I wasn't necessarily talking about SF. I was talking about the feeling of intimacy. Intimacy is more than SF.

I'll bow to others experiences of whether or not SF should happen right now. I have no clue about that.

I don't want to make excuses, but I think I need to address my depression and lack of motivation before I can take on the task of working the MB plan. I can't even consider making changes to my life without having a panic attack thinking about how difficult it will be to rearrange schedules and expectations. I have no energy to do this right now and as much as I know you all want to help, I am only getting more sad and frustrated by my own inaction.

Perhaps once I figure out how to make myself get off my [censored] and do something, then I can start following this plan.

BH and I have been chatting the last 15 minutes or so and I have been sharing my frustration with myself. This isn't a "woe is me" ... I am just incapable of doing MB right now - I need to start smaller.

Athena, are you on anti-depressants?

I'll say this again: It is NOT fair to Helo that you are not sharing your honest thoughts with him! This is creating a stumbling block for you! Do you not see this?

Athena, did you do the EN worksheet recently and share w/ Helo?

Prisca is awesome. Good luck.

"This isn't a "woe is me" ... "

Ohhhhh, but it IS.

I talked to my dr last week and she is weaning me off of them in the hopes I can get some energy back and not feel so detached from my life.

I really believe my depression is holding me back. Whereas I started on medication because I was suicidal, now my depression is less likely to be a chemical imbalance and more situational. My dr says meds don't help with situational depression - I need behavioral changes for that. And from where I am right now, MB is too big a step.

BH and I wrote a big "reboot" plan for me a month or so ago and I followed through for the first week and then lost my focus/control. It was a rigid and unforgiving schedule that as soon as I started to miss a few items, I lost momentum and couldn't get it back. I need to start small and work my way up to bigger accomplishments.

I know I am capable of so much - I have seen myself do some amazing things and be very committed. I know you are disappointed in and bewildered by my behaviour - hey, me too.

He did his and shared it with me. I still haven't done mine. Probably because I dread revealing that SF is high on my needs list, it isn't the way I like it, but I'm ok with the current frequency because I don't want it at all.

He has told me he doesn't like criticism (and he takes any comment that doesn't paint him in a perfect light as criticism). So I take the cowards way out and avoid telling him.

Also high on my list is "attractive spouse" and again, know that won't go over well.

Why would you feel intimate towards someone you already devalued and disrespected and discounted.
Of course you feel nothing for him.
You will when you realize what a prize you have. You just have not realized that yet.
H=prize
OM=nightmare that looks yummy but is toxic to all you hold dear down deep in your soul....kids....family.....and yes......spouse.

Athena, first, I would like to advise you to contact the Harleys. I really truly believe that you will only benefit from it.

Second, what I want to do is ask you to think about something. What would a DIVORCE look like to you? Helo and you could have a 50/50 shared custody arrangement. Maybe it would be one week with you and one week with him. Where would you live? Would you be able to afford all of the bills alone? Then, on your 50% of the time, you would be 100% responsible for your children. When one of your children is sick, in the middle of the night, and you have run out of medicine, you can't just go out to the store. You will need to bundle up all of the children and go to the store to get that medicine. Even the sick one. It would be unfair to Helo for you to take his children away from him for 50% of the time and then expect him to come to your "rescue." And then, while you are too busy taking care of your children, when are you going to find time to date? Oh, on those glorious days when your children are with Helo? Most likely, those days will be spent missing those children. And then, some short time later, Helo will find someone who will move in with him. And that woman will be playing games with your children. She will be reading them bedtime stories. She will be laughing with them. SHE will be there for all of those moments. Heartbreaking.
You will NOT have the "Fantasy DIVORCE" that you are looking for.

I am frankly quite angry with you right now.

You are sitting here complaining that Helo did nothing during those 2 years to save your marriage, what did YOU do(other than having a HORRIBLE AFFAIR)?

You came on here, you ended your PA(not mentally, but physically) and then you did WHAT? You haven't even taken the time to find a sitter. You've become quite good at making excuses(or actually just ignoring the questions) why you haven't been able to find time for UA. STOP IT.

Come on Athena, you know what needs to be done. JUST DO IT ALREADY.

Truth, Athena?

I think you are thinking too much about yourself, and every emotion or will that washes over you. And not thinking about anyeone else. Even your OM thoughts aren't really about him. They are about your reactions to him.

It's the Athena Show, live and broadcasting 24 hours a day on all channels.

Stop it. I know you feel you have depression, and you're on meds:

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/01/28/the-depressing-news-about-antidepressants.html

They probably aren't doing a thing for you, except to physically make you tired and give you deleterious side effect. It's another reason you aren't moving forward.

You have one ride on this Ferris Wheel. One shot. You threw your ticket to happy marriage and family in the trash, but miraculously, and even though you don't respect him for it yet, your BH fished it out of the trash and he's holding it out to you.

And you won't get out of your own way. Stop thinking about yourself. Think about him. Think about your kids. Think about flowers soon to bloom outside and the sun in the sky, and try, just for awhile, to be grateful.

I don't doubt that depression is a very real thing. I don't. But you were able to climb out of your depression and screw someone else's husband when the need arose. and it made you feel good about yourself. So imagine what it would feel like to love and be loved by someone? You have that chance in front of you. And you're squandering.

Look down. At your right foot. Stand up. And move it forward. Repeat. Start moving. Make yourself. Get going. Make your life happen.

Emphasis mine. I agree with Scotty, on all counts.

Athena, c'mon, this starts with you. You can do it.

The only way out of situational depression is to change your situation.

I have situational depression, too. Some days are harder than others, but I STILL manage to somehow pick one foot up and put it in front of the other. Because I WANT to change where I am. I don't want to wallow in self-pity. I WANT to escape the depression. That is something you must CHOOSE to do.

Don't sit around and whine "how?" and never do anything. Make a plan. If you need help making a plan, I'm sure there are several people here who are experienced and would be willing to help.

I don't buy that you can't do it. Don't use your depression as an excuse to destroy your children (which, as I said before, is exactly what you're doing).

Athena, I have no doubt that your depression is situational, but did you know that for most women the cause of depression is their relationship? If you will dedicate your energy to fixing your marriage, there is a huge chance that it will lift your depression, and make fixing the rest of your life much easier. Reboot your marriage. It's the power cell for your life.

Quit telling us the crap about how you can't wink. That's ridiculous. Just do nice stuff for your husband. You don't have to feel like doing it. Just do it anyway. This is ridiculous. Pick something besides winking if you don't like that.

Dr. Harley used to run a chain of mental health clinics and has counseled many people in depression. He often counsels people to get antidepressants prescribed by their doctors to help them keep their emotions under control while they work a logical plan to save their relationship. Once that is accomplished, they often feel good enough about the situation to stop the anti-depressants.

I really think you could benefit from getting some help from Dr. Harley, either through his radio show (free), through his online program, or from his son Steve or daughter Dr. Jennifer Chalmers at the Marriage Builders coaching center. They have counseled LOTS of people in your situation and could really help you.

Athena, nobody likes criticism. Nobody likes to be judged.

So you learn to phrase things in such a way that they don't make a statement about your husband. Best tips ever:

"I'd like it if you would ..." (For example, "I'd like it if you would have sex with me more often.")
"It bothers me when you ..."
"How would you feel about doing ... ?"

The ENQ is designed to make it possible to express your needs without criticism. Dr. Harley, who designed it, knows full well just how devastating criticism is to marriage.

Here's another thing you should tell your husband that is not a criticism of him:

"Honey, I'd like you to know that I feel like I have a high sex drive."

By the way, I'm a little confused at how some of your posts you express worry that your husband will want to have sex with you, and other posts you mention that one of your problems is your unmet sexual fulfillment need. Does that strike you as a little bit contradictory like it does me?


Athena, this is criticism of your husband! You are telling us that your husband can't handle hearing that you'd like him to look nice. What a critical thing to say about your husband.

If it makes you feel any better my FWH wasn't happy with how I looked and we weren't having sex the way he wanted. He filled out the EN questionaire and told me all of this. Yes, it hurt. BUT, I had agreed to be open=minded about the answers and I apreciated knowing the truth. I have since lost 20 lbs and we are having SF almost every day the way he likes it. We have reconnected and his fog finally disappeared.

You must do the EN questionaire and tell him how you REALLY feel. It is your only chance at happiness! Trust me, you won't regret it.

I don't think so. It's not the frequency, but the way in which the need is met. I have a high sex drive for SF in a certain way that he and I have never been good at together. Sex with him is not fulfilling. Or am I missing the point?

Sorry this is so long - I had a lot to say - hopefully it doesn't scare you away.

I�ve been doing some thinking about my situation and I believe I have some clarity. I don�t think it is a justification of my behaviour as much as it is an explanation for me about how I got here. Take it how you will.

I didn�t adjust well to becoming a mom. I had PPD and was frequently overwhelmed by guilt that I wasn�t doing my best. That guilt kept me from taking proper care of myself. Even once I returned to work after our last child, I was extremely stressed out dealing with the children � being over an hour late for work on a consistent basis because daycare dropoff would take 40 min and I�d spend another 20 crying in the car.

At the time, OM was just a close friend and I opened up to him about my problems. He was preparing to become a father for the first time and offered advice to help me work through my stress. I started to let things not get to me as much and take some time for myself. Things probably would have been fine if they would have stayed in this state, but they didn�t.

I started overcompensating and became selfish in my behaviour � with the kids, at work, at home, and in my marriage. Coming in late to work, taking a lot of time for myself, not helping with household chores, and the list goes on. As such, in that selfish state, I felt justified and entitled to have an affair. No excuses, but perhaps an explanation.

That behaviour continued unchanged throughout the A. I would follow my feelings and not my head, with occasional breakdowns due to the guilt of what I had become. I knew I was not being fair to my husband or kids, but I had developed a bad habit and didn�t know how to stop it. I was also afraid of going back to the way things were. I was scared I couldn�t achieve balance.

And that brings me to now. The A is dead, but I really haven�t changed and I still feel the guilt and accompanying depression that my behaviour has caused.

Yesterday�s 2x4s opened my eyes some more. I honestly didn�t think that my feelings could be mistrusted, but once I gave it some thought, I can�t help but see it now. You all told me to be a grownup and I didn�t get what you meant. But I am starting to get it now.

Last night after I pried myself away from the computer, I was physically and mentally exhausted. I collapsed onto the couch and bawled thinking about how I was drowning. BH sat beside me and we talked. It wasn�t easy. We talked about the history I described above and about how difficult change is for me right now. But we also realized something needs to happen.

We are starting small and committing to a regular exercise routine every morning together. My health is suffering and my self-confidence is too, so this seems like a good place to gain some footing. Plus, the time will be good UA and we�ve scheduled it at a time of day to avoid the many scheduling pressures we have introduced into our lives.

We took a little walk outside, got some sunshine and talked about some summer projects we were looking forward to. Later that night, we were doing some reorganizing with our TV and needed to test out the old VCR. I popped in our wedding video. We sat there for over an hour and watched how happy we were that day surrounded by our family and friends. It was really nice.

I seem to have binge freak outs and I am glad you were there to talk me through it. I am also glad that BH was willing to listen and help me figure a way I can work through part of my mess. Things are not perfect, but I am hopeful that some of your comments will continue to resonate with me and affect change.

What I plan to work on most is to make decisions with my head and not with my feelings. I think that one change will affect so many things � my lack of domestic support, my lack of motivation, my selfish attitude, and help me start acting like a grownup.

Thanks for this. The ENQ really put me in a darned if I do and darned if I don't position. I am hurting him if I tell him how I feel and I am hurting him by not giving him the truth.

But I see that the only way to move forward is to tell him, whether it hurts or not. Otherwise I am wasting my time.

Simply tell him how you like it (be secific) and he will do it that way going forward. Of course, if it is something slightly difficult, you may need to coach him until the task is mastered.

While completing the EN questionaire and discussing the kinds of things we like, my FWH and I both realized that we both like the same kind of ...ummm..."kinky" sex. We were married over 10 years and both liked the exact same kinky kind of sex, but we both were too afraid to tell the other person! How ridiculous is that!? Think of how much great sex we could have had if we had just been open from the beginning!

You can't expect him to know what you like if you don't tell him. If he loves you, he will do it the way you lik it, which will then make you happy. You just have to take that first leap of faith.