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Leaving out the moral questions, my simplistic engineer mind sees sexual orientation no different than being attracted to other physical attributes. I am attracted to women with red hair.
But I don't act on every attraction. My wife would have a fit. So I can control my behavior and not act on every visually appealing woman. This is a superb post, EE. It is the best explanation of what married people must do about our attractions that I have seen anywhere. We are all attracted to other people even after marriage, except in rare cases where some biological event has killed our sex drive. In order to protect our marriages or to recover from affairs, we need to shore up our boundaries against indulging in those attractions, in our minds or outwardly in our behaviour. We have to take the focus off the other person(s) and refocus on our spouse. We would never say that the man who finds himself drawn to other women (surely most married men) should "be honest with himself" or "not deny his instincts" and have sex with other women. We would urge him to work on the marriage, because there are children to whom he has responsibilities, and because the life-long rewards of the happy marriage are worth the work. We (on Marriage Builders, anyway) wouldn't immediately say that he should divorce and do what he wants - not when there are vows, and a wife and family to consider.
BW
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The question many are asking here is why do folks consider attraction to a particular gender immutable, while most would agree we can change what physical or personality traits we find attractive?
It's not consistent. If what I found attractive when I was a teen is not the same as what I find attractive approaching 50, then why wouldn't that apply to what gender I find attractive?
I tend to believe it's a behavior, not a foregone conclusion. That's a really easy assumption for a straight person to make, that it's just a 'behavior'. Because it's automatically acceptable to be straight (think how you would feel if someone was calling your sexual attraction to women in general just a behavior that you could totally change and start having sex with men instead, no big deal). When I was a teenager and came out as bisexual my brother said "you're not bisexual, how do you even KNOW? It's just something you're doing not what you are, what you are is straight, you're born that way." and I said to him "how do you know you're straight and not gay? If you had a gay experience wouldn't you still be straight?" he said he "just knows" but it's "not the same thing" for homosexuals. He has a different opinion now that he's grown and has had more homosexual acquaintences and learned more about gender and sexuality as a topic. I'm kind of leaning on, a lot of people in these boards are church goers. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know any people in my personal life who are not religious who actually believe there is something abnormal or wrong or changeable about homosexuality.
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Oh good God NO! Sexuality makes us HUMAN, it's a perfectly natural thing! It's part of who I *am* which is what he signed up for. How I choose to act on that is one thing, as I have chosen to be monogamous, but the entire concept of eradicating a certain sexuality is just total nonsense, you cannot change someone's sexual orientation! No sooner could I stop being bisexual because I married a man and vowed to be monogamous, then I could stop knowing how to ride a bicycle or pour a glass because he'd rather I didn't do that either :p I can promise not to do any of those things if he doesn't want me to, but it doesn't change the programming. Sexuality even moreso. You just flat out cannot change it. You can hide it, camoflauge it, fake it- but your sexuality does NOT just "change". It's impossible. Aradia, you are arguing against something that is not being argued here. We are arguing that the concept of a fixed "sexuality" is irrelevant when it comes to encouraging couples to fulfil each other's emotional needs as they must have done at some point if they were happy enough to marry. If they met each other's needs to the point that they once were in love enough to marry, then they can learn to meet them again and restore their marriage. All married people should guard themselves against the intimacy and flirting that leads to an affair. We ALL find other people attractive and can choose to focus on those attractions, or we can stay well away from the danger zone of other people and focus on our spouse. This is about behaviour, not sexuality. You have chosen to focus on your opposite-sex spouse and stay faithful to him. That is a CHOICE. Whether or not you have changed your sexuality from bi-sexual to heterosexual is irrelevant. You wil have to stay away from intimacy (including intimate conversation) with other people and focus your attention on your spouse if you are to stay married, sexually fulfilled in that marriage and monogamous. We all have to do that. Some of us (like my H) do not do that and thus have affairs. If those people (like my H) want to restore the marriage because of the happiness it brings them, and will bring them in a more profound way than sex in hotels with strangers ever will, they will have to actively focus their attention away from other people and onto their spouse. There is no other way to make marriage work except to deny the urge to destroy it by having sex with other people!
BW
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Oh good God NO! Sexuality makes us HUMAN, it's a perfectly natural thing! It's part of who I *am* which is what he signed up for. How I choose to act on that is one thing, as I have chosen to be monogamous, but the entire concept of eradicating a certain sexuality is just total nonsense, you cannot change someone's sexual orientation! No sooner could I stop being bisexual because I married a man and vowed to be monogamous, then I could stop knowing how to ride a bicycle or pour a glass because he'd rather I didn't do that either :p I can promise not to do any of those things if he doesn't want me to, but it doesn't change the programming. Sexuality even moreso. You just flat out cannot change it. You can hide it, camoflauge it, fake it- but your sexuality does NOT just "change". It's impossible. Arcadia, you are arguing against something that is not being argued here. We are arguing that the concept of a fixed "sexuality" is irrelevant when it comes to encouraging couples to fulfil each other's emotional needs as they must have done at some point if they were happy enough to marry. If they met each other's needs to the point that they once were in love enough to marry, then they can learn to meet them again and restore their marriage. All married people should guard themselves against the intimacy and flirting that leads to an affair. We ALL find other people attractive and can choose to focus on those attractions, or we can stay well away from the danger zone of other people and focus on our spouse. This is about behaviour, not sexuality. You have chosen to focus on your opposite-sex spouse and stay faithful to him. That is a CHOICE. Whether or not you have changed your sexuality from bi-sexual to heterosexual is irrelevant. You wil have to stay away from intimacy (including intimate conversation) with other people and focus your attention on your spouse if you are to stay married, sexually fulfilled in that marriage and monogamous. We all have to do that. Some of us (like my H) do not do that and thus have affairs. If those people (like my H) want to restore the marriage because of the happiness it brings them, and will bring them in a more profound way than sex in hotels with strangers ever will, they will have to actively focus their attention away from other people and onto their spouse. There is no other way to make marriage work except to deny the urge to destroy it by having sex with other people! I'm not really sure that you can say how sexuality is not relevant to the discussion when it clearly is. I certainly agree that maintaining monogamy is important- if you wish to remain married. However if I was homosexual I certainly would not want to remain married to someone of the opposite sex because it would be inherently unfair to the both of us (not to mention the message it would send to our children). That's just my personal opinion 
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That's a really easy assumption for a straight person to make, that it's just a 'behavior'. Because it's automatically acceptable to be straight (think how you would feel if someone was calling your sexual attraction to women in general just a behavior that you could totally change and start having sex with men instead, no big deal). When I was a teenager and came out as bisexual my brother said "you're not bisexual, how do you even KNOW? It's just something you're doing not what you are, what you are is straight, you're born that way." and I said to him "how do you know you're straight and not gay? If you had a gay experience wouldn't you still be straight?" he said he "just knows" but it's "not the same thing" for homosexuals. He has a different opinion now that he's grown and has had more homosexual acquaintences and learned more about gender and sexuality as a topic. Aradia, nobody forced you or anybody else who has an attraction to people of the same sex to get married. Nobody here on Marriage Builders is arguing that people attracted to others of the same sex should be forced to change their sexuality. What we ARE talking about here on Marriage Builders is people who are MARRIED and who are seeking to find ways to stay in the relationships they chose, that they encouraged a spouse to join with them, and in which, in most cases, they had children. THOSE people, Aradia - those people who have a spouse whose life has been devoted to the marriage for 10 or 20 years, and who have children whose lives will be badly affected by divorce, and who want help with avoiding the misery of marital breakdown and affairs - those are the people who seek help here at Marriage Builders. The sign on the door - Marriage Builders - says it all; building and rebuilding marriage is what people come here for. The people who come here made a choice to marry and they are looking for help with the marriage. Dr Harley's approach, which we posters try to help with, is to focus our sexual attention on our spouse and only our spouse. There must be hundreds of people that we cross paths with every day that we could find attractive if we looked hard enough. We could talk, flirt and have intimate conversations with those people to the point of an affair if we do not recognise the danger in those behaviours, or we believe that we should be free to "be ourselves". We knew we were giving up freedom to sexually engage with other people when we married, and nobody forced us to marry.
BW
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[ I certainly agree that maintaining monogamy is important- if you wish to remain married. However if I was homosexual I certainly would not want to remain married to someone of the opposite sex because it would be inherently unfair to the both of us (not to mention the message it would send to our children). That's just my personal opinion Affairs, marriages without sex and divorce are also unfair to the spouse who married in good faith, and to the children. These events are devastating to people's lives. People realise that the outcome of divorce will not make them or their children happy, and that is why to go to Dr Harley or come to this forum for help. They do not want to inflict the unfairness of "finding themselves' on people who depend on them and who trusted that they meant what they said when they married and embarked on a life together. You are talking about a man who was able to have a loving relationship with a woman to the point that he was able to persuade her that he loved her, and was able to make her want to marry him, and they were able to have sex to the point of having children. If that love and sex was possible to create in the past then it is posible to create it again, regardless of how he defines his sexuality today.
BW
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That's a really easy assumption for a straight person to make, that it's just a 'behavior'. Because it's automatically acceptable to be straight (think how you would feel if someone was calling your sexual attraction to women in general just a behavior that you could totally change and start having sex with men instead, no big deal). When I was a teenager and came out as bisexual my brother said "you're not bisexual, how do you even KNOW? It's just something you're doing not what you are, what you are is straight, you're born that way." and I said to him "how do you know you're straight and not gay? If you had a gay experience wouldn't you still be straight?" he said he "just knows" but it's "not the same thing" for homosexuals. He has a different opinion now that he's grown and has had more homosexual acquaintences and learned more about gender and sexuality as a topic. Arcadia, nobody forced you or anybody else who has an attraction to people of the same sex to get married. Nobody here on Marriage Builders is arguing that people attracted to others of the same sex should be forced to change their sexuality. What we ARE talking about here on Marriage Builders is people who are MARRIED and who are seeking to find ways to stay in the relationships they chose, that they encouraged a spouse to join with them, and in which, in most cases, they had children. THOSE people, Arcadia - those people who have a spouse whose life has been devoted to the marriage for 10 or 20 years, and who have children whose lives will be badly affected by divorce, and who want help with avoiding the misery of marital breakdown and affairs - those are the people who seek help here at Marriage Builders. The sign on the door - Marriage Builders - says it all; building and rebuilding marriage is what people come here for. The people who come here made a choice to marry and they are looking for help with the marriage. Dr Harley's approach, which we posters try to help with, is to focus our sexual attention on our spouse and only our spouse. There must be hundreds of people that we cross paths with every day that we could find attractive if we looked hard enough. We could talk, flirt and have intimate conversations with those people to the point of an affair if we do not recognise the danger in those behaviours, or we believe that we should be free to "be ourselves". We knew we were giving up freedom to sexually engage with other people when we married, and nobody forced us to marry. A lot of people bury their true sexualities for many years, especially since being gay is still not even that socially acceptable. Those people who have put decades into straight marriage only to 'realize' or finally come clean with the fact that they are homosexual, have every right to go to counseling to try to save their straight marriage if that's what they choose. But is this a better thing to do for the children than getting a divorce? That's highly debatable. The message you would be sending to your children is suppressing yourself is the right thing to do. I think it's a contentious manner and not as simple as you are making it out to be. I'm all for monogamy but that doesn't mean I have to agree on this one, it seems very unfortunate to me for one to deny their sexuality (not sexual ACTS, but sexuality- straight men aren't attracted to men, LOL). I'd support anyone's right to hold their straight marriage together even if they are gay but it's a very sad thing and in my opinion a good divorce is better than a bad marriage when it comes to the children. That's all I'm saying  Agree to disagree.
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[ I certainly agree that maintaining monogamy is important- if you wish to remain married. However if I was homosexual I certainly would not want to remain married to someone of the opposite sex because it would be inherently unfair to the both of us (not to mention the message it would send to our children). That's just my personal opinion Affairs, marriages without sex and divorce are also unfair to the spouse who married in good faith, and to the children. These events are devastating to people's lives. People realise that the outcome of divorce will not make them or their children happy, and that is why to go to Dr Harley or come to this forum for help. They do not want to inflict the unfairness of "finding themselves' on people who depend on them and who trusted that they meant what they said when they married and embarked on a life together. You are talking about a man who was able to have a loving relationship with a woman to the point that he was able to persuade her that he loved her, and was able to make her want to marry him, and they were able to have sex to the point of having children. If that love and sex was possible to create in the past then it is posible to create it again, regardless of how he defines his sexuality today. But what's more unfair, 'finding themselves' or living a lie with their spouse to appease them? Because you can't change your sexuality. And you may be 1) confusing love with marriage in this instance, marriage is a contract and many people marry not for love but for financial and cultural contracts, and 2) assuming that love can only be romantic. He could have deeply platonically loved his wife and was so ashamed of his sexuality that he forced himself to pretend he liked sex so as to keep her in his life. There are all kinds of love out there, he could be terrified to lose his best friend in his mind, not his lover, and so that's why he's keeping the marriage alive. He could also be scared of losing his children. There are many underlying motivating factors going on in this kind of scenario, I can only imagine. That's why I said, it's SAD.
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"Finding themselves" is a hurl-inducing statement.
Repairing a marriage that's been affected by a homosexual affair sends a message to the children of "Make your commitments carefully and keep them, no matter your own selfish desires" which I think is an AWESOME message for children.
Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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"Finding themselves" is a hurl-inducing statement.
Repairing a marriage that's been affected by a homosexual affair sends a message to the children of "Make your commitments carefully and keep them, no matter your own selfish desires" which I think is an AWESOME message for children. I personally don't know if 'stay married at ALL costs' is the right message for children. Sometimes divorce is warranted. And homosexual affairs don't happen- to straight men. No matter how anyone wants to ignore it sexuality comes into play here and the fairness of whether lying to yourself and living a lie with your spouse is the right thing to do or not. You can try to simplify that all you want but it's a very complicated emotional issue.
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[quote=SugarCane] But is this a better thing to do for the children than getting a divorce? That's highly debatable. The message you would be sending to your children is suppressing yourself is the right thing to do. I think it's a contentious manner and not as simple as you are making it out to be. I'm all for monogamy but that doesn't mean I have to agree on this one, it seems very unfortunate to me for one to deny their sexuality (not sexual ACTS, but sexuality- straight men aren't attracted to men, LOL). I'd support anyone's right to hold their straight marriage together even if they are gay but it's a very sad thing and in my opinion a good divorce is better than a bad marriage when it comes to the children. That's all I'm saying Agree to disagree. Marriage ALWAYS involves suppressing oneself, meaning not indulging in desires with other people. That is ALWAYS the right thing to do for the person who decided to marry. Dr Harley and people who help others on this forum are not trying to keep people in bad marriages as opposed to having a good divorce. You are setting up a false dichotomy, in which those are the only two poles. The goal is to help people have good marriages. Isn't that what you are seeking help with, by posting here?
BW
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"Finding themselves" is a hurl-inducing statement.
Repairing a marriage that's been affected by a homosexual affair sends a message to the children of "Make your commitments carefully and keep them, no matter your own selfish desires" which I think is an AWESOME message for children. Hear hear, CW.
BW
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[quote=SugarCane] But is this a better thing to do for the children than getting a divorce? That's highly debatable. The message you would be sending to your children is suppressing yourself is the right thing to do. I think it's a contentious manner and not as simple as you are making it out to be. I'm all for monogamy but that doesn't mean I have to agree on this one, it seems very unfortunate to me for one to deny their sexuality (not sexual ACTS, but sexuality- straight men aren't attracted to men, LOL). I'd support anyone's right to hold their straight marriage together even if they are gay but it's a very sad thing and in my opinion a good divorce is better than a bad marriage when it comes to the children. That's all I'm saying Agree to disagree. Marriage ALWAYS involves suppressing oneself, meaning not indulging in desires with other people. That is ALWAYS the right thing to do for the person who decided to marry. Dr Harley and people who help others on this forum are not trying to keep people in bad marriages as opposed to having a good divorce. You are setting up a false dichotomy, in which those are the only two poles. The goal is to help people have good marriages. Isn't that what you are seeking help with, by posting here? My vows included appreciating the individual AS an individual, I do NOT believe that you need to suppress yourself to be married. And certainly I agree the goal of marriage builders is to help people have good marriages, but in my opinion the definition of a 'good marriage' does not include living a life of pretense which is what any gay person in a straight marriage is doing. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, sugarcane.
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(I'm a long time open bisexual in a straight monogamous marriage- but I would never claim to or seek to erase any physical desires for women just because I married a man and have vowed to only have sex with him). That's an interesting perspective ... to me, I would seek to erase any physical desires for anyone (man, woman, child, muppet, whatever) else other than my spouse. I would seek to reinforce desires for my wife and diminish any other competing desires. That's part of my agreement to forsake all others. Oh good God NO! Wow, that seems to be a strong emotional reaction to my differing point of view. Rather intolerant. It is my marriage, after all, and it might be different than yours, and I should hope that is okay. Sexuality makes us HUMAN, it's a perfectly natural thing! I'm missing the part where I said that sexuality was bad or unnatural. It's part of who I *am* which is what he signed up for. Okay, so the terms of your marriage are different than mine. Prisca signed up for me doing my best to make sure that attractions to anyone else are never strengthened. I don't see that this difference between my marriage and your marriage means we need to be disrespectful toward each other or that we can't discuss our differences. you cannot change someone's sexual orientation! You cannot prove a point by repeated assertion, either. No sooner could I stop being bisexual I think I pretty much said above that I'm coming to believe that everyone is bisexual or potentially bisexual, so I don't think I'm asking anyone to be bisexual. I'm simply suggesting that certain habits of attraction might be harmful to marriage and don't need to be reinforced.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, sugarcane. That's fine. I didn't ask you to agree with me. You posted an argument and I posted mine. There is no need for us to agree, and I wasn't seeking that.
BW
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Wow, that seems to be a strong emotional reaction to my differing point of view. Rather intolerant. It is my marriage, after all, and it might be different than yours, and I should hope that is okay. Sexuality makes us HUMAN, it's a perfectly natural thing! I'm missing the part where I said that sexuality was bad or unnatural. It's part of who I *am* which is what he signed up for. Okay, so the terms of your marriage are different than mine. Prisca signed up for me doing my best to make sure that attractions to anyone else are never strengthened. I don't see that this difference between my marriage and your marriage means we need to be disrespectful toward each other or that we can't discuss our differences. you cannot change someone's sexual orientation! You cannot prove a point by repeated assertion, either. No sooner could I stop being bisexual I think I pretty much said above that I'm coming to believe that everyone is bisexual or potentially bisexual, so I don't think I'm asking anyone to be bisexual. I'm simply suggesting that certain habits of attraction might be harmful to marriage and don't need to be reinforced. [/quote] I just have a vibrant personality, I'm not being defensive :p in the "oh good god no!" I probably say that multiple times a day, it's just the way I speak, I'm very animated (so is my mom, I got it from her).
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The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers identify sexual orientation as "not merely a personal characteristic that can be defined in isolation. Rather, one�s sexual orientation defines the universe of persons with whom one is likely to find the satisfying and fulfilling relationships": Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as a characteristic of the individual, like biological sex, gender identity, or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is always defined in relational terms and necessarily involves relationships with other individuals. Sexual acts and romantic attractions are categorized as homosexual or heterosexual according to the biological sex of the individuals involved in them, relative to each other. Indeed, it is by acting�or desiring to act�with another person that individuals express their heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. This includes actions as simple as holding hands with or kissing another person. Thus, sexual orientation is integrally linked to the intimate personal relationships that human beings form with others to meet their deeply felt needs for love, attachment, and intimacy. In addition to sexual behavior, these bonds encompass nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support, and ongoing commitment. Case No. S147999 in the Supreme Court of the State of California, In re Marriage Cases Judicial Council Coordination Proceeding No. 4365(�) - APA California Amicus Brief - As Filed" (PDF). http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/...chological_Assn_Amicus_Curiae_Brief.pdf. Retrieved 2010-12-21. Best
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I personally don't know if 'stay married at ALL costs' is the right message for children. Sometimes divorce is warranted. And homosexual affairs don't happen- to straight men. No matter how anyone wants to ignore it sexuality comes into play here and the fairness of whether lying to yourself and living a lie with your spouse is the right thing to do or not. You can try to simplify that all you want but it's a very complicated emotional issue. It's really not that complicated at all. In fact, homosexual affairs are much easier to bust up than hetero affairs. The affairs are much shorter lived than hetero affairs. Adultery is all about sexuality and it is not "living a lie" to give it up, it is therapeutic. Dr Harley is a clinical psychologist and he has saved many such marriages. EnlightenedEx was right, we all have various "attractions" at various points in our lives, doesn't mean we are condemned by them.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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(think how you would feel if someone was calling your sexual attraction to women in general just a behavior that you could totally change and start having sex with men instead, no big deal). That's pretty much exactly what Dr. Harley says, and I don't think any straights here are offended by it. I could be wrong.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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