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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
That question can be asked in the reverse, though. Who would pretend to be heterosexual and engage in sexual relations that repulse them? It doesn't make any sense to say that only a homosexual cannot change his orientation and not the reverse.

Oh I agree with you completely on this point. I do think though that men are more inclined to persue a straight relationship/marriage because it is expected they will do this (wife/children). Typically you hear the man say he was ashamed and thought it was a phase/didn't want anyone to know/etc.

I know that (well I think) my dad wouldn't be ashamed if I was gay. But he would be disapointed. Now my grandfather and grandmother on teh other hand would be ashamed and disown me if I were gay.


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Well, I'm a heterosexual male, so I do think that male gay sex is gross. I have some gay friends that gross out when it comes to man/woman sex.

Strangely enough, at my wifes place of employment there have been 3 husbands that once the kids were out of the house announced that they have been closet gay and could not maintain the straight lifestyle any longer because they have been miserable and faking it. And since the kids were out they felt they were now free to go and live the lifestyle they really want.

Strange world sometimes. I don't understand faking your sexual orientation.

Ditto!

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Originally Posted by Aradia
He's also pushing the 'thinking themselves gay' myth, if someone straight has one gay experience born out of childhood curiosity they will suddenly be changing their own brains to believe that gay is the way to be. LOL!! Yeah right! Do you think gay children who have a sexual experience with a member of the opposite sex think themselves into being straight? There's absolutely no science whatsoever to support that.

You are exaggerating his statement and can't back up your own comments with "science." He did not say that at all. He stated that he had clients who believed they might be homosexual because they had had a pleasurable homosexual experience in childhood. But thats ok if you don't agree with him. What matters is that Dr Harley is able to save marriages and change sexual orientiations.

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And believe it or not, there IS a gene, and they are closer to discovering it every day (yes people really ARE born gay). www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/07/15/have-scientists-found-gay-gene

Actually that has never been proven and even in the article you posted it said: "Park said he now wants to research whether this finding has any relevance for humans." The homosexual community has made this claim for the last 25 years, in my awareness, and have yet to "prove it." You say that there is such a gene, and then state that it has not been discovered.... hmmmmmmm How do you know this if it has not been discovered? Isn't that wishful thinking rather than "science?"


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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
[
Oh I agree with you completely on this point. I do think though that men are more inclined to persue a straight relationship/marriage because it is expected they will do this (wife/children). Typically you hear the man say he was ashamed and thought it was a phase/didn't want anyone to know/etc.

I agree. But we also have communities, and I have lived in them, where homosexuality is celebrated and encouraged. They are treated like special citizens. What is it they say, "be loud and proud!!" And they are. So there would great incentive to swing to the other side. My point is that it is not rational to say that if you swing on the homo side you are a homosexual and can't change, but the reverse is somehow not true.


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
I agree. But we also have communities, and I have lived in them, where homosexuality is celebrated and encouraged. They are treated like special citizens. What is it they say, "be loud and proud!!" And they are. So there would great incentive to swing to the other side. My point is that it is not rational to say that if you swing on the homo side you are a homosexual and can't change, but the reverse is somehow not true.

Yeah but you also lived through a time when they thought it was for some reason okay to let women vote, start wearing shoes, and leave the kitchen!

bwahahahahah


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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
Yeah but you also lived through a time when they thought it was for some reason okay to let women vote, start wearing shoes, and leave the kitchen!

bwahahahahah

shaddup!! [Linked Image from i39.photobucket.com]


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Originally Posted by Aradia
(I'm a long time open bisexual in a straight monogamous marriage- but I would never claim to or seek to erase any physical desires for women just because I married a man and have vowed to only have sex with him).

That's an interesting perspective ... to me, I would seek to erase any physical desires for anyone (man, woman, child, muppet, whatever) else other than my spouse. I would seek to reinforce desires for my wife and diminish any other competing desires. That's part of my agreement to forsake all others.


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Originally Posted by Aradia
And believe it or not, there IS a gene, and they are closer to discovering it every day (yes people really ARE born gay).

Which is it? If they are closer to discovering it every day, then they have not discovered it.


How about a reference to a published study in a journal rather than Fox news? Not to offend anyone, but I'm not personally comfortable with accepting Fox news as a scientific source.


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Originally Posted by Aradia
Do you think gay children who have a sexual experience with a member of the opposite sex think themselves into being straight? There's absolutely no science whatsoever to support that.

Has anyone actually published a study on that question? If no studies have been published, then there certainly wouldn't be any evidence one way or the other.

Have you reviewed the scientific literature on the subject?


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Originally Posted by kilted_thrower
I am curious now as to how many men that Dr. Harley has dealt with has had an affair with another man.

I'm with you, kilted; I'd be real interested in seeing Dr. Harley's data on this. There are claims, but to my knowledge none of what he's got on this has been published as a study in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, or even self-published. I doubt that would ever happen because I assume the data is highly confidential.

Anyway, I would say that for someone who is interested in learning to suppress a same-sex attraction, it seems like giving Dr. Harley's approach might well be worth it. If it doesn't really work, then it doesn't really work, but what would they have to lose?


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Originally Posted by markos
How about a reference to a published study in a journal rather than Fox news? Not to offend anyone, but I'm not personally comfortable with accepting Fox news as a scientific source.

Pool, R. (1993). Evidence for homosexuality gene. Science (New York, N.Y.), 261(5119), 291-292.

From the Fox News article, link provided;

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/11/62

Another article;

Quote
ABSTRACT
Presents a thesis that a major type of Kinsey grades 5 and 6 male homosexuality is determined by a gene in the Xq28 region. Unbalanced secondary sex ratio in the maternal generation of male homosexuals; Instances of homosexual parent-to-homosexual child transmission; Instances of presumptive transmissions from heterosexual father-to-homosexual son.

Turner, W. J. (1995). Homosexuality, type 1: An Xq28 phenomenon. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 24(2), 109.

HOWEVER, the process which the "homosexuality gene" was hypothesized have been under scrutiny for candidate selection and possible outside influence.


That's what I found in 5 minutes of using an academic database search.

As a funny side note, the gene "identified" is referred to as the FucM gene.

rotflmao


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Thanks, Hold, for taking it up a notch to science. That provides us a real basis for evaluating the claim.


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Leaving out the moral questions, my simplistic engineer mind sees sexual orientation no different than being attracted to other physical attributes. I am attracted to women with red hair.

But I don't act on every attraction. My wife would have a fit. So I can control my behavior and not act on every visually appealing woman.

I might find someone with jet black hair attractive as well. Again, since I love my wife, I don't act on that.

I don't see homosexuality as anymore than being attracted to certain physical or even personality traits. Some choose to act on their attractions.

If I were in "the market" I think I could find a blonde attractive, so I don't think I'm "hard wired" to like red or black hair. I've simply chosen or allowed myself to find such women physically attractive.

I suspect that those who find the same sex attractive have a lot of that same thing going on. It's my belief that it's more nurture than nature that drives same sex attractions. Which means, if someone wants to, they can change their thinking to find others attractive.

It's a behavior. Just as Dr Harley teaches behaviors to help folks have a better marriage, folks can learn behaviors to find same-sex or opposite-sex individuals attractive.

I'm not saying it's easy. But I really don't buy that it's a genetic based forgone conclusion. Just as I don't think my finding redheads attractive is a result of my genetics.

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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by Aradia
He's also pushing the 'thinking themselves gay' myth, if someone straight has one gay experience born out of childhood curiosity they will suddenly be changing their own brains to believe that gay is the way to be. LOL!! Yeah right! Do you think gay children who have a sexual experience with a member of the opposite sex think themselves into being straight? There's absolutely no science whatsoever to support that.

You are exaggerating his statement and can't back up your own comments with "science." He did not say that at all. He stated that he had clients who believed they might be homosexual because they had had a pleasurable homosexual experience in childhood. But thats ok if you don't agree with him. What matters is that Dr Harley is able to save marriages and change sexual orientiations.

Quote
And believe it or not, there IS a gene, and they are closer to discovering it every day (yes people really ARE born gay). www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/07/15/have-scientists-found-gay-gene

Actually that has never been proven and even in the article you posted it said: "Park said he now wants to research whether this finding has any relevance for humans." The homosexual community has made this claim for the last 25 years, in my awareness, and have yet to "prove it." You say that there is such a gene, and then state that it has not been discovered.... hmmmmmmm How do you know this if it has not been discovered? Isn't that wishful thinking rather than "science?"

Actually the homosexual community does not want the gene to be discovered because if it is then there can be a screening for it and Christians can and many will abort the gay fetuses. And did you know that almost all pharmaceutical drugs and modern medical inventions are based on discoveries in vivisection? Many times human models are NEVER used to assess the validity of these discoveries. Now I might agree with you that your ideal of what the "science" is (human trials) is better, but it's not the way modern medicine works.

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The other point, which has already been raised is that heterosexuals choose to act or not act on their desires. Getting married doesn't do something magical that negates that I find certain physical and personality traits attractive.

What changes is MY thinking. I'm married, I made a promise, a vow to my wife. I have a family. No matter how many hot redheads throw themselves at me, seeking the famous family baked beans recipe, I will not act on those advances and betray my wife and family.

It takes more than just thinking that thought. One has to guard their marriage. But if it can be done successfully by heterosexuals, then why would we doubt that someone who finds someone of the same sex attractive can do the same and not act on those attractions?

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Aradia
(I'm a long time open bisexual in a straight monogamous marriage- but I would never claim to or seek to erase any physical desires for women just because I married a man and have vowed to only have sex with him).

That's an interesting perspective ... to me, I would seek to erase any physical desires for anyone (man, woman, child, muppet, whatever) else other than my spouse. I would seek to reinforce desires for my wife and diminish any other competing desires. That's part of my agreement to forsake all others.

Oh good God NO! Sexuality makes us HUMAN, it's a perfectly natural thing! It's part of who I *am* which is what he signed up for. How I choose to act on that is one thing, as I have chosen to be monogamous, but the entire concept of eradicating a certain sexuality is just total nonsense, you cannot change someone's sexual orientation! No sooner could I stop being bisexual because I married a man and vowed to be monogamous, then I could stop knowing how to ride a bicycle or pour a glass because he'd rather I didn't do that either :p I can promise not to do any of those things if he doesn't want me to, but it doesn't change the programming. Sexuality even moreso. You just flat out cannot change it. You can hide it, camoflauge it, fake it- but your sexuality does NOT just "change". It's impossible.

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Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Aradia
Do you think gay children who have a sexual experience with a member of the opposite sex think themselves into being straight? There's absolutely no science whatsoever to support that.

Has anyone actually published a study on that question? If no studies have been published, then there certainly wouldn't be any evidence one way or the other.

Have you reviewed the scientific literature on the subject?

Nobody would demand one because there is no debate that being straight is natural to the straight community, and gay people don't make the ridiculous assumption that there is something 'wrong' with straight people (the way heterosexuals think of homosexuals). I'm telling you, decades from now, the sooner the better, people who think of homosexuals as deviants are going to be considered just as bad as racist bigots. More and more people in the United States are waking up to the fact that homosexuality has been around for eons, is never going away, and is for whatever reason, very much natural and part of who someone is from birth, and they're accepting it. Amen for that!

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The question many are asking here is why do folks consider attraction to a particular gender immutable, while most would agree we can change what physical or personality traits we find attractive?

It's not consistent. If what I found attractive when I was a teen is not the same as what I find attractive approaching 50, then why wouldn't that apply to what gender I find attractive?

I tend to believe it's a behavior, not a foregone conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Aradia
Originally Posted by markos
Originally Posted by Aradia
Do you think gay children who have a sexual experience with a member of the opposite sex think themselves into being straight? There's absolutely no science whatsoever to support that.

Has anyone actually published a study on that question? If no studies have been published, then there certainly wouldn't be any evidence one way or the other.

Have you reviewed the scientific literature on the subject?

Nobody would demand one because there is no debate that being straight is natural to the straight community, and gay people don't make the ridiculous assumption that there is something 'wrong' with straight people (the way heterosexuals think of homosexuals). I'm telling you, decades from now, the sooner the better, people who think of homosexuals as deviants are going to be considered just as bad as racist bigots. More and more people in the United States are waking up to the fact that homosexuality has been around for eons, is never going away, and is for whatever reason, very much natural and part of who someone is from birth, and they're accepting it. Amen for that!

There are many things that have been around for eons. Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't make it good or acceptable.

As one who has faith, I tend to believe what the scriptures say. However, I don't think that those who practice homosexuality are any more of a sinner than anyone else.

So I can believe something is wrong, that something is not-normal (is that any less offensive than deviant?) and still NOT be bigoted because I know that we are ALL sinners. Heterosexuals and homosexuals alike are sinners. So I'm neither better nor worse when it comes to any alleged moral high ground.

So don't be tempted to use faulty logic and assume that those who believe in engaging in homosexual acts is sinful are saying they don't sin.

Most I know who hold this belief are fully aware that they too are sinners, and not morally superior.

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There are many things that have been around for eons. Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't make it good or acceptable.

As one who has faith, I tend to believe what the scriptures say. However, I don't think that those who practice homosexuality are any more of a sinner than anyone else.

So I can believe something is wrong, that something is not-normal (is that any less offensive than deviant?) and still NOT be bigoted because I know that we are ALL sinners. Heterosexuals and homosexuals alike are sinners. So I'm neither better nor worse when it comes to any alleged moral high ground.

So don't be tempted to use faulty logic and assume that those who believe in engaging in homosexual acts is sinful are saying they don't sin.

Most I know who hold this belief are fully aware that they too are sinners, and not morally superior.

"Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't make it good or acceptable"- no matter what you wrote after this, that line proves your discrimination. There are a lot of things in the Bible that we know now are wrong- it condones beating and stoning women, slavery, all kinds of horrible acts. Most sensible modern day christians remove the hatred and violence promoted in the Bible and follow the positive affirmations instead. I would urge you to do the same.

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