Sigh of relief.

Custody orders are normally entered in connection with a petition for separation or divorce, and I see you want to avoid those words at this point.

Ask your lawyer whether your state allows for the original action of a Suit Affecting the Parent Child Relationship. It is the vehicle that is used by child protective services to remove kids from the home and terminate their parental rights, but CPS may not be the only entity that can use that vehicle.

Other thoughts I have:

Ask your lawyer to look at it like an action for declaratory relief.

Ask your lawyer whether you could file as the children's guardian in their names asserting their rights to have the laws of your state applied. That one is iffy, but it's a thought.

Your lawyer may have to get creative, but it's not like your WW here to nit pick about the proper parties and causes of action. The thing is to get it in front of a judge by whatever means necessary and get that piece of paper. Once the judge understands the impact of the Hague Convention, he won't be able to sign the thing fast enough.

The ultimate ruling you are looking for it that the laws of your state will apply to all custody issues until the children are 18. If she hires someone to contest that ruling, you will have a pretty good idea of what her plan is.

One more thing -- I am sure you had to sign an affidavit consenting for her to take the kids out of the country. Make sure your petition requests an order revoking that consent, and the order recites the court's finding that it was revoked. This is important. As we sit here today, she is the only one who has a piece of paper with a seal on it. She's sure to wave it around if the going gets tough.

Make sure your lawyer understands that these are the ONLY defenses to a return of the child to it's country of habitual residence for determination of custody issues:

(a) by preponderance of evidence, that Petitioner was not �actually exercising custody rights at the time of the removal or retention� under Article 13; or

(b) by preponderance of the evidence, that Petitioner �had consented to or acquiesced in the removal or retention� under Article 13; or

(c) by preponderance of the evidence, that more than one year has passed from the time of wrongful removal or retention until the date of the commencement of judicial or administrative proceedings, under Article 12; or

(d) by preponderance of the evidence, that the child is old enough and has a sufficient degree of maturity to knowingly object to being returned to the Petitioner and that it is appropriate to heed that objection, under Article 13; or

(e) by clear and convincing evidence, that �there is grave risk that the child�s return would expose the child to physical or psychological harm or otherwise place the child in an intolerable situation,� under Article 13(b); or

(f) by clear and convincing evidence, that return of the child would subject the child to violation of basic human rights and fundamental freedoms.

You will notice that our constitutional mandates of "notice and an opportunity to be heard" in any underlying action she files are NOT on the list of defenses, nor are "I wasn't ready to give up on my M" and "I was afraid of driving her further away" or "my lawyer said told me the order wouldn't have any teeth to it".

This is deadly serious. If your lawyer doesn't get that, GET A NEW LAWYER.

Outstanding advice Sosick. In my unmarried daughter's custody case, she was able to file an original SAPCR and was able to get managing conservatorship. We're in Texas. I'm sure other states allow that as well as it's a common scenario nowadays.

We had a Hague Convention case years ago where a father took his family over to another country and then proceeded to abuse and ostrasize his wife. He told her she was free to leave but the children were staying. It ended with a relative helping to smuggle the children to a nearby country that were members of the Hague Convention. She was then awarded custody and flew back home with the children. I don't remember all the details, just that it was heck trying to get dad served in the country where he resided.

The Hague isn't recognized in the country where they are residing. I think I already knew that. I'm coming out of a bunch of confusion about other things, too.

There may be other remedies. My wife and I have fairly powerful friends in this country. It's a country where friends in the right places can make things happen. Those of them who know the situation are willing to help me right now. I can keep it that way. My wife, like I'm sure many others in her situation, has been alienating herself from everyone except a select few, and I've now had to expose her actions to those few.

My attorney might be able to do something to help, too. If there's nothing we can do for the situation oversees, there may be something we can do right now to make things more secure for the children when I get them home.

The only thing I signed were the passports. I did that after she cut off the EA (something that didn't last very long). We had both planned on travelling with the children.

Before this trip, unfortunately, I wasn't able to get the passports into my hands. She may have forged my name for some of the travel, but I doubt it. This country has been lax about requiring parental forms lately. I was left with the options of physically restraining the trip or getting a temporary court order. I felt either of those things would create further barriers to the marriage and, to be honest, I didn't believe the WW would actually do this.

Edit: One more thing. I believe there are some rock bottom moments taking place and some worse ones ahead. I don't wish those on her, but they're probably going to be required. Don't worry, I'm not trusting that the rock bottom moments will actually change anything. They might. I'm hopeful that they do, but then again...

I'm making sure I have better contact and some people around the children if things really do get worse. Then again, things might get better and she might start thinking that splitting up the family was the best thing she ever did. Uhg!

Sigh again.

I was afraid of that but for some reason was under the impression she went to a Spanish speaking nation, most if not all of which are signatory countries.

Check the airline's website and see if they require a release from the other parent to board.

If they do, and their policy wasn't followed, they will be as powerful advocate for you, in both influence in the country and legal talent. Even if she forged the document, there is exposure for the airline.

Gonna have to think about this some more.

BTW, I noticed your comments about tone. Maybe this analogy will help you understand it a little bit better. I can assure you that if you came to me for legal advice on a matter as gravely important as the custodial issue and I felt like you weren't listening and willing to follow my advice I would get sharp with you, not to make you feel bad or stupid or unworthy, but because I have seen the misery that results when the right steps aren't followed, and I want to spare you that.

These posters here are exactly the same. They know the right steps to take. They haven't just seen -- they have experienced the misery that results when those steps aren't followed, they want to spare you that misery and they are willing to get sharp with you if needed.

I know you are in such pain and fear you feel paralyzed. Let them lead you.

The new attorney is one of the best in the area. Only a small amount of international cases, but I believe he knows enough. Those who specialize in international cases are on the other side of my state.

Again, in my state, I would have to file for a legal separation (or a divorce) with a parenting plan (how custody is handled here). I may have to do that right now. That way the courts will have a much better chance of recognizing that the children would be better off without all these crazy disruptions.

Filing something now would also help me greatly if the WW decided to end the marriage down the road. In my state, mothers almost always end up making all the decisions for children after a divorce. Fathers, generally, are only allowed visitations. The courts don't really care if the mothers are out having affairs. Fortunately, I have past travels of the WW (when I was the sole provider for the children), the Internet addiction (EA) known by others, and even her friends and her own family have been concerned about her parenting. All the children are close to me. Most people are shocked that she abandoned three of her children (while taking the other two from their father). Even in a state like this, I probably have a case.

Our court orders may not be enforceable in this other country, but the children will be coming home. I'll make sure that happens.

Edit: There's one more big stick in the fire. If I get court orders served now, I might create a situation where the WW never returns to this state knowing she will lose custody of the children. That's not too great for the children or for me. If I wait until they come back sometime for a vacation, though, I might create a situation where I can be walked all over and lose access to my children with whatever the WW continues to want to do. If I don't do anything, the state would probably support that. Actually, I think the WW is feeling a lot of guilt again and doesn't even want the kids to come home for vacation.

Ugh! Maybe I should just hire an attorney in this other country and use some contacts to see if I can fly over there with tickets for the children. I could then serve the court orders myself while bringing home the children.

If the WW were reading this, she would be thinking that I'm the most evil person in the world. Don't worry, she's been too whacked to feel enough remorse to visit sites like this. If some of her friends saw this, they wouldn't tip her off because they don't support what she's doing.

I caution you against posting about specifics between you and your attorney. All of those communications are absolutely privileged. I would hate for your WW's attorney to get a hold of these postings and try to argue some sort of waiver of that privilege. I hope you never get to that point of course, but it pays to guard the privilege.

Family court can bring out a side of people, attorneys and clients, that will make you despair for the future of humanity.

I'm not saying you have done waived anything by any means -- just a word to the wise.

It wouldn't be that simple because generally service isn't effected unless it's done by a disinterested 3rd person (if allowed) or by a process server specifically authorized by the court who issues the order. That would be a moot point anyway if the country where she is doesn't recognize the jurisdiction of the Court who issues the order.

Is there any way you could get to where she is and just take them back? As long as there is NO court order in place, you would probably be within your rights (check with an attorney first!).

I should probably start a new post one of these days because I have some questions to ask. I thought those who followed this original topic should know that I finally had to hire an attorney. The attorney and I decided to ask for local temporary court orders to return the children from abroad. (The Hague isn't often followed in the foreign country and the process would have been prohibitive.)

I got on some planes and found everyone. Unfortunately, the court orders weren't followed by the wife. Passports were hidden. International intrigue ensued (actually, it was just a lot of horrible uncertainty and huge expenses, nothing too exciting). The good news is that I was able to peacefully pick up the kids before the wife understood that I was leaving one way or another, with or without her help. After several weeks, the children and I returned safely home.

It's been wonderful to have the children together and to have them all back in a secure environment.

Edit: For those who were following the legal questions, I should mention that the U.S. court orders were needed to create the opportunity to pick up the children peacefully and to have the support of the U.S. Department of State while trying to leave this other country. I had to begin the process of a legal separation to receive the court orders.

Glad to hear you got your kids back.
Congratulations! Keep us posted I would love to hear more about what is going on3with you and your wife now that you have your kids back in the states. PS I would suggest that you get the kids put on a passport list that requires you to be contacted if your wife claims the passports were lost and she orders new ones. It has happened before and she could just take the kids from school or from wherever without your knowledge. I can not remember what it is called but it is on the US passport website.

Good luck!

Congrats on getting all of your kids back!