And then what did she do when you reminded her?

Well, yeah! Because you asked her to! That was the plan, cemar! You were helping her to fall back in love with you by telling her what your needs are.

I will tell you why, cemar. Because your wife has lost the ability to spontaneously show this particular type of affection. Who knows why, but she did. And you're going to help her get back into that groove.

:::childhood story alert::: When I was a kid, my family did not physically show affection. I decided as a teen that, when I had a family of my own, we would show affection. And we DO. It's no accident, and it's nothing we all just 'fell into' and I'm not a overly physically affectionate person. I CHOSE to introduce affection to my family, and I DEMONSTRATED that by hugs and by saying I love you with my family. My sons, big guys that they are, think nothing of hugging me when they leave the house and telling me they love me when we hang up the phone.

I could never envision that with my birth family. WEIRD. But with MY family? Absolutely. Because we've made it a part of our lives.

It didn't just happen, cemar. I chose that and made it a part of our interaction.

And cemar? When she kisses you, expect nothing more! No OS, for crying out loud! We're just starting with the hello kiss, okay??

Remember that FEELINGS follow ACTIONS.

The more she ACTS (i.e., hugs, kisses, shows affection), soon she will begin to FEEL the way she is acting.

And actions are habits, which take time and reinforcement to create.

The cliche' is that it takes 3 weeks to create a habit, and you gave up after 2 DAYS.

You guys are amazing. It could not be clearer that cemar has given up all hope of improving his marriage. Yet you continue to offer him encouragment and good advice. I wish I could tap into that positive energy. But I am like cemar. Dead inside, but still breathing. I can understand why you find him (and me) frustrating. Difficult for the living to embrace the mindset of a zombie.

If you go back and read the posts, you'll see a lot of good advice there for a lurking new member who is willing to read and learn. I'm posting to the lurking new members.

Zombies scare me.

Thats it maritalbliss, I just can't leave any new readers thinking that marriage builders doesn't have an answer to Cemar's situation. It does, he just doesn't want to do it.

No sir, no positive words for you. Given your intelligence, positive words are going to do no more than you will them to.

Nope. Were I to meet you, sir, I would strike you in the fleshy patch in which your "little buddies" once resided.

Not out of malice, mind you. But to evoke something, anything, resembling fight out of you.

Alas, this will not happen.

Or his wife doesn't want to do it.

After all, it wasn't him that gave up on the kisses after two days, it was his wife.

So I don't understand those who were ragging on him for quitting after two days and telling him it takes three weeks for a habit to form. That doesn't really help him when his wife isn't willing.

Now I tend to agree that he's not helping his cause. But as I've been told elsewhere, it takes BOTH being on-board, not just him. If he sees little evidence that she's willing to get on board and stay on board, he probably doesn't see the benefit of him being on-board alone.

I still say he needs to get on-board and stay on board consistently for 6 months and THEN decide.

FWIW

Correction, his wife gave up after two days. There is enough about which we can complain about regarding his behavior. However, I don't think it's fair to say he gave up when it was her that stopped kissing him after two days.

That's good to hear, that you feel this way.

Of course, his wife isn't cheating on him as far as I can tell

But on the third day, what did he do?

Did he go to her nicely and remind her he would love a hello kiss or did he just go away and sulk because she forgot?

While I agree he should gently remind her, she shouldn't give up after two days either.

My point is while there is plenty to beat him up about, don't put her failures in his lap.

It sends a pretty clear message that if she's unwilling to continue after two days, that he's not very important to her. If I promise to do something for my wife, I better darn well do it, or I send the message that my word is no good an I don't value her enough to keep my word.

It doesn't matter if he reminds her or not, the damage is already done when she fails to do what he says he values.

Just at it does when any emotional need goes unmet. It tells the spouse we don't care about them enough to meet their needs.

Reminding her doesn't change the fact that she's sent him that message with her inability to create behaviors that signal she cares enough to meet his clearly stated needs.

Except Cemar's wife knows nothing about the EN's, or any other MB concepts for that matter, since he refuses to tell her about this site or share any of Dr. Harley's concepts with her.

It's kind of hard to fault her for not following a plan she isn't even aware exists.

I get the feeling that she only quit because she can't do it right. Doing it isn't enough for cemar. She has to want to do it with great boatloads of passion or it's useless to even try.

I can just hear it now:

She: "Hi cemar, I'm home! *smooch*"

He: "What was that? That was like kissing my brother, or the parish priest. Where's your fire, woman? I've given more passionate kisses to the back of my hand!"

She: *sigh* "Please be patient with me, cemar. I'm trying."

NEXT DAY:

She: "Hi cemar, I'm home! *smooch*"

He: "What the??? Another lousy wet-noodle kiss? It's like kissing my grandmother, or the dog. In fact, I've gotten more passionate kisses FROM the dog. What is wrong with you woman?"

She: *sigh* "I give up, cemar. Go kiss the dog, your hand, your grandma, just leave me the heck alone."

lol. Am I very far off, cemar? Are you incredibly unappreciative of her efforts, so she quits?

She understood enough to do as he suggested for two days. So we can't argue ignorance on her part. It's not like he said stop giving me a kiss when I get home.

Since she apparently understood enough to do it for the first two days, and it's pretty clear that he wanted it to continue, I think we can safely believe that he didn't tell her to stop.

Right?

That's possible.

It's pretty clear that he doesn't feel appreciated from his words, so if what you suggest is true, it's probably a stalemate.

Neither wants to meet the others needs, both feel unloved and unappreciated.

Sure we can. Yes, she knew he wanted her to kiss him. But she isn't aware of any of the concepts behind why this is important to him. She doesn't know anything about the top 10 EN's, or what Cemar's top 5 EN's are, or why it is so important for her to meet them (and for him to meet hers).

And while CWMI's example may be a bit extreme, I strongly suspect something similar to that happened. Maybe Cemar didn't come right out and tell her she was kissing him wrong, but I bet he definitely gave the impression that her efforts weren't nearly enough. He comes here all the time and makes it very clear to us that he doesn't think his wife is capable of meeting his needs, so I'm sure his attitude about her is even more clear to the woman who has to live with him everyday.

Sure. Why not. I don't think we need to argue motives for what is or isn't happening. What we're trying to do here is help cemar teach his wife to kiss him hello.

So, anyway, cemar. I'll be more to the point: did you remind her to kiss you?