Individual pursuits are ok - but they should come second to time together. Thus, if he wants to play golf, he should schedule it when you are doing something as well like working. It should come AFTER your 15-20 hours. If it is a choice between golf and time with you and you feel he hasn't spent enough quality time with you, then golf takes a back seat. It is a matter of priority.

DH and I have our own individual interests. We just make sure we do them at times that don't conflict with one another: I read after he goes to bed. He works out between classes. He watches anime while I'm doing other chores, I watch my shows when he's out. Our time with one another is sacrosanct.

Now the danger of spending Recreational time with other people is that Recreational Companionship is an intimate emotional need, and so doing it creates strong Love Bank deposits. If he is spending his most enjoyable time with someone other than you that is dangerous. It is robbing you of the opportunity of making those strong deposits and thus strengthening your marriage, but it can also provide the opportunity for another person to make those deposits, thus creating feelings of companionship and intimacy between them. This could be dangerous if it is another woman who comes along golfing with him - even if they aren't alone together. Thus, you could consider requesting he golf only with men as a way to protect your marriage from another woman sharing that intimate, enjoyable time with your husband.

Wow, what a great excuse for him not to try. Is there any chance you can persuade him to come post here and talk to us?

If you take the idea of "program" out of it, for a minute, what you want is more time together, and the first thing program tells you to do is spend more time together. Am I right on both those counts? So why in the world would he be concerned that giving you exactly what you ask for wouldn't work?


Dr. Harley says regularly there's no problem with time and recreational pursuits spent alone in marriage as long as:
* The husband and wife are following the Policy of Undivided Attention (spending a minimum of fifteen hours per week giving each other their undivided attention meeting intimate emotional needs, including the need for recreational companionship)
* The husband and wife are each other's favorite recreational companions. (This can be achieved by following the POUA long enough. )
* The specific activity and its circumstances are enthusiastically agreed to by both husband and wife: for example, she approves of what he is going to do, where he is going to do it, and with whom.

Dr. Harley himself sometimes takes in a movie without his wife Joyce, for example. He saw one of the newer Star Wars movies that way. He did not go see Da Vinci Code, because Joyce didn't want either one of them to see it. They spend about 22 hours together every day, so they follow the POUA, and they are definitely each other's favorite recreational companions. If they were having marital trouble, he would not be out watching movies without her.

Why would he have to give up golf?

Is there any reason he cannot golf with you?

If he thinks he will lose golf as a result of the program, I can see why he's skeptical and wary.

What did you present that he would get out of this that he's been wanting, but hasn't experienced?

If the program comes across to him as you are going to fix him, such as if he golfs, that means he's broken and to fix him he has to give up golf, the sure, he's not going to embrace the program.

But if you actually present the program as, H, you've wanted more _________, and by using this program we can get to where you get as much ________, as you want. This program is about solutions that are win-win solutions. Not fixing you, or telling you what you are doing wrong.

So what can you present that would give your husband something he wants from the program and what plan have you presented to show him that the program has a chance of actually doing that for him?

Wow, obviously, lots of problems with the golfing.

Not only is it an IB but it is time consuming, it is expensive and it is taking away from the OP and her H spending UA & RC time together - a big no no.

Dr Harley states in HNHN that he had to give up chess playing even though he loved it because it was time consuming and because Joyce didn't enjoy playing.

In addition, Dr Harley insists that couples give up all recreational ativites that spouses do apart until they are each other's favorite recreational companions.

From HNHN, pg 94:
"When I counsel a couple who have not yet learned how to be each other's favorite recreational companions, I give them a radical assignment: Engage in only those recreational activities that you and your spouse can enjoy together."

oops double post

oops

Yeah but...if my H was presented with the idea to give up the golfing until we fix our M and he can add it back in once the M is fixed and he refused, I would be skeptical and wary of the him and the M, you know?

Susie is right, Dr H would tell him to give up golf unless it is something they enjoy together. Individual hobbies that take away from the marriage, like his golf, should go.

Yeppers. Thank God my H loves golf as much as I do! I'd hate to have to sell my clubs. But you can bet I'd do it in a heartbeat. Golf doesn't even figure on the Importance Scale when it comes to my marriage.

We talked more about it. He is hung up somewhat on the POJA. He is golfing this morning, we agreed he would go today but not again until we work this out.

I am scheduled to be on the radio program Monday.

I think one of the problems in this situation with getting him on board with POJA is he's going to have to give up the golf for right now. So if he's not used to POJA, he's going to look at like he's sacrificing because, well, he's giving up golf and she's giving up nothing.

Was he enthusiastic about not golfing at all?

People who are accustomed to IB have the hardest time giving it up. Ask Melody. Or my H.

She gave up being a SAHM for him and the family, remember, kt? She hasn't given up 'nothing'. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that she wouldn't be so resentful over that if she felt that he, too, was 'all in' and willing to do what it takes for the family. Instead of just himself. Remember my H feeling manipulated into having to consider me???

FH, I can't wait to hear you on the show! I'm sure a lot of us will listen in, but please do come here and recap your experience.

As an example of some POJA possibility brain storming...


Maybe he'd be "enthusiastic" about doing the MB program if you were "enthusiastic" about GOING golfing with him at least once a month this summer.

Even if you don't play...just go alone, take part in conversation and drive the beer cart so to speak. Even though you aren't playing it might still be a good respite from the, did I read this right, EIGHT kids at home. Some fresh air and sun will do you good to. You MAY enjoy it and we KNOW he will.

Just a suggestion. If it sounds completely miserable to you and you'd never truly be "enthusiastic" about going along with your husband while HE golfs then don't bother. Basically...you'd be TRYING out whether going golfing with him is a recreational activity you both enjoy. Golf is really a lot of driving around looking for your ball more than actually swinging the club. Also...perhaps you could "walk" the course instead of using a cart. Good exercise perhaps.

Another thought...are some of the kids old enough to golf too? Then maybe your husband CAN occasionally golf but only if he takes a couple of the kids with him. That way he's lightening your burden and maybe he can teach them something (a homeschool lesson of some sort) while they are out.

2 jobs AND you homeschool that many children. I don't see how anyone can be happy in that setup. Why not enroll the kids this fall and work on your marriage? I think your marriage is WAY more important than where the children go to school. Besides if you were to divorce...wouldn't homeschooling become impossible anyway (necessitating enrolling in regular school anyway)?

Just some ideas.

Mr. Wondering

People who practice independent behavior have a hard time initially with the POJA. They tend to think in black and white and are not accustomed to finding creative solutions that would benefit the marriage. And why should they not view it as anything other than "sacrifice" if it is not presented in context? If he doesn't understand that there is a payoff for giving up golf, then why would he do it? Giving up something without a payoff is a sacrifice, which leads to resentment.

But done in the context of this program, it is the equivalent of stopping smoking. It was a MAJOR SACRIFICE for me to quit smoking 4 packs a day, but the payoff was much greater than my enjoyment of smoking. Therefore, it wasn't a sacrifice, it was simply trading UP to something better: GOOD HEALTH. That is how the POJA works.

You are trading UP for something better, not sacrificing.

I scored at the very top range of IB on Dr Harley's personality test and I will be the first to admit that my biggest problem WAS my IB, yet I happily adopted the POJA instead once I understood the benefits. But I until I understood there was a payoff I sure was not giving up nothing!

This is why it is so important to sell the program to a spouse in a way that they understand the BENEFITS. People buy things when they perceive a BENEFIT. If there is no benefit, they don't buy.

That is why I wanted you to talk to Dr Harley. Let Dr Harley explain WHY he should be willing to use his program and how it will benefit him. I am glad to hear you will be on the air on Monday with him.

People usually don't have a problem wiht the POJA when they really understand it. And if they still won't use it once they do understand, then that is an indicator that a happy marriage would be impossible with this person.

Oh I know. I was just thinking that since he's not used to the POJA benefits, when she says "I'm not enthusiastic about you golfing for an indiscriminate amount of time" he might have a hard time buying into it. This would seem a sacrifice on his part.



I agree with this. If they were getting their 15-20 hours of UA time together, I think the issue of him golfing would prob go away because his frequency would get a lot lower.

I've gone golfing with him before and he just doesn't seem to enjoy it as much with me. He has this group of guys, one is his best friend since high school, and it's the competition they enjoy. Also, our boys ask off and on to go with him, he takes them once in a great while but that's it. Earlier this week I had asked if he'd take our one son fishing this weekend. He really needs more outside activities, which I can't really provide with my schedule. Dh said yes. But instead he ended up golfing and his Mom wants him over to work on her mower. There goes today. Then he's out of town all week.

I'm just glad he's willing to fill out the questionnaires and read the book. I've committed myself to working things out calmly and without angry outbursts. I need to focus on that.

Oh, and about the homeschooling. That is not our problem. We both enthusiastically like it and it has never come into question. 6 of our 8 children are still at home. The oldest is married and second oldest in college. I've homeschooled them all the way through and we feel it's made our family closer and they do very well academically and in life.

She sounds like a long term dedicated homeschool mom to me. It is WAY up there on the list of priorities to some of us. I was able to keep homeschooling when I divorced my WxH. It is a matter of priorities. Every financial decision I made during the divorce was based upon my desire to continue hs'ling as long as possible.

I do agree that the marriage has to be more important than hs'ling, but unless her dh is opposed to the homeschooling I doubt they will have to give it up.

Golf is expensive. And he is working out of town, which is also expensive. And she makes more money than him in her professional field. So the obvious solution to me would be for HIM to stay at home with the kids. I can't imagine why he won't. She mentioned they had thought of that or tried that but he doesn't 'do it well.'

I wonder, how he could do it worse than it is probably being done now with her working so much. In other words, it sounds like a lot of the kids must be doing 'self directed' learning....which is fine...I just dont' get why dad can't be the one to be at home with them for whatever guidance they need.

Ooops. Guess I should have read the entire thread first.

FH, how is the situation with your mother-in-law? Can you enlist her help in encouraging her son to spend more time with his family? I don't know what your relationship is like. I'm hoping that she just doesn't have a clue and doesn't realize that she is asking for a huge portion of his total spare time.

I'm glad you're getting help and your H seems willing (if a bit clueless himself at the present time).