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Looking back, I can see the value of DH and I finding ourselves in a variety of situations. For example, when my DD was very small, DH worked for a pastor for whom family was not a priority, a particularly type A personality. It was hard not feeling like I had support or any time with him....but he did at least have a job with which he could do those little things....like pay bills. I also watched him be unemployed for quite a few months. I had all the "UA time" I wanted.....and I foraged through the couch for change and never got my hair cut and wondered how we would eat after all the profits from the sale of our house was gone. Honestly, I would have gladly given up some of that time for some income.

In both of those situations, my DH was a GOOD MAN. He was gone because he was working hard (work ethic is a character quality) and because he wanted to honor his employer and God. I was frustrated by the lack of time and support left for me and DD, but he was still a good man. When he was unemployed, he helped with the kids, We spent more time together, spent a whole day playing in the snow and laughing and eating snow cream. Yes, I was frustrated that we didn't know what the future held and that he seemed to be unmotivated about hurrying up and finding something. But he was still a good man.

I know both genders need support, but anyone who knows anything about biology, sociology, or who has ever read a marriage book, especially a Christian one, knows that identity and and being a good protector and provider and feeling as if the woman they vlues and respects them is IMPORTANT to a man. many women draw themselves up into to some blind self-righteous stance and say "Well, when he is respectable enough, I'll respect him."

As Dr. Phil would say "How's that workin' for ya?"

DH and I, about a month ago, talked about a lot of things, and he asked me to stop talking about certain things on forums. He made a couple of requests and explained to me how my words - even if they were honest and thought out - made him feel. Right or wrong, whether I had a valid point or not, I was hurting my good man. So I stopped. Because my responsibility to him - the one God gave me that I promised to fulfill - is more important than my "right" to vent and dog him about what I perceive to be imperfections.

And BTW, I ain't perfect either. So probably I use use that energy to be a great wife instead of milking the martyr complex.

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There are base definitions for good, of course. Like.. "Does not beat me" "does not commit adultery" "is honest" and so forth. The entire "integrity" thing mentioned earlier.

But for me, good means other things too, like 'does not drink or smoke'. Al does not smoke, and doesn't drink. So by some of my base criteria he is good, too. He might not be good by some other women's definitions, but by mine he's good.


One year becomes two, two years becomes five, five becomes ten and before you know it, you've wasted your whole life on a problem you can't solve. That's one way to spend your life. -rwinger

I will not spend my life this way.
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Going back to the 'squashing' of men by apparently domineering and hostile women--this runs right back to the integrity I spoke of in my OP. If a person is whole and undiminished IN THEMSELF, nobody can come along and diminish them.

IOW, nobody can emasculate you without your consent.

All the discussion about the topics and issues of 'being good' detract from the essential core 'goodness' that I'm talking about. I like what KT said about being responsible, and that fits with what I'm talking about...there's no set criteria for 'if a man does x, y, and z, he is good.' Competence in different areas, depending on the life situation a man is in (for instance, an Amish man would not need to know about automobiles, and neither would a Manhattanite), accepting responsibility to be competent in the areas that one's lifestyle requires, is a mark of integrity.


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Perhaps, but it does address the thesis, that folks don't recognize good. Because if they did, either they wouldn't choose that person because they really are not good. Or they wouldn't cheat on them because they recognize they are good.

Character matters as well, I'm not taking that away. But I still contend that if one thinks they have a good thing, they don't risk it by trying to get something else that they perceive is a "better" thing.

Folks are still basically rationale, so they cheat because they are trying to fill some need and they perceive their mate is not good enough to fill that need.

The question is, is their perception based in reality, or twisted by filters, prior experiences, expectations and a poor understanding? Or is their spouse really bad?

Originally Posted by CWMI
Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
After all, if someone is good, why would you leave them. If they were good enough to choose, why are they no longer good enough when the wayward spouse walks out?

That has nothing to do with the goodness of the person being left. That is all about the lack of integrity in the person leaving because they'd made a commitment not to.

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Originally Posted by Tawandabelle
And BTW, I ain't perfect either. So probably I use use that energy to be a great wife instead of milking the martyr complex.
Interesting way to put this. Are you saying you have a martyr complex and have just decided not to milk it?

I know several people IRL who wouldn't know how to function in life if they didn't live as martyr because then they'd have to look in the mirror and face some hard truths about themselves. It's so much easier to live in martyrdom but it gets old real quick for others around them.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
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“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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I have been guilty before of having a "martyr complex," when I would do the whole "I do everything and he doesn't care, wah wah wah" thing. There have been times I have had a complex that could hardly be called martyr, since marytyrs are usually seen as people to be admired (Peter, Joan of Arc, etc)....and I definitely was not admired. As a friend of mine says, being crucifed is not necessarily the same thing as being martyred.

I have definitely had my share mirror moments. They are always most effective when I hold up the mirror voluntarily and lovingly rather than having it surreptitiously shoved up my a**, but like I said, I am very aware I am not perfect.....and willing to admit it.

And as far as someone not being emasculated unless they allow it.....perhaps it WAS my DH's choice to allow himself to be hurt when I acted like a snarky little shrew....but me acting like a snarky little entitled shrew didn't help wink


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I think being hurt by someone's bad behavior and feeling EMASCULATED are two totally different things. But I wouldn't know what emasculation feels like. It seems to me that it's giving someone else too much power over your own sense of worth.

For instance, if a wife says to her husband: "You are always forgetting to take out the trash!"

He can choose a few ways to deal with it. Hear it as a valid complaint and address it while also addressing that he'd like to be spoken to respectfully and won't tolerate that crap from her. Or he can slink off and feel emasculated and quietly hate her for 'making him' take out the trash.


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Definitely agree. Both DH and I have been guilty of being overly sensitive about valid complaints. And both of us have been guilty of not choosing our words and tones appropriately. I have to say that I am worse about this than he is. He doesn't go for the low blow, and in the past I have. Now I only do it when I sense certain things. And he doesn't give off those a-hole type of signals anymore because....well, because he's a good man.

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Originally Posted by Enlightened_Ex
Or is their spouse really bad?

The spouse who cheats has a lack of integrity, completely separate from anything about the other spouse at all. There are ways to deal with a "bad" spouse that doesn't undermine one's own integrity.

I know we have people on this thread on both sides of infidelity, so I want to be clear that I find it a huge plus in the integrity department to have made the choices you've made since Dday, whether it was to D the cheater, make amends for your own transgressions, or forgive your spouse and rebuild. Any of those choices show integrity, imho.


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"I know we have people on this thread on both sides of infidelity, so I want to be clear that I find it a huge plus in the integrity department to have made the choices you've made since Dday, whether it was to D the cheater, make amends for your own transgressions, or forgive your spouse and rebuild. Any of those choices show integrity, imho."

This deserves a "like" button

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Originally Posted by CWMI
Going back to the 'squashing' of men by apparently domineering and hostile women--this runs right back to the integrity I spoke of in my OP. If a person is whole and undiminished IN THEMSELF, nobody can come along and diminish them.

Other than the dripping cynicism in this comment, integrity also means that your own actions will not be carried out in such a way that it would diminish another. Accountability means that when you do and you get called out on it, you own up to it.

Originally Posted by CWMI
IOW, nobody can emasculate you without your consent.

Because words never hurt nobody, right? This is extremely short-sighted. If this were actually true, we wouldn't avoid love busters now, would we?

Originally Posted by CWMI
All the discussion about the topics and issues of 'being good' detract from the essential core 'goodness' that I'm talking about. I like what KT said about being responsible, and that fits with what I'm talking about...there's no set criteria for 'if a man does x, y, and z, he is good.' Competence in different areas, depending on the life situation a man is in (for instance, an Amish man would not need to know about automobiles, and neither would a Manhattanite), accepting responsibility to be competent in the areas that one's lifestyle requires, is a mark of integrity.

Hmmm... I find it interesting we keep tossing around integrity as a buzz word, as if it's an argument-ender.

"Well, if you just had INTEGRITY!" *Lightening crashes, the heavens open, sun shines, and a double-rainbow paints the sky*

Quote
1.
adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.
2.
the state of being whole, entire, or undiminished: to preserve the integrity of the empire.
3.
a sound, unimpaired, or perfect condition: the integrity of a ship's hull.

1) This definition is concurrent with the use of the word in the discussion.

2) In this definition, men are failing. We are diminished. We are growing in a world in which definition 1 of integrity causes men to hold to a moral standard of "work ethic" that puts them in traveling jobs, or jobs which they work 60-70 hour work weeks and are losing out on their marriages and families.

3) Men are not sound, not unimpaired. We are impaired by a lack of positive male peers and/or role models. We are impaired by a society in which male space has been diminished, and people think that opposite-sex friendships are "OK."

Additionally, while you may be able to know what a "good man" is, trying to leverage this opinion on your spouse falls right in to the category of Disrespectful Judgements, and may lead to Selfish Demands.

I started the Men's thread because I have the humility to recognize two things; that I myself do not feel like a complete, masculine man, and that there may be other men out there who struggle with the same thing.

In the straight-and-narrow; the female definition of masculinity, or gaining the approval of women for this definition isn't as high as an interest, as we get that often enough without solicitation.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Who is talking about educating their spouse?

This whole thread was a response to your assertion that women IN GENERAL have no clue what it means to be a good man. I didn't bring my argument to your NO GURLZ thread, or disrupt the thread of the poster where you posted this bit of educatin' the wimmins by saying they don't know jack about about what it means to be a good man. Not MASCULINE, as you put it here, but GOOD.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
Who is talking about educating their spouse?

This whole thread was a response to your assertion that women IN GENERAL have no clue what it means to be a good man. I didn't bring my argument to your NO GURLZ thread, or disrupt the thread of the poster where you posted this bit of educatin' the wimmins by saying they don't know jack about about what it means to be a good man. Not MASCULINE, as you put it here, but GOOD.

MrRollieEyes

Thank you for revealing your purpose and the driving force behind your offense.

I appreciate, and stated that appreciation, that it was nice of you to give your cry of foul it's own space.

I also stated that your quote was NOT from the Men's thread.

You'll have to excuse me if I would like men to take back responsibility for themselves, and I dang sure have no interest in "educatin' the wimmins."

You ask a question, you get an answer.

However, don't try to level some veiled call of misogyny at me because you don't like the answer.

Know why? Because it's not about women.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I right there with you on wanting men to take responsibility for themselves. I argue against the notion that it is something to be taken 'back'. Nobody wrestled responsibility from your hands in the first place. You DROPPED it.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
I right there with you on wanting men to take responsibility for themselves. I argue against the notion that it is something to be taken 'back'. Nobody wrestled responsibility from your hands in the first place. You DROPPED it.

Is this a call towards me? (I own that)


Or, is it a generalization, which you mightily took as an offense when you assumed it was pointed towards women?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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You said you would like for men to take 'back' responsibility for themselves. Take back from whom? Was it a typo? Did you mean to simply 'take'?


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And I was speaking of men in general dropping the ball on responsibility to wives and children. It was men who decided that they would be wage earners, and nothing more. Your fathers, grandfathers. Every generation has a choice.


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We're kind of far away from the original intent of the thread, which was to say that it is short-sighted to claim that no woman has a clue what it means to be a good man.


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Originally Posted by CWMI
You said you would like for men to take 'back' responsibility for themselves. Take back from whom? Was it a typo? Did you mean to simply 'take'?

I'd like to see the next line in the rationale here.

I'm thinking that you take offense, because you think that for men to be accountable to men, that something has to be taken from women.

Am I right?


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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No.

Here's your signature line:

�We�re a generation of men raised by women. I�m wondering if another woman is really the answer we need.�

THAT'S what I'm talking about. That is blaming women for male behavior.


Marriage is the triumph of imagination over intelligence. Second marriage is the triumph of hope over experience.
(Oscar Wilde)
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