I've been reading a lot of posts lately speaking of "seeing the OW/OM in hell," or of God punishing them, etc. For those of you who believe this way, I have a couple of questions. <P> If you are so sure that the OW/OM will be punished by God and sent to hell, do you also feel your spouse will? If not, why do you feel your spouse will be spared this fate?<P>For those of you who know for a fact that the OW/OM has moved on from your spouse to cheat again (like Liz's situation), then I can understand this thinking. But for those of you who do not have these facts, how can you be so sure about the OW/OM's salvation. Isn't their salvation completely out of your hands? And whether they slept with your spouse or a hundred others, their salvation rests on whether they repent and ask forgiveness. Even if they wait until the 11th hour to do so, they'd still be forgiven. <P>We are all sinners. Maybe we've chosen different sins, but I know none of us on this forum is perfect. And according to the bible I've read, one sin is no better or worse than any other. That means if we are fortunate enough to get through the pearly gates, there could be repentent murderers, thieves, child molesters, wife beaters, and yes, even adulterers there too.<P>Would it make you feel better or worse to know that the OW/OM in your situation has repented and has been forgiven and is loved by God just as much as you are?

Excellent, PodPerson, and those posts make me cringe. I understand the pain (like I still think going a few rounds with her would have been "cleansing"), but I can not understand cold blooded hate.<P>Even unrepentent people are loved and valued by God every bit as much as those on the "right" road. Yes, we are all sinners.<P>I pray for OW, and although I'm not accountable for H's actions, it grieves me that any action he took may have caused her to stumble further down the wrong path, so I pray that someone intervenes in her life to lead her back.<P>Thank you for posting this.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I've spent the morning thinking about the situation with OW and her current affair. <P>I know the other spouses (hers and bosses) and just don't feel that they should be in that awful limbo of knowing that your marriage isn't healthy, but not knowing why. Both of the other spouses are kind, sweet, honest, hardworking people. There are several children involved. <P>What if 'exposure' is what these two need to shake them out of their fantasies and make them realize the preciousness of their marriages?<P>I'm praying, searching my heart and truly don't want to take God's matters into my hands. But what if I'm supposed to be the one to get this thing in the open? Don't I owe it to the other two spouses to at least give them the options I was given when my h. came clean? <P>I would have kissed the feet of anyone who had clued me in before my h and she became so enmeshed. I wonder if the other spouses are going through that same "what is wrong with me?" hell.<P>I also think that she has probably done this more than these two times, since she admitted to having 'a problem in my relationships with men'. So if her h. doesn't know, do we sit back and let her keep messing with other peoples husbands? <P>Many guys are strong, but still would find it very difficult to pass up the blow jobs and lunchtime quickies with no commitment that she offers. She started up with my h. by pressing up against him in the office and feeling him up and later giving him a 'crotch rub' with her toes behind a desk. Needless to say, he was flattered.<P>I don't see myself as some avenging angel or anything, in fact, I'd rather just close my eyes to it all. But shouldn't someone stop it?<P>I don't know what is right to do, and won't do anything till I clearly believe it is for the best of the others.<P>We are moving on, and getting counseling. He wrote me a beautiful letter expressing his love and acknowledging his selfishness. The other marriages don't have this chance unless the truth is known.<P>Praying and listening, Lizzie<P>p.s. to Pod I don't really hate her and if she and I are both in heaven someday, I'm sure we won't remember any of this crap. We may even be friends. But I do believe that she'll need to see the error of her ways to end up there. <P>I spend my time confessing my evil thoughts and praying for a pure, gentle and forgiving spirit. Otherwise, my h. would be living in a dumpy apartment and visiting the kids once a week, and I would have sent the packet of emails months ago..<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Liz Smith (edited October 28, 1999).]

Pod: No, I don't look like Dana Carvey, the ex-OW looks like Dana Carvey when he's having a bad day. I have been told I look like Linda Carter (Wonder Woman) or Kate Mulgrew (Star Trek Voyager). GO FIGURE! <P>See, it isn't about looks, folks--trust me, it's about meeting needs. I have modeled, and could be making money at it now. It has nothing to do with how we look, it's how we love them and meet their needs. I wish looking good was all it took, that would just require a good nights sleep and a good hair stylist!<P>LIZZIE<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR>

POD:<BR>In the past month that I have been reading these posts, my eyes have certainly been opened. Your post is interesting and well put.<P>It seems like the betrayed have so much anger and rage (and justifiably so) toward the OP that they feel obliged (or maybe obsessed) to react or take revenge in some way. But it took TWO to make the affair happen. Nobody put a gun to their spouse's head and said, "Have an affair with me or else!" <P>I was emotionally involved with somebody else, and believe me, I knew that what I was doing was wrong. I simply chose to turn away from everything that was good in my life, everything that I believed in and stood for. I turned away from God too. But nobody forced me to do it. <P>If my H was a vengeful person (he isn't PTL!), shouldn't he be taking it out on ME and not the OM? And let the OM's wife take all her anger out on her husband, not ME!!<P>Liz:<BR>Live it alone. It is none of your business. This little one will get found out soon enough. If she is the type that you say she is, she will be exposed. Look deep down inside of yourself and check to see what is really motivating you to want to expose her. Is it really to help somebody else or is it that you still feel a good deal of anger toward her? Do you want to see her hurt and suffer because she did that you?

It is really tough to not have horrid feelings for anyone who would try and destroy your life intentionally or otherwise. God says vengence is mine. <BR>The minute we try and take that vengence into our own hands by even thinking about it we are on shakey ground. Forgiveness has got to include the OW/OM or else hatred and bitterness will eat us alive. Anyone who doesn't think the OW/OM is a victim as well needs to take a second look. We are all capable of doing some horrible things and I say, there but by the grace of God go I. I hate the sin but God expects me to love the sinner. Huge task and one that I need to do one day at a time just like forgiving my H. For those that can't fathom forgiving the OP just give it some time, until then just be willing to have your heart changed by God's power. God says anyone without sin cast the first stone........<P>------------------<BR>eyes wide open<BR>

FHL,<P>Your welcome. I thought it needed to be said.<P>Liz,<P>That Dana Carvey thing was a joke ..... ya know, the "church lady" character he used to do on SNL???? I hope you didn't take it seriously!!

Pod, I got the joke, sorry if I sounded humorless. All this deep reflection is stealing my joy--and that's dumb.<P>I must admit, though, being usurped by an unattractive person is harder to take---<P>To the rest of you, thanks for speaking up. Something that I struggle with most is the ugly way I want to respond, since I have always been known for spiritual maturity, even as a little girl. I never fought back, never caused trouble, you get the picture. Now I just want to be sure that I'm not supposed to intervene and help her husband-<P>-Obviously I struggle with wanting to hurt her, she is really slutty...but that isn't the whole picture. I would hope that she is discovered some other way, but I'm not convinced yet that I shouldn't at least send her h. an anonymous note...I won't do anything hasty or LB. I already know that my h. had been hoping I'd expose her, but he admits to having very nasty motives because she cheated on him. <P>I'd really prefer to wake up tomorrow and discover this has been a really long nightmare, but that won't happen, huh?<P>Things are so good with my h., the love letter showed me that he does know what he's done and he is planning to spend his life loving me...In light of the other posts and so many who aren't yet in a place of recovery, I know I should be thankful and trust God. <P>In fact, I do trust God, but that doesn't always keep the crud from hitting the fan of your life, does it? Other people can choose to do wrong and we get the fallout.<P>By the way, my h. is in his first week of a new job and loves it.<P>LIZ<P>------------------<BR>When you go through deep waters and great trouble, I will be with you. Isaiah 43:2<P><BR>

Pod,<BR>You are right, there is no sin worse than the other. It's a lot of hurt, anger, rejection and all the other stuff rolled in this.

Pod - you're right. In fact, every day, when I pray for myself, my daughter and my husband, I also pray for Sweetie, that God will enter her heart and show her how he would like her to live her life. She's so very young to begin this way.<P>This is NOT to say I haven't thought about a big ol wart on her face or an extra 100# or so (hey, maybe that's where the 25# is coming from! LOL), but I wish her no real harm. <P>Lori

For awhile I really thought there was something wrong with me because I didn't have a seething hatred for OW or my H. I actually felt a bit sorry for OW when I first discovered them together as she looked absolutely pathetic.<P>I began feeling this way when H's therapist told him that the situation would be a lot better for me if I developed hatred for him.<P>This comment made me mad. How dare she tell me how to feel when she hadn't even met me!! I just thought this was so wrong. I don't want to turn into a bitter person.<P>This is not to say that I don't occassionally have revengeful thoughts towards OW for turning my life upside down. But, I can honestly say I don't hate her.<P>I was glad to read several of the posts as they make me feel like I am okay.

Whether a person goes to heaven or hell is left up to each individual. The person chooses to go to heaven by asking Jesus to come into their life and forgive them of their sins after understanding that Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sin.<P>WE ALL HAVE UNTIL THE MOMENT WE DIE TO MAKE THAT CHOICE. But if you die before you make that choice then it is to late.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

I think how one feels about the entire situation depends entirely upon the situation. I have "seethed with hatred" for the slug partly because my introduction to her affair with my husband was an attempt by her to do me physical harm. And then, by her telephoning my house at 3 am about 30 times until I finally took my phone off the hook.<P>I know I am not perfect. I know I'm not even all that "good" in the "true Christian" sense of the word. But I also know that she did this to another marriage not long before she began doing it to mine, and that she has not one ounce of remorse for having been party to destroying my life - even going so far as to tell me to get out of HIS life (see, my threads about the emails she has sent me in response to messages I've sent to HIM. I did not marry the slug "in sickness and health, in good times and bad, for better or worse, until death us do part." I DID marry my husband and said those words. Nor did I promise to love and cherish <B>her</B> all the days of my life, as I did him. And before anyone decides they need to point out that H didn't honor HIS promises - that is not a good reason for me not to honor mine. Remember that the New Testament says only that adultery is the only legitimate <I>reason</I> for divorce in God's eyes, NOT that it is REQUIRED to divorce an adulterer.<P>I love the man my husband was, and the man that I know he still is, inside. As I've pointed out before, I've seen that man surface occasionally during this past year, so I know he's still in there.<P>Sorry to get on the soap box, but we all need to remember that everyone's situation is unique and we all have different ways of coping.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>No, I'm not a Marriage Counselor,<BR>But I did sleep at a <BR>Holiday Inn Express last night...<BR>

Isn't it easier to take it out on someone you have no ties with than the one you do and want to spend the rest of your life with? <P>I guess it boils down to that. Perhaps shifting the blame to the one you didn't have vows taken with and the one you don't love. Although in some cases, such as OW and wife knowing one another, this could be completely justifiable in some major vengeance thoughts. <p>[This message has been edited by Connor (edited October 28, 1999).]

Well, I went through a few weeks of really feeling such hate for the STD Tramp. I guess I really shouldn't call her that, but I figure it's an improvement over calling her the Slut-from-and-in-Hell. I even wrote an "ode" to her in which I express the hope that she died from clawing herself to death (from the trich) for 5 years.<P>Actually, I think she died of cancer. It seems to run in her family. Her younger brother died of cancer a couple of years ago.<P>I never knew her, so I have no idea whether she ever changed her lifestyle or not, or whether she became a Christian or not. The only thing I know about her is what she looked like in her high-school yearbook picture, and what a former friend had to say about her. The former friend said that they didn't have any falling out or anything, but shortly after they became friends, she realized that this woman's lifestyle was not anything with which she wanted to be associated, so she ended the friendship. Her life was apparently a series of one-night stands. Sad.

Watched "Primary Colors" tonight and someone said something like it's not the cheater but the cheated that goes to hell. I think we all get a little piece of hell when we are thrust onto this journey...all of us...<P>------------------<BR>Joan <P>"Turn your wounds into wisdom..." That really cool black gal who was on Oprah all summer.<BR>

I guess it all boils down to all of us have a need for God and all of us do things that we shouldn't. I agree with the phrase-"Sin is Sin".<BR>I struggle with the fact that in my situation the OW has decided since all of this came out that she would like to attend our church. She has said she was a total victim of depression so my H took advantage of her. (Did I mention she was my best friend? and we were together as families about 3-4 times a week and the EA went on for about 2 yrs?)She doesn't seem to have any regard for my feelings and her husband knew of some of the stuff about 1 yr ago and he didn't bother to tell me and they all just agreed it would be over then.Yeah, right, it just goes away.<P> If I am to abide by the advice of "total separation" I have to consider maybe being there is the only time she will have an opportunity to get things right with God. So as painful as it might be we will probably have to leave. I know we can go elsewhere and be ok but I can't say what she and her H will do. There are kids with an unknown spiritual condition to consider also.<P>If I am true to my convictions I have to put that in front of how I would like to feel and believe me there are days when I would like to kick box her behind around the block.<BR>Thanks for making us all take a good look inside.

I didn't mean this post to say that everyone should want to be friends with the OW/OM, so I hope it didn't sound that way. I also wasn't really speaking about "forgiving" the OW/OM. I think that may or may not cone with time and you're right, Terri, everyone's situation is different. What I was speaking about is how some think they can judge or determine the OW/OM's salvation based on the fact that the OW/OM "sinned." And? Who hasn't? If everyone who has sinned is doomed to hell, then there will be no one in heaven.<P>I think it's normal to wish bad things on people who've done bad things to us. But when all is said and done, their fate is not a done deal. I was an OW, and I believe I have as much of a chance at heaven as anyone else here. Like it or not, we are all on an equal playing field.

Podperson,<BR>EVERYONE does have an equal chance to go to heaven. It is left to the person whether they go by the hoice they make to His offer for salvation. It has always been that way. However, He says that He is coming back like a thief in the night. So it is best to take Him up on His offer and live every day as though it were your last (meant in the positive meaning not doing everything under the sun if you know what I mean.)<P>That is why I still love my W in spite of the great deal of pain that is caused by her past and current actions. She still is and always will be His gift to me though she is duped by Satan and doesn't realize that he is duping her.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Actually, I really never wished horrible things on my H's ow. Yes, I was angry, but to my surprise, my anger was primarily directed at my H. It was, after all, he and he alone who made all of the decisions that ultimately led up to this cesspool. <BR>I was always raised that everything you do brings repercussions, both good and bad, where my H was raised with the idea that everything bad he did was always someone else's fault, and that he could bulldoze his way through life and no one would ever say anything about any of his actions.<BR>The OW here was just as much a victim as I was. Hopefully this experience will make her a little more savvy in the relationships she starts up from now on, that she won't be blindly trusting all the time.<BR>As bad as this sounds, what I wish had happened was that someone would have beat the snot out of my H for playing around with people's lives like he did. He told me her father was dead, but she did have a brother, and for awhile I kind of hoped that one day he'd show up at H's work and just have at him. I think that's the only way my H would have learned about repercussions.<P>Oh, and Liz, here's another suggestion. You could send that anon letter, but instead of to her husband or the boss's wife, send it to the people that are above that boss. I would word it to say something to the effect that you don't know how anything is getting done with all this hanky panky going on. Maybe that would trigger an in-office "investigation/audit" sort of thing. Another possibility is that the higher ups already have installed a PI in the workplace and are just getting evidence while they wait for that boss to "hang" himself.<BR>Just what kind of business is this????? With all that boinking and playing footsie going on, when do they get any work done???<P>So, to reiterate, while I was somewhat angry with the OW, I was more angry at my H, and if there were any repercussions to be suffered, I wanted them to be aimed at my H.<P>Also, the Bible says that we are not like God. We are human, and as such, we all are imperfect, and our emotions are part of that. We all fall short, but God knows that and forgives us anyway. HE already knows that we were going to feel that way. Vengeance is God's, but no one should just sit by when someone hurts them and not respond is some way. <BR>There are ways to get your message across to people without being malicious about it, and still get your point across.