof of abuse (hm, the OW comment about spanking� do you have documentation of that? I agree with spanking, personally, but many courts don�t� that may be an angle you can use).

Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
And not only do I think chances are slim of getting visitation reduced, I also do not want to stir up a hornets nest about visitation because XH has so little now.

But what I don�t understand is why the concern about XH having so little? Seems like you�d want him to have less. What do you think would happen if you sent DS there less often? Like, on the next visitation tell him, I�m sorry, DS has ABC function and can�t come this week? What would XH do?

And is that, possibly, a way to entice DS to be more respectful of them when he�s in XH�s house? For example, �DS, if you get through this next visitation w/o sassing your dad and OW, I will see about cancelling the next one (or insert his favorite activity). I am NOT trying to justify how badly they appear to be treating him. But I wonder if he was less sassy would it be easier to get along. This is an excellent life lesson, and he will need to learn it eventually.

{{{SW}}}


"If you will stop feeding your feelings, then they will stop controlling you" -Joyce Meyer
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