To not disrupt another thread, and I don't intend this as a calling out on another poster so I will delete the name, but I read this:


And I was highly offended.

I know what makes a good man, and I'm a woman. This applies to all men, in all relationships, whether they are sons, fathers, brothers, husbands, bosses, co-workers or friends. What makes a good man?

INTEGRITY.

The same thing that makes anyone a good human being.

Being whole, entire, and undiminished. Adhering to moral and ethical principles (that they even get to choose themselves!) and being upfront and honest in all dealings.

What more could there possibly be?

Do I really NOT KNOW what makes a good man?

CWMI, no, sadly, we don't. As women in their world, we don't. And they don't know what makes a good woman, either. Sometimes they already have a good woman, and they leave her. (Not the guys in question, of course.) We know what we want in a good man - that varies according to the woman.

I agree that integrity is huge, but is also just a part of the puzzle. I wouldn't be offended - there is just so much that comes into play. It's just not a formula at all.

Boy, I do seem to remember the rest of MY post saying that men don't know what makes a good woman.

Why? Because we want some kind of beastly amalgam that is a lady in public, whiz in the home, and a porn star in the bedroom.

Really?

Come on! Not gonna happen!

Hello?

No, I will not from this day forward allow accountability of my masculinity to be held by women, as that is how it got fouled up in the first place.

It's no better than the women who try to be "one of the boys."

We are different. The equation is not better or worse, less than or more than, just different.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_differences.html

I was going to suggest what has been said before.

Or that if folks KNOW what makes a good man or woman, not all act in a fashion that indicates that's what they really want. After all, if someone is good, why would you leave them. If they were good enough to choose, why are they no longer good enough when the wayward spouse walks out? Either they didn't recognize the person really wasn't good. Or they no longer recognize the good they originally observed. Either way, the evidence indicates they didn't or don't know what makes the other person good.

How many good men are abandoned and betrayed by their wives?

How many good women are abandoned and betrayed by their husbands?

There is evidence out there that suggests many DON'T know what makes a good man or a good woman.

Finally, being a good man or woman is not sufficient to sustain a marriage.

I don't think triple H meant any offense at all, the thread is for a specific purpose but thats not it.

There are good men and women its a relative thing. We are all flawed..

Two different things. As HHH said, not better or worse, just different. Moreover, the experiences and hardwiring are different.

I would say...

Women know what they like in a good man...

Men know (should know, I suppose, as the other thread is exploring) how to be a good man.

I know quite a few women that fit this description...they do exist LOL.

Ummm...CWMI, why are you offended?

"Good" is subjective and varies from culture to culture. Just like 'good husband' would vary from woman to woman on what their definition is. For example, my wife thinks I'm absolutely a great husband, but some of the things I do would make CWMI feel unloved and not fit her definition of a good husband.

I think some guys don't even know what makes a good man. We konw what we're taught by our fathers/grandfathers/etc. We have terms like honest, integrity, etc. Some women would think a good man supports his family no matter what even if that means working 900 hours a week and some women would say "no way, I feel unloved by him working so much. A good man would be home with his family."

And we all have different ideas of what a man should be able to do. For instance, I had to help a guy and his wife to push a car up a hill. The car was light and he should have been able to push it himself. I think a man should have some amount of physical strength. His battery was dead and he had no idea how to work the battery cables. I think a man should be able to know how to put red and black together and jump a car. I've seen guys that can't change a tire. I think a man should have the physical strength to change a tire and know how to change a tire.

I think the men should be teaching their boys to change tires but many men are not teaching their sons to do this. And that of course is one example. I don't see men teaching their sons a lot of things (like opening hte door for a lady, etc).

Those that flew the plains into the World Trade Towers viewed themselves as good men fulfulling their religious obligations. I wouldn't consider them good at all.

To be fair to CWMI, the post she is quoting is NOT in the Men's thread.

That has nothing to do with the goodness of the person being left. That is all about the lack of integrity in the person leaving because they'd made a commitment not to.

Me, too.

BUT--if you were married to me, wouldn't you take my feelings into consideration when making choices about your activities?

Being physical strong means a man is strong, that has nothing to do with being a good person. Knowing how to maintain a car makes one a responsible car owner, not a 'good person'.

They were evil; evil people never see themselves as evil. No religion promotes murder, not even theirs.

Of course.



This is absolutely true. However, I think strength is good. I think men should have strength. Therefore, a good man showeth strength. Jesus loves strength. Orrrr...a good man is responsible. Being strong is a man's responsibility. Therefore a good man is strong.



Right right. I think it's sensible to agree with this. It's strange how one can justify theirself for being right when they are wrong. I mean, we think it's right to give elderly, short Asian women with bad eyesight the okay to drive at night. You know teh ones that can't see over the steering wheel.

I think it's a mixed bag for what makes a "good" man. I consider myself a good man, but I also know I have my faults and obviously my WXW figured I wasn't good enough.

Some of it is attributes, values, beliefs, conviction, honor, integrity, selflessness, and honesty. It's the right mix and how they sync up with the "good woman" in question. If enough of those ingredients mix right, and the two focus on meeting each others needs, well then I think you got something really special there. Now the trick is finding that!

I just want to thank CWMI for taking this to it's own thread. It's very gracious, and saves other discussions from destructive disruptive debates.

Ok, so I'll post the full rebuttal.


http://artofmanliness.com/2010/12/13/a-generation-of-men-raised-by-women/

The majority of men today have spent their entire lives being told how to "be a man" or to "man up" by women. And somehow, they continue to hear it, and get it wrong. Why?

Because the definition of a "man" or a "good man" as stated by a woman is given with the woman's interest in mind, not that of the man.

It's given in the interest in increasing women's power in the world, and diminishing the male role. And it works. Men have been diminished.


http://artofmanliness.com/2010/01/10/the-decline-of-male-space/

The "blow-back" of gender equality is the continued emasculation of men, and it is occurring nowhere more than in marriage.

And if we object? Misogynist! Chauvinist!

We get put put back "in our place" about this strange fantasy that we get to define ourselves. We get beat down with the worst-possible gender-based stereotypes and behaviors to beat and frighten us back into submission.

And we comply.


http://artofmanliness.com/2010/07/18/stop-living-for-the-approval-of-women/

Yes, dear. Sorry, dear.

We have allowed the "American work ethic" to deteriorate our role in the home, marriage, and family - and then we allowed the rise of women to finish the job in wiping us off the board.

Misandry is not the solution to misogyny, and keeping men "in line" doesn't work.

So, no. I'll no longer allow women to define me as a man. I did it long enough, and after a decade of emasculation and obsolescence, I'll never allow it to happen again.

And you know what? I'll be a better husband, father, and man for doing it.

Mrs. V - the problem is that we fall into a male stereotype on this one - we DON'T know, and many lack the base humility to admit it, or to explore it.

I thank the head of my science department for regular lessons in humility - nothing like being rolled up by a 5'1" 130lb man when you are 6' 250lb.

This, however, is about emotional and intellectual humility. Most often, humility is mistaken for "weakness," and the man-boy prevails.

Yeah, I'm totally not going to make any determinations on the man thing - as alluded to above, I'm leaving that for y'all to suss out on that thread. I definitely agree w/ the premise, and am following along to see what dialogue unfolds.

I will say this....as a woman, I have seen god men who have been squashed, pushed, nitpicked, pecked, whined, accused, and basically beat to a pulp (bad grammar but it makes the point) by the women in their lives who just will NOT SEE anything good in them.

I've seen women do the same.

And it makes me mad when I see it. At some point we need to learn to appreciate and be content....unless we just like being miserable and indignant all the time.

ITA tawanda. I don't agree with disrepecting the person in the process of advocating for change. I don't think it takes pretending to be content to show respect for our fellow man. IRL it makes me so mad to hear a woman with two kids they "I have three - the two kids and my husband." Surely there's a more respectful way to share experiences and brainstorm solutions.