A little struggle here.

O&H are of high importance for both me and DH. But. For him, the openness part is not really necessary. That is - he does not lie, basically ever, but he is seldom open and even less voluntarily so.

So there is a discrepancy - when I am open and expect the same from him, he seems to view it as unnecessary and even violation of privacy. What I would like him to tell me, he does not consider that important.

He met with his former female colleague yesterday, someone who he is in good terms with and used to be one of closest colleagues of all. (I don't think there is or has been anything inappropriate going on, but again - he does not view it necessary to share when they e-mail or anything.) I found out as I needed to meet with him and he said he was not at the office but chatting with her outside.

So I was a bit, well, disturbed, because I don't know if he would have told me at all if I hadn't happened to find out that way. At night, I told him that I would be happy if he would next time tell me if he met with her.

Now, almost 20 hours later, he is still offended and resentful at me for not trusting him, for applying my history to his case, comparing him to myself... Well, in a way I am really doing the latter. I have become so, hm, touchy in the opposite sex interaction that I avoid almost all of those and in case there are, I'll tell him. (Normal EPs, right?) But somehow it seems that since he has strong boundaries and has not done anything inappropriate, there is no need for him to be subjected to such restrictions.

Don't even know why I am writing this... perhaps to get validated, perhaps to get reminded that I really shouldn't complain since I was the bad one, not him.

Does he want to recover the marriage? It seems to be that he's in the same 'float along to get along' mentality that left you vulnerable in the first place. Perhaps you would get further with him if you focused on that aspect, how alone it makes you feel, how sad you get when it seems like he feels you are intruding on him, how much you want a close intimate relationship with him.

Perhaps you should be posting in SAA.

Hmm, Dr. Harley says complaints in marriage are good. So, do you want to recover your marriage and have a good marriage? If so, I'm not sure where you got the idea that you shouldn't complain.

Sparkler, take a look at the Marriage Builders policies:

Policy of Undivided Attention
Policy of Joint Agreement
Policy of Radical Honesty

Take some time to review and go back and read the rules of those policies.

You will not find anything in them that distinguishes between the betrayed spouse and the wayward spouse. They apply equally to both.

In fact, they don't even say anything about an affair. They are the things that need to happen if a marriage is to be good, and they also happen to be so effective that a marriage can recover from an affair if these things happen afterward.

I think you and your husband deserve a good marriage. I think you should be honest in a respectful way about how his lack of openness bothers you:


That is very good wording! It sounds like you are mindful of the fact that you would like him to tell you if he is going to talk alone with a woman like this, and that is the right way to ask him.

But I would go one step further.

You really don't like him talking with this woman (or any woman) alone, right? You really don't approve, right? You aren't enthusiastic about it.

So it doesn't meet the guidelines for the policy of joint agreement.

To some extent it doesn't matter WHY you don't approve or why you don't want such conversations to take place. They should not take place if you think they are a bad idea.

So rather than just asking him to tell you when he does this thing that bothers you, I think you need to be honest and open with him and tell him that you don't like it happening at all:

"It bothers me when you have a friendly conversation alone with {that woman, any woman}."

Or even (depending on how serious you feel): "I cannot accept you having conversations alone with that woman like this."

Thank you for your answers!


I actually thought about whether to continue my own thread on SAA or start another... perhaps you're right. And this "float along.." is quite a good description. He tends not to make any requests at all (let alone demands) and I was like that as well. Now I am expressing myself and my needs&thoughts more, but it is still mostly one-sided, so regardless of my wording (I really do my best to keep them respectful) I sometimes feel that he thinks I am invading him, demanding too much. I have told him I would like to hear his requests as well, but it has not been very successful. He seems to think (at least he has told me that a couple of times) that he sees I am doing so many things (home, kids, writing my Master's thesis etc) that he doesn't want to demand even more. I have told him that I would like to know when things are not the best so I can aim my efforts more precisely, but no results yet.

Hm, probably I have to tell this more often and more vigorously.

Thanks, I'll try your suggestions!


The problem is that whatever the wording, he tends to understand such messages in a negative way - like he is not good enough so I need to educate him and he needs to improve himself.


I actually have thought about this before. Am I bothered by the fact that he is talking to her or the fact that he doesn't tell me about it? I came to the conclusion that as long as I know that he would tell me always (it doesn't even have to be beforehand, it is enough if he tells me in the evening), I am fine with them meeting in a caf� to catch up. I do trust him and his borders more than I trust myself. But being so immersed in the MB stuff, I am not sure about this any more

So, Sparkler, if I'm understanding correctly, you feel like it is okay for your husband to be friends with women, meet his female friends in a cafe to catch up, because you trust his boundaries? Is that right?

Yes and no.

Meeting in a caf� for lunch to catch up once a year - ok.

Being friends - there is a fine line. I would have said an enthusiastic yes a year ago, now, having seen what it can lead to - not so much. I prefer to be his only female friend, just as I have drastically tuned down all my (few) relationships with other men (which I had regarded as innocent up to joining the MB).

But I think (at least for the moment and taking into account his boundaries so far) that he is allowed to meet good acquaintances (male or female) for lunch, as long as he is open about it (this is the point here). I guess it goes against the MB basic principles, but I am ok with it.

Do you think I should re-evaluate my viewpoint?

I don't understand why he would catch up with someone if he's not friends with them. Maybe I just think differently. To me if I meet someone to catch up once a year, we are friends, just friends who don't see each other frequently.

My life is hectic enough that I can't imagine spending lunch with someone who isn't a friend.

The fact that he has not been open about it suggests to me that it means more to him than you think it does. It suggests to me that he feels like if he became completely open, revealing the facts of what is happening and his feelings about it, you would not be enthusiastic about it. (I would imagine, if he is a typical man, that he hasn't even thought about what his feelings about it are and may be completely unaware of them; I imagine he just senses that thinking it over and telling you about it might cause you to feel reluctant about it, so he does not tell you.)

I just had an ah-ha moment as to what really bothers me. Good that I can discuss it here and make it clearer to myself, so I have something to tell him about

Topic - taking initiative, asking me out to lunch etc... I am at my university near his workplace a couple of times a week. Basically, he never goes out for lunch (very unhealthy, I know). If I suggest we go for a lunch (rarely), he comes (not exactly reluctantly, but not enthusiastically either). The same with any other activities.

I guess I would like him to step up and take a lead regarding me, so that I'd be more special than everybody else. As it happened now, I think I interpreted the situation subconsciously as "you are not really enthusiastic going to lunch with me, but you seem to be enthusiastic going to lunch (or for a walk, whatever) with her".

So it boils down to me wanting to feel special and for him to show and actively acknowledge that I am special.

(How come the perspective suddenly changed?)

Sparkler, are you guys spending a minimum of 15 hours a week giving each other your undivided attention?

Would it be a selfish demand or a disrespectful judgment to say that I want to feel more special to him, that I want him to show that I am special - implying that the things he has done this far have not been enough (again)? He really is a total introvert by his nature... am I asking him to go against himself?

I think (on the verge of DJ-ing him right now) that that would be exactly how he would perceive it.

(perhaps this thread would really better fit on the SAA or recovery board)

I guess it is time to do those ENQ-s again.

Technically yes, in essence no and I am aware that this is at least one of the keys (if not The Key) here.

We do spend all the evenings together - the kids have one hour of computer playing time and this is our time, plus the hour or two after the kids have been put to bed (which is terribly late, esp after the time change due to daylight saving time). But it is not spent efficiently. We never watch TV, but we have again relapsed to being at our computers most of the time. Occasionally I suggest we play a board game; we talk about our day almost every day, but it is mostly on my initiative and he rather waits for this to be over (this talking doesn't make any LB$ deposits for him, at least so he basically said).

I know he needs time for himself to rewind from the day and I try to give him this, but I recognize that this has to be reduced.

Sparkler, that's how I've been interpreting this situation all along, though I didn't know whether or not it was feasible for you guys to meet at lunch.

"Take the lead" and "show me I'm special" are a little bit vague for a man and may be perceived as requiring mind-reading on his part. A better thing to focus on is are you guys getting to spend 15 hours per week giving each other your undivided attention, and the fact that lunch together is a way that you'd like to do that, and the fact that you are growing aware that you do not like him spending time at lunch with a female good acquaintance.

My wife and I were discussing this thread just now, and she made this comment: "going out to eat with a member of the opposite sex is a date" That's how I feel about it, too.

Sparkler, you guys need to rewind TOGETHER! That is the key. If your experiences together combine conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and regular sexual fulfillment, you will both perceive it as your "rewinding" time.

Prisca and I have six children. Let me tell you, we both need an escape from that every day. Dr. Harley says the key is to escape TOGETHER. Escape or rewind or whatever TOGETHER.

If what you are doing for UA time is so onerous and unenjoyable for one of you that he or she needs time to "unwind" before the "stress" of UA time, something's not right and I encourage you to make that problem foremost in your mind until it is solved.

Turn the electronic devices off for UA time.

I heard a fascinating old Marriage Builders radio broadcast earlier this week where Dr. Harley seemed to be implying that intimate conversation makes more love bank deposits for men than they tend to realize.

Lunch together is a great way to get some UA time.

Thank you, Markos and Prisca

I'll have to get my kids from the daycare now, but there definitely is much to think about and discuss with DH... I really, really want us to succeed.

I think he has to see this thread as well. (I have not yet managed to get him on board to comment I have deliberately not pushed much, tho)

Okay, let's be honest: technically you guys aren't giving each other your undivided attention, because you are dividing your attention due to the computers. If you aren't focusing exclusively on each other, then it's not undivided attention, right?

So you have the time there, but aren't using it ... in my experience this part of Marriage Builders really doesn't get followed if you don't intentionally schedule it. You have to sit down once a week and actually schedule the blocks of time and plan what you are going to do in them.

Dr. Harley's forms are really helpful, here, if you can get ahold of his workbook. There's a schedule to fill out at the beginning of the week with your plan, and space on it to fill out as the week goes showing what you actually did that day. If one of you feels like you didn't have the other's attention during that time, you show that by filling out your column on the chart. (My understanding is it's pretty common for a man to put down 3 hours were spent together while a woman puts down only 1 or none because she feels like she didn't have his attention the whole time.)


What can you do to make this more enjoyable for him? If he does not enjoy it, it will ultimately not continue to happen regularly in the long-term, and it needs to continue to happen regularly for the long-term!

He doesn't enjoy catching up on the day with you, but he does enjoy catching up on the year with good female acquaintances who are not friends?

Sparkler, is your H onboard with MB principles? Did he ever read, specifically, the PORH and agree to it? Because if he had, he should understand that you two are able to investigate every area of each other's lives regardless of who was the WS/BS...

I am concerned because your H sounds very much like the scenario that Dr Harley describes when someone is having a secret second life.


One last Q, would you consider this woman an opposite-sex friend? Because she sounds very much like one based on your description of her relationsip to your H...