I gather the fear is that XH would go for MORE visitation.

Generally, it's not a good idea to flout court orders.

Yes, this is what I meant. I honestly would not care if XH saw ds NONE if ds didn't care (and he doesnt seem to). If I rock the boat with regards to visitation, XH could go back to court and get standard visitation. Right now it is exactly like I negotiated to fit our lifestyle and activities. For instance, ds doesn't have Saturday sleepovers at his dad's so that ds never has to miss a Sunday morning service. I have all our religious services listed out in our visitation schedule...if something falls on XH's time---I get ds anyway.

I've thought I should try to get ds to not sass or be more respectful of his dad...but Mulan acts as if I am sentencing ds to torture and abuse by doing that. This thread has been in my mind for days. I want to do what is best for ds....and although all of us agree that the way ds is being treated is despicable...I do not believe it rises to the level considered to be child abuse by a court of law. As someone said, 'being a jerk of a father is not against the law.'

Ds is now throwing up. 2 nights in a row. I am nearly sure it is nerves. He asked me today if he could go back to see his therapist early...:) A good sign I think that he feels comfortable with him. He goes back Friday morning.

Being respectful doesn't mean being a doormat. You can teach your son to learn to speak his truth-his boundaries, without being sassy about that. In our house, it is perfectly legitimate for our children to identify and express their feelings to us. My older one is pretty emotionally sensitive, and will come right out and tell us when we've hurt his feelings, or he's feeling frustrated about something that happened between us.

We don't tolerate sass, but we do tolerate rational conversation. I would not consider a statement of "I'm feeling sad right now" to be disrespectful or sassy. Or, something like, "I get scared when there's yelling." I don't see the disrespect or sassiness in that. Or "I'm throwing up in the evenings before I have to visit you." It's a sharing of a fact. Again, I'm not sure how this translates into being sassy.

There's a difference between teaching your son to express his feelings and boundaries nicely and teaching him that he isn't allowed to have his feelings at all, or that somehow his feelings aren't legitimate. I'm sure that you don't feel good if someone were to tell you that what you are feeling isn't legitimate? So, why would we expect that our children would feel safe and valued when we are telling them that what they are feeling and their experiences are wrong or not valid?

I don't think he is being told by anyone that his feelings are not valid. He talked to his dad on the phone 2 nights ago. I thought he did a great job of articulating his feelings to his dad..he was adamant but respectful except for the part where he said, 'I'm tired of this conversation and I'm hanging up now!' And he did...his dad called back and they talked a bit more and then ds said, 'I'm tired of this conversation dad--can we hang up now?' Much better...and I told him all that.

XH told him that he would be watching for the OW's son doing things against ds. Ds told him, 'I don't believe you will do anything if you do see it!'

Several things like that....after the phone call we had supper and about an hour later ds threw up. And he threw up the next night too.

When I've mentioned that I told ds to tell his dad how he feels about stuff Mulan says that she can't understand why I would do that because I am doing it knowing ds will be punished. I don't know that. I dont think ds is being punished for speaking his mind.

And I do believe I should teach him to be respectful to his dad 'even though he doesn't deserve it.' I also tell him that I HATE that his dad is often treating him so poorly and allowing OW and her son to treat him bad too...I explain the court system to him and that my hands are tied to some extent BUT that he should keep telling me whatever he wants to tell me because if things get worse I want to know. He asked me to talk to his dad about that last incident....oh I just remembered the other night I heard his dad say, 'I will keep an eye on things but you are going to have to stop running home and telling your mom every little thing that happens.' Ds interupted him and said forcefully, 'So I shouldn't tell my mom what is going on!!? Is that what you are saying Dad, that I should NOT tell my MOM what is going on?' Well that stopped XH dead in his tracks.

Tonight is visitation....ds is already dreading it. And I am doing my best to put a good spin on it.

'I will keep an eye on things but you are going to have to stop running home and telling your mom every little thing that happens.' Ds interupted him and said forcefully, 'So I shouldn't tell my mom what is going on!!? Is that what you are saying Dad, that I should NOT tell my MOM what is going on?' Well that stopped XH dead in his tracks.

Sounds like he was on speaker phone and caught on that you were listening?

I also tell him that I HATE that his dad is often treating him so poorly and allowing OW and her son to treat him bad too

SW...it is just my humble opinion, and I definitely don't want to upset you, but the above sounds off to me. Do you see the above statement to your son as helpful or necessary in some way?

Do you process this as a way to validate for him what he needs to hear?

Do you think there is any way that you can change the visitation so that your son is not exposed to the OW and her son? So that he has his father to himself, and so that they can navigate and build a healthier relationship without her presence/influence?

He was on speaker phone and it was no secret I could hear. He ALWAYS puts it on speaker phone because HE wants to. I have never asked him to. Or did you mean XH caught on that I was listening? I don't know about that. He knows ds prefers speaker phone, so I would assume he would assume I was listening.


So confused. When ds comes home and tells me he hates his dad's house and then lists all the things that happened that made him feel bad...what am I SUPPOSE to say? I honestly want to know. Sometimes I FEEL like saying, 'son, suck it up.' But I want him to be validated that he IS being treated badly. If it were ANYONE else treating him that way it would NOT happen again. It isn't as if I draw this stuff out of him. I am not just sitting around waiting for a chance to say, 'oh poor baby, your daddy is so mean!'

But what else could I say that WOULD be helpful or necessary? I listen quietly while he recounts things....I don't punctuate everything with my feelings....but in the end I do hug him and tell him I hate that things are bad for him there.


Well, yes that would be ideal. Unfortunately, *I* can't change a court order. XH gets to be the parent when he has ds for visitation and I have no control over what he does or who ds is exposed to (barring dangerous or illegal situations). Lately, I have asked repeatedly that he just spend his 78 hours a month with ds without the OW---he continues with OW and her son there. Ds has asked repeatedly (lately) that OW and her son NOT come over. XH did spend Friday evening and Sat with ds alone, but Sunday she was there again. Oddly enough, former neighbors tell me that OW and her son are NEVER (or rarely) there when ds is not.

XH told me via text the other day to 'get used to it, because OW and her son aren't going anywhere.'

We have to leave the house in 15 mins to get ds to his dad's. He has turned sour and when I ak him what is wrong he tells me, 'I don't want to go to dads!!' I've largely ignored/changed the subject....

Makes me sick though.

I feel badly that you're in this situation. I will elaborate more on my thoughts tomorrow.

Oddly enough, former neighbors tell me that OW and her son are NEVER (or rarely) there when ds is not.

That is strange.

I think the idea is to make DS get used to it...?

Not following you...are you saying *I* should be making ds 'get used to' being at his dad's house?

No, I mean when it was said that OW and OWDS was usually not around when DS wasn't around, that your XWH was probably trying to make him get used to OW and OWDS if they usually only show up when he's around.

Well, things did not go well last night. OW and son weren't there and it still didn't go well.

15 mins after I dropped ds off, he texts me. Says his dad won't let him go to the neighbors house to play. I said, 'i'm sorry son, love you.'

A few minutes later, 'he is making me give him my Itouch so he can read my texts.'

I said, 'maybe you will have a good supper.'

Few minutes later. 'Everytime I text you he makes me give it to him and then makes fun of me for being a tattle tale.'

I said, "i'm sorry. can you go outside and play?'

A few minutes later (I am inside a store shopping) he texts, 'Help! I ran to neighbors!'

So I texted back what happened and he said his dad kept reading his texts and then cut off the wifi.

Later I found out he had been put in a corner in his room because he wouldn't hand over the Itouch, so he sneaked out the back door and bailed over the fence and ran to the neighbors.

When I read he had ran to the neighbors I left the store and drove to the neighbors. They were just astonished that XH is being such a jerk...I told ds to go to the car and I'd be right there...talked to the neighbors for a minute...they want to know how long will the law force this child to go see XH.

So I told ds he was just going to have to make the most of it---I walked him to the door and XH answers. Just looks at us. I said, 'What is going on?' He says,'I don't know.' I said, 'you don't know? I get a frantic text from our son that he has ran to the neighbors...what is going on?'

Well, we spent 5 minutes or so discussing it...ds told him he didn't want to stay and that he didn't like being made fun of. XH said he had to stay. So I told ds goodbye and that it was only 1 1/2 hours more until he would be home.

My brother seems to be CERTAIN that ds can stop going when he is 12. I am not sure. I think he is, like many people do, mixing up where a child LIVES with visitation. Two different issues...but probably should not be since the same issues make it an issue in the first place.

SW...

Is there any possibility that XH and OW are using your son as a sitter for the younger boy? Just wondering.

I don't know what to tell you. Let us know what the counselor and lawyer say.

SW...

Here is a link to AR law online:

http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/arcode/Default.asp

And the specific law you need is 9-13-108, (title 9, subtitle 2, chapter 13, subchapter 1), which reads:

9-13-108. Visitation -- Preference of child.

In an action under this subchapter concerning a person's right to visitation with a minor child, the circuit court may consider the preferences of the child if the child is of a sufficient age and capacity to reason, regardless of chronological age.

Thank you! This is very helpful.

My neighbor believes that XH doesn't know what to do with ds. Remember prior to our divorce XH was VERY uninvolved with me AND our son. He was always off on 4-wheeler trips, or NASCAR trips, or Vegas, or fishing, or skiing. He never (rarely) took us with him.

I was just wondering if XH and OW go off in another room, shut the door, and leave the boys to entertain each other. Just wondering.

Like you said, he could be acquiescing to whatever OW says, believing she has more experience with children. Did you ever get a background check done on her? Is that possible to do?

I don't know, SW...

You have to abide by the agreement for now or you could be held in contempt and it could all backfire.

I would check with your lawyer. Again...make a list...

Maybe a statement from the neighbors and extended family would be valuable?

Find out what the counselor thinks about visitation and how it's affecting your son.

Find out if XH can be forced to attend parenting classes, maybe.

I just. don't. know.

Ds says they do not go off into another room and leave the boys alone.

I think he is just a terrible father and thinks he can create a family with OW and her son.

SW I know this whole thing is hard and wearying, but can you see how an intermediary would have been great last night, to de-escalate these situations? Instead of you going over to the neighbors and all. I don't know much about IMs but like if it was an older guy your ex had respect for, you could call him when this stuff happens, and let him go as a calming presence. He could calmly show your ex solely by example how to de-escalate these situations, just like you do at home. You had 11 years and lots of practice to become a great mom, but your ex got a late start.

And your boy at his most calm and easy to parent at this point in his life.