GU,
I'm limited on time and excuse me for not researching back but I have a couple of questions you don't have to answer here, just consider:
Did you read SAA? Do you know about Plan B and Plan B letter? I don't know if you ever did a real plan A in the past/or plan B either.

Here's why I ask. I think your going to have a hard time extricating yourself from this woman. We all want to see the potential good in people. She will however hurt you again.
So the conditions which she would have to meet for you to consider taking her back: have you thought of them? They can be anything YOU want (not what SHE wants). Make a list. Consider giving her ample time frame to become the person you (and she) want her to be. If she feels any of it is unreasonable, well then I guess it wasn't meant to be. Making sense?
My wexw never came begging. But if she had, I had a very nice little letter ready to print on my computer. I felt better knowing it was there. I know she would have probably never been able to accomplish the objectives, but it would have removed some of the guilt I would have felt by saying "Thanks but no thanks, I'm moving on. Bye."


hope that makes sense.

opt

Agreed, and good on ya that you see it so soon

Bad day today. Just need to vent.

For the past week, my STBXWW has been saying how sorry she is and how she doesn't want to lose me or our marriage. She's been pledging to "get help" for her "problem". She wants me to go to marriage counseling.

I'm trying to be very dark, but we still live in the same house for now and it's hard to not run into her, especially when she's waiting for me.

I'm not interested in restoring our marriage after her four affairs and don't believe she's sincere about getting help.

But it sure did feel nice to hear her say how much she values me and doesn't want to lose me or our friendship.

Then I find out she's still talking to the OM, pledging her love and discussing their plans to be together.

WHY DO I LET HER PLAY ME????

Why am I so gullible?

All those nice feelings about how she might actually see value in me and my faithfulness vanished in a puff of smoke.

I guess she just wants to have as many men on the line as possible and I'm just the first sucker on the string.

I should know not to trust any good feeling that comes from her.

End of vent.

I'm so, so sorry. I think you've figured it out. Remember to come here and vent any time you need to. As long as that helps you to get past it and move on to better things.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, and it's NOT an oncoming train.

Wow. This sounds familiar. I was married for 25 years when I discovered my XH's affair. He certainly did not want a divorce, but then I found further evidence of continued betrayal all as he was saying 'lets work it out.' Sickening. I will never forget the day I was truly 'done'. I nearly fell to my knees thanking God for the Gift of Clarity that brought me to that point.

2 big things to be thankful for in your situation: Your children are all grown and you have an income.

Our only child was barely 9 and I had not worked since he was born. I came out ok finacially, but I hate having to deal with visitation. Be glad you don't have that.

You will be ok. The sooner you get away from her the better.

((Giving Up))
You say you are venting and that's perfectly good. Venting here can help us process what's going on and keep us from doing crazy things that we would rather do to/around/at people that are frustrating us - for you, that would be your ww.

However, you state this:


Does that mean you want input? Because I have a few things to say. I believe there are MB principles and approaches that could be applied to your situation...even though you're done with the marriage. Remember, this is not a "Marriage at all Costs" website. Much of the philosophy and approaches are designed to preserve the dignity and sanity of the betrayed spouse.

I'll elaborate later, if you wish, but respect your wishes if you would rather let it flow for a little while - it takes a long time to process all this stuff and you've only been here less than a month. There is no rush.

Just don't go signing up for any marriage counselling without talking to us first, .

opt

just to share one experience with you because I think it's relevant: I plan B'd my wife with a plan B letter and everything, IM's, the whole deal TWO MONTHS BEFORE THE DIVORCE WAS TO BE FINAL. Why? To preserve my dignity. I basically stated 'I know we are to be officially divorced in two months, but you acting like a tramp is still degrading to me and my children.' Stop seeing OM#2 or go NC with me - your choice.
...she made the right choice and we were able to continue the road to D with some peace.

This is actually a good idea, opt. My STBXWW (wayward yet again) would never understand; at least not while she's in the middle of her teenage rebellion. While I can say that I don't care what she does with her life, it is still upsetting to watch her do this to DS (although, she'd refute any effect on DS), and to me while she still lives in the house which I solely maintain.

GU,
I know it's hard not to view it as "being played", but understand that your emotions and thoughts are normal. You have a long history with this woman, and there is no way you could detach enough yet, to not react. Have you though about IC? I've been thinking about going back into IC. Eventually I have to get over this anger and resentment. I wait for the day when the first question I'm asked is not "Anything happen last night?". LOL.

.
My STBXWw didn't "understand" either. She thought it was all some sort of 'ultimatim.' Plan B is not an ultimatim. It's a person outlining in great detail what they can/can't/will/won't tolerate in their interactions with another human (who can not otherwise simply be ignored).
She also developed a great deal of respect for the that day because it was all done with calm and convicted demeanor.
I had been encouraged for some time to go to Plan B by folks here. It was not an easy step, and I didn't actually go through with it fully , but I did initiate it, and the exercise was extremely helpful.
opt

[/quote].
My STBXWw didn't "understand" either. She thought it was all some sort of 'ultimatim.' Plan B is not an ultimatim. It's a person outlining in great detail what they can/can't/will/won't tolerate in their interactions with another human (who can not otherwise simply be ignored).
[/quote]

Oh my... thank you...it's like a light bulb for me...when I stated boundaries I needed to feel safe in the marriage I was told I was not my FWH mother and "you know I dont do well with ultimatums" So glad I'm not alone in that world. I have felt such guilt for stating what I needed... HA and it was ok and normal for me to do this... HA

okay sorry for the T/J

keeping talking, I'm learning here!

Agreed.



My stbx would let me down so many times over the last few years, that when he did seem to want to work on things, I could never believe him after awhile. I always wanted to believe him. He'd promise me something, then not commit to it. Actions speak louder than words.

You'll feel a lot better sticking to your boundaries, even if it hurts at first.

Sorry for being 'away' for a while -- been working a lot lately and needed some space from everything.

My STBXWW is driving me bonkers.

She's delivering the "I want to save our marriage" bit pretty heavy. By the shovel full.

I just don't believe that she wants to save anything but the security and comfort. Nothing about me, except that I'm the paycheck and father of our adult children. She won't look the harlot if we stay married.

I'm not sleeping in our bed, I don't tell her "I love you", I don't call her just to talk -- things I did everyday before I caught her and her latest OM.

She complains that I treat her like she has a disease. So far I've resisted the urge to say, that's because I don't know if you brought home a disease or not. It would be wrong and mean to say, but it is tempting.

She's asked multiple times what she needs to do to show me she's serious. I told her -- call his wife and apologize and answer any of her questions, look for another job and get counseling for yourself.

I haven't pressed for any of these because Divorce is now the path I'm on and it would take some gigantic effort on her part to turn me around.

She claims it's "impossible" for her to do that since his wife might tell her work and she'd lose her job. Her OM claims his wife already knows and I have some substantiation to that effect so I believe he's being kept on a short leash but his wife might not know who my wife is.

I keep telling her it is not "impossible" but it's that she chooses not to do it which, along with her failure to schedule her first counseling appointment speaks volumes about her willingness to fix the real problems.

Her standard response is to try and rush us back to a state of "normal" -- me in the bed, calling each other, pretending to be a happy couple -- all without addressing the core issues. I stupidly allowed this to happen after her previous affairs but not this time. I can learn new things, too.

Has anyone else's STBXWS (like MyJourney's) come back declaring to fight for the marriage? Did they really mean it or was it just words?

Thanks

GU,

Good to see you're still here. Absences will happen, and are pretty healthy. You really do need to just "take a break" sometimes.

My STBXWW came back twice, with the let's work on it, and "have a restart". Like you said though, I have learned they were all motivated by comfort and security. Not having to deal with the mess that you've made, is a WHOLE lot easier. Unfortunately, since I wanted it so bad, I walked softly and left my big stick at home. This obviously didn't work.

You have laid out some of you're core expectations. Stick to 'em. You're right, we can learn new things too!

I am still waiting for STBXWW to come "crawling", but I think I am now far too gone. The inaction on all fronts, with exception to new boyfriends, has just ruined my desire to carry this out any further. She'd be better off trying to climb Mt. Everest. Now, I still would love nothing more to have a great, happy marriage with her; and to let DS learn how to make that happen. But, as I've stated before...it's a pipe dream.

Sadly, WSs are like spoiled children. They hope they can get away with acting badly if they smile and "play nice" for awhile. And yes, if you let her get away with it three times before now, there's a pattern and she assumes that it will happen that way again.


My WH did not try to save the marriage in any meaningful way.

About 4-5 months after the divorce was filed, he learned that my major health problem had finally been diagnosed and was being treated. He asked if I wanted to get back together. I guess he thought that maybe I was capable of being an acceptable wife if my health improved. He still had no intentions of ending his EA or stopping contact with the OW.

Also, about 8 months after the divorce was filed he again asked me to reconsider. I eventually learned that request was at the instigation of the OW and was what she required of him before she would let their EA turn into a PA. The day I told him no way, he changed his FB status to "In a relationship" referring to the OW.

They openly dated for several months while we were still married, but broke it off before the divorce was final. As of today, they are not even FB friends any more.

Thanks, itsaname -- I got the "restart" message as well. A chance to "start over". I told her it's impossible -- we can't wipe our memories of the past and pretend we're just meeting for the first time.

The other day she walked up to me and hugged me and said, "See, I fit right here." I didn't know what to say. I just stood there and didn't hug her back. Afterward I realized I should have said, "I'm not the one who decided we didn't fit together."

I think her relationship with the OM is dying in the light of exposure which just makes me all the more the safety net.

She admitted to me that she asked him for a copy of the phone bill he said his wife saw that tipped her off about the affair. All he could produce was an Excel spreadsheet that looked like he made it himself. She realized then that he's a liar (which I could have told her a long time ago).

I wouldn't yet characterize her as crawling, but she's pretty close to begging and I'm just not "feeling" it this time. She doesn't understand the cumulative impact four affairs can have on a marriage.

Thanks

Thanks, Kirby.

I do worry that I have facilitated her expectations by my past efforts to save the marriage. She thinks by pretending it's all in the past we can go back to life as we knew it.

Not this time. She doesn't see it that way.

Spoiled is a good characterization. I, however, am as guilty as anyone of spoiling her. Oh well, you reap what you sow.

I don't expect her an her OM to be together much longer -- already trouble in paradise.

The other night I reminded her that she could change jobs if she wanted me to believe she was not seeing her OM. She said, "That wouldn't stop us -- we'd still see each other."

At least she was honest for once.

Thanks again.

Ummmmmm, what exactly is wrong with saying that? Is it a DJ? An AO? I don't think it's mean at all. As long as you don't say it in a mean way, you are just communicating your thoughts and concerns. It's the truth. My guess is you don't care what she has or doesn't have because you have no intention of sleeping with her anyway, but most BS's require their WS to get a disease test prior to any physical activity. It should be one of the conditions mentioned below anyway. Just in case you change your mind, demand proof now that she's disease free; that might give you one small indication of how serious she really is.

That's what I'm talking about. I commend your self-preservation, boundaries, and fairness. You are simply stating that you want to spend the rest of your life with someone who takes responsibility for their actions. There's nothing wrong with that either.

I'm sorry if I missed this above, but did you read SAA, GU?


Your ww sounds like someone used to manipulating men to get what she wants. The real selfish type. I know, I was married to one as well. To answer your question above, no she never came crawling back. It's been a year since the separation and coming up on 10 months since the D. She did "apologize" when prompted, a couple of times. I know she's remorseful about the affair(s) ["embarrassed" is more accurate I believe]. She will NOT however let go of the notion that the "affair was a symptom of a larger problem," I guess the problem that we "weren't meant to be together." Which may be true. However, I believe once you have kids, you "break off a piece and make it fit!" -- that was simply too much work for exWW; she'd rather "follow her heart" - that's Selfish Language for "take the easy way out". I think she spent a grand total of 30 minutes considering earnestly how to repair the marriage, but I have my list of conditions ready if she ever asks for it...
opt

So the roller coaster goes on...

My STBXWW had her first counseling appointment yesterday and called to talk with me about it.

I told her prior to her seeking counseling that I would be willing to speak with her counselor if she thought it would help understand my wife's issues with repeated affairs.

My intention was to have my wife figure out what was causing her to have these repeated affairs with other married men so she wouldn't take this into her next relationship (after our divorce) and have our daughters see her bouncing from one destructive relationship to the next.

She told me that the counselor said the problem was "our" problem and that she's "addicted to love" and the only way to end it was for me to be part of the solution.

Sounds to me like the counselor didn't get the full story or she's more interested in saving the marriage than helping my wife.

So now I feel like I'm subtly being blamed for her affairs -- if I had met her "love addiction" needs, she wouldn't have to get them met elsewhere. Nothing like a little pressure on a person -- meet her love needs or she'll have another affair.

For my wife's part, she's convinced herself that she's going to save the marriage -- she's picking out fabric to redecorate the living room of the house she's not going to be living in.

I've made it clear that divorce is my intention and I don't see the marriage as salvagable given her four affairs.

My STBXWW claims she told the counselor the truth about everything. I just don't know.

The next counseling session is next week where we both get to go -- I'm not looking forward to it anymore as I'm now the bad guy somehow.

Optimism--

Thanks for the reply. I guess I saw it as an AO or at least as mean. She did get an STD workup which came to the house. I thought it was a bill for the UTI she said she was going to the doctor to treat and opened it just to find the results of her screening. I showed it to her, apologized for opening it and explained I thought it was a bill. She said she was getting it to "show to me that she was clean" but if that was the case, she should have told me before she went. I'm pretty sure she didn't expect them to mail it to the house and was planning on getting a phone call like all her other doctors.

I did read SAA -- several times figuring I must have missed somethign the first few times as I repeatedly found myself back in the same situation.

I really like the whole "break off the piece and make it fit" analogy -- something she's not willing to do.

I did make a list of 12 things she could do but after reviewing the list realized they were either things I'd already asked her to do which had no impact on her or were point solutions and ndid not contribute to long term security.

Right now, I don't think there is anything she could do to make me feel like she would not have another affair if she thought she could get away with it.

Which is why I'm divorcing her.

thanks again

Did you commit to a joint counseling session? In my opinion being "willing to talk" to the counselor is not the same thing. If I were you, I would NOT go in there and talk to the therapist WITH your WW.

IMO, most counselors don't do well with two clients in the room. They invariable side with one person, and so the other person is the "bad guy." I think that's one of the reasons marriage counseling doesn't work.

Your WW has lied to the counselor--whether she did it on purpose or because she believes the lies doesn't matter. But she HAS lied because that's what WSs do. If you go in there WITH her and attempt to counter the lies with the truth, the therapist will look at it as a he said-she said kind of thing and will think you're both lying.

When my WH and I were in marital counseling the therapist couldn't figure out who was telling the truth. He finally asked to talk to the children in a separate session so he could get an idea of what was really going on. After talking to the kids, he decided that WH was the problem and asked him to see him individually.

When one person is in the room, a therapist believes that one person. When two people are in the room, the therapist believes the one they like the best. Or the one they already have a relationship with. You are very wise to be uncomfortable going to a joint session with your WW.

Also, your WW may be lying to you about what the therapist told HER. My WXH has told blatant lies about what advice other people give him. He even said that his therapist told him not to see our children. Since no competent therapist would ever say that unless the person was so mentally ill they should be locked up, I'm certain it was a lie.

If I were you, I'd only agree to talk to the therapist without the presence of the WW. I would go in there expecting to tell the therapist background information, and tell her that you hope your wife will keep your children away from the revolving door of men.