Hi,
I have been reading this forum for some time now, 2 years actually.
My daughter's H left her for OW about 2 years ago and he is still together with this OW. Fortunately my daughter and XWH did not have kids so there is no need for contact. They divorced soon after the affair and they have not spoken since.

I happen to know about her XH being with OW because I am still in touch my my daughter's ex in laws who live in my same town, are wonderful and never supported their son and his OW.
I like MB concept and I am glad my daughter did the right thing by cutting out contact right away and D soon after.

I do have a comment however, about the way MB sees the affairs.
Unfortunately they do last and in my experience I have seen countless people stay with the OW or OM for years.
I truly think that the WS and the OP develop a love relationship that is very similar to any other love relationship there is in this world. They become fond of eachother and the more time they spend together the more they fall in love and stay together.
I know there are countless WS who swear they were unhappy during the A, but there are many others who either don't say or who were and are happier in the A than in the M.
The proof of it is that they stay with OP and do not seek their spouse ever again.
We also have to keep in mind that people who cheat have a different set of values from those who do not and from the BS/
They do not see cheating as wrong (many actually choose to cheat, others might say they fell into the affair without knowing how it happened). But again, some consciously choose to cheat.
Those have no remorse nor feel any guilt. Especially if there are no kids and or if the kids are grown ups. They just feel they love someone else and that the BS is an adult and should deal with it.
I don't even know why I felt the urge to post this. I do like MB a lot and I am a great fan.
Maybe I just feel that the newly betrayed have to understand that many many affairs last a long long time and that, if there are no kids or they are grown up the chance of the WS coming back or asking to recover the M are very very slim.

Also, the newly betrayed who is facing a cold and distant WS(one that is basically plan Bing them rather than the other way around) should know that this type of WS is gone pretty much for good.
These conclutions come thru experience (I am over 60)and reading here since my daughter went thru the affair and the D (2 years or so).
Thank you for listening

You aren't actually wondering about infidelity, just so you know.

And I am not sure what your point is. Do you think that we, the betrayed posters on here, don't know what's going on, or the psychology behind the affairs?

I think you are failing to understand that anecdotes, even deeply personal, do not data make. And Dr. Harley has the data ( and a lot of other well respected researchers concur with him, such as Glass).

I am very sorry for your daughter's pain.

Swans, while you believe your POV to be sound, I will have to side with the creator of this site. He has more experience with infidelity than any of us could imagine. He has studied this subject, as have countless other counselors and psychologists. They all agree that MOST affairs die a natural death within 2 years.

My own personal observations have been entirely different than yours. I do know of affair that have lasted longer than 2 years(one that lasted over 30) BUT, they were NOT happy together. They actually were quite unhappy. My mother ended her own affair last May after almost 2 years, and all of her children are grown. We put pressure on the affair by not accepting it. She has since told me that that was one of the many reasons the affair didn't last. Also, that she always loved my dad and the feelings that she thought she had with OM were NOT real.

There are some people who have fallen too far down that slippery slope and they never return. Some return years later, only the betrayed spouse has already moved on. I have seen that in my sister's marriage and that of my sister-in-law.

Each betrayed spouse has their own path to walk. Sometimes, MB doesn't work to save a marriage, but the personal recovery gained within the program is well worth the work. The most beneficial part of MB personal recovery is that the BS can move forward with no regrets. They will know that they did everything within their power to save their marriage. There will be no lingering "what ifs" and for that, I am forever grateful.

Have you now used MB in your own marriage to make it spectacular? Have you shown your daughter the resources here, so she may have an even greater 2nd marriage(should she so choose)?

hi Ridic,
yes, you are right, I am not wondering about infidelity. I know it is painful and bad. No wonder there.
I guess the point I am making is that an affair is love story between 2 people. It is not any different than any 2 people falling in love.
I agree that other people's stories and anectodes do not make sound data. However they do tell us about human nature and their tendencies.
I know very few affairs that ended in 2 years and know many more that lasted longer. Even on this forum.
Again, Harley has the data.
thank you

How long was your daughter married to her WXH? From your age, inferring hers, I would guess that would have been something longer than two years. Were those first few years of their marriage pleasant and "perfect"?

So now WXH and his skank-ho are married two years and you're vexed that they may have built a "more perfect" life together?

Patience. Buy the popcorn, and watch the drama unfold. A man who will cheat with a woman will cheat ON a woman, just as easily, and more certainly.

Your posts sound very foggy to me. Are you yourself in an affair, or have you been?

To witness such devastation an affair can cause a marriage, how could you call it a love story? How could you say that it isn't any different than any 2 people falling in love? It is not even on the same level.

I do not know what your point was with this thread. It seems that the point was to inflict pain on betrayed spouses going through the most devastating moments in their lives. I hope I am wrong about that. Your future posts can prove me wrong.

Hi Scotland,
my H died when my daughter was little. I never remarried.
My daughter has no intention to start another relationship. she is happy with her job and her hobbies. So she tells me. I have directed her to this forum and she has read some posts. We agree with Harleys principles. She has no contact and never will again.
I see that you have different experiences with affairs. as you said these are personal things and the data is based on research and Harley has done that for years.
thank you

In my 46 years, I know of only one A that's lasted longer than 2 years, and I'm not sure that I'd refer to the partners as "happy". They are still together though. I also know of many more that ended in unhappiness for all parties concerned.

I'm just curious though about your particular interest in "lasting" As and the "love" shared between the two partners in the A. Is this being driven by your personal experience, i.e. was your M influenced by, or a result of, an A?

Hi swans, and thank you for your thoughts. I think you'll find many on here who disagree with you, having read of countless affairs that were ended with the WS returning to the M. What happens after that determines the level of their happiness, of course. Changing the conditions in the M that led to the affair is critical.

There is no 100% 'cure' for infidelity, just as no two humans are alike. And the fact that affairees remain in their affairage doesn't necessarily mean they are happy or unhappy. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Maybe they're maintaining the status quo, or found too late that they made a terrible mistake. There are just too many variables in emotion to be able to say with any certainty how happy or unhappy they feel.

We also frequently hear of the WS marrying their affair partner and then proceeding to cheat on them, as well. Or their affair partner cheats. The relationship was built on deception and lies, so that's not unusual.

In your daughter's case, there were no children and her marriage was of short duration. We often will suggest to a betrayed spouse in that situation that they leave the marriage.

It is also common for a WS to be cold and distant to their BS. It's one of the traits of a wayward. Many, many waywards who behaved this way while in the fog of their affair have been successfully brought back to their marriage. When the fog lifts, they look back and are aghast at their behavior while in the affair.

The bottom line is that this site is dedicated to building marriages. Obviously, ridding the marriage of a third party is required in order to make a great marriage. No one has said that all marriages can be saved, nor should some be saved. But if there is a chance at all that the wayward can be returned to the marriage and rebuilding that marriage can begin, the tools that are on this site are the best available to help them rebuild.

My intention was not to hurt.
My daughter's M lasted 15 years. They could not have kids.
My daughter/s ex in laws tell me XH and OW are happy together and that XH has no regrets about leaving my daughter. (I do not report these things to my daughter of course!)
I am not romanticizing this, I am sad for my daughter's M and how it ended.
I do not think affairs should be romanticized nor I thing BS should believe that the experience my daughter's XWH had witth is the norm. From what Harley says is rather the exception as most people in affairs seem to be deeply unhappy/
thank you

Oh, I'm seeing that your D was married for fifteen years. I wonder how long they were happy together? Had they drifted apart? It's sad to see a marriage end when it's lasted that long, but still not unusual. In that case, the two don't have the 'glue' of children to anchor them at home, and they lead fairly independent lives, which makes an affair possible.

*edit

"I'm just curious though about your particular interest in "lasting" As and the "love" shared between the two partners in the A. Is this being driven by your personal experience, i.e. was your M influenced by, or a result of, an A?"
_________________________

I just know that my daughter, even if she does not say, is still hoping her XH will some day go back to her. They had a good M and loved eachother deeply.
For some reason I was hoping that too. XWH seemed to be nice and it still makes me wonder why he did what he did..thus the reason why I think it must be true love with OW...
In a way I was hoping that Harley's statistics could work also in my daughter's case...

Sure, some do stay together. But most don't. Statistics bear this out. Harley has been citing that 95% of affairs end within 2 years. He said this week that newer studies show it is 97%. So yes, you can point to some that did not crumble, but the exception does not disprove the rule.

I think that this is a tough subject and that there are affair couples that make it work and they truly seem happy, my SIL was married with two young girls and married for 6 years or so and then met a man she worked with had an affair and left her husband for this man, the OM was 10 years older than her, the whole thing happened very quickly maybe 6 months or so, they were typical wayward and OM, telling everyone there wasn't an affair until after the separation, but we all know when a new guys moves in a week after the husband moves out it was a lie they were telling everyone........but it has been about 10 years now, they have a child together and they seem happy together.. My SIL just says they just connected on a level that was different than anything they had ever felt before in any other relationship.......right or wrong.......they have made it work........
So I guess just like any other relationships some of them work as well no matter how they got together.........
I think that affair relationships have their own set of problems, the reasons they got together in the first place have to come into play, trust, lies, and adultery must make you question the person you are with..........
Some people are better at making it work than others in any marriage.........
I do think a lot of affair couples really have a problem with the reality apposed to the fantasy life they were living, when real life hits you and you have no history to draw on it's hard to weather the bad..............I think your daughter's marriage might have been easier on her XWH because of the fact there were no children, he didn't have to be pulled between the two women so it was easier to move on......
It may have been a different story............I read a story yesterday about someone who got back together with her husband after many years apart, and those years apart had No Contact as well...........they spoke one day and the rest was history, they are remarried now and happpy, so it can happen.......
I hope your daughter is finding peace and happiness in her life now.........
It is sad after 15 years..........

Swans-

Afairs aren't true love. They are two damaged people coming together in a fantasy that isn't sustainable in the real world.

It's a relationship built on lies, deceit, and utter disregard for both the content of marriage vows, or respect for one another.

That's not true love. It's gross. And if you've actually read on here for years, you would understand that.

I absolutely hate to say this- but from the way you are posting, I would have to assume at some point you have engaged in an affair yourself, because you sure are trying to put lipstick on a pig.

HUH?




BTW, IRL I know of one affairage that lasted 5 years and ended with one of the two having another A. I don't know that I have ever heard of any affairage with a happy ending except for Dr Harley's boat story where the man said his affairage had been a good M but if he could turn back time he wouldn't have had the A because of how it ruined everything else in his life, financial, relationship with kids, etc.

Swans, has your daughter considered coming here to post?

I reread her first post and I am not buying her story.

Why in the world would you post the opinions that she did on a forum with hurting BSs??

She states that she has been reading here for two years and is familiar with MB concepts but that is obviously not true or she would know how many As fall apart.

I suspect she is an OW.

I smell some fishy stuff here, myself.

I agree. I regret taking the bait. And if she's being straight up, I actually feel sorry for her daughter, because that kind of support isn't support at all. It's hurtful.