Another thought from watching what just happened in my office: Your H may not have anyone supportive in his environment. Where I work there are two men who have what I observe is a good marriage. One guy is the boss, so no one gives him a hard time about it. But the other guy is constantly being teased about not being �the man of the house� because he won�t commit to outings with the guys without spousal approval and a lot of times skips our weekly office lunch because his wife called him at the last minute. As the only female, I think it�s awesome. But I could sooooo totally understand how a man in that kind of environment wouldn�t want to admit to choosing his wife.

I think this is prob. normal. I like to play video games when I have free time (which is very rare). My wife can careless about video games, so I don't talk to her about video games. I might bring up that there's a new system out and that I'd like to look into buying one because of the increased graphics processor blah blah blah. But htat's only to describe why I'd like to make the purchse. I might even find a new game and go "oh man! Come look at teh graphics on this game!" I'll talk to my guy friends though about video games because it's a guy thing typically. As far as manicures and girl stuff, our convesations on that are she'd like to get a manicure or her hair cut....okay, cool. But I don't want to have a conversation about it because I don't really want to talk about 'girl' stuff. Well, aside from "I think your hair might look good like this style"


I think you're on target. I learned long ago that if my wife was adverse to me doing X and Y and I knew that I wouldn't be able to but kept thinking about it and talkinga bout it, I'd only be disappointed later. It's much easier to say, "Sorry...I won't be able to." and then it's done with.


I agree. When you have goals, it's important to surround yourself with people that share like goals or will at least support those goals.

I'm completely sorry about the anniversary issue. That really sucks. I hope your day gets better. Feeling terrible is a horrible feeling.

I do fail to see how being a cheerleader objectifies women.

Daisy, that sucks for that guy. Far more people are married than not married where I work. And those that aren't married completely understand about getting spousal approval before committing to anything. And then they understand that plans may change as family stuff comes up.

Everyone knows if I get asked to do something away from work the first thing I'll say is, "lemme get back to you after I check with my wife to see if that's cool with her."

The vodka models wore more clothing. :p

Remember the whole conversation about how this place doesn't use women at events, and would never ever do such a thing? And spouses are encouraged and welcomed at events? Before I knew about the cheerleaders, I asked H if he planned to extend an invitation to our family for this. It actually involves children.

Yes, cheerleaders at a child's event. Anyhoo...

He said, "Come if you want to, I don't care!"

Nice, eh? DS14 goes to school with a girl whose father works there, and I know she attended last year and told my son how much fun the kids of employees have at this event. So why he hadn't invited us was a mystery to me...until I found out about the cheerleaders. Now it makes sense. He knows I wouldn't like it. It's not a sporting event where cheerleaders are appropriate.

Cheerleaders on a football field = appropriate use of cheerleaders.

Cheerleaders on a car lot = objectifying women.

If there is no team to win, there is no need for cheerleaders, imho. You don't need models to give away free vodka, either, now that I think on it.

Why are you even here, kt? You two sound like you have such an awesome marriage (GNO on drunkbuses excluded). What brought you here? Do I need to look up your first posts?

That is a respect issue, that the boss gets no crap but subordinate does. Do you respect the sub? Do you see how the other guys don't? Do you think kow-towing earns respect? I don't.

I don't know how to answer your other questions from your previous post. I've seen him develop interests based on what other people are interested in, and he even claimed an ethnic heritage I had no clue about and am still unsure of, since nobody else in his family claims this heritage and it's a questionable situation involving a crime that was never reported...anyway, that was nuts and he was angry at me for asking for clarification on what he was saying, since I *thought* at that point I knew his family history, but all of a sudden he was Hispanic because the person we were with was Hispanic. Um, wha??? My head spins. He YELLED at me, "My mother's father was Hispanic!" and I responded, Your mother's maiden name is IRISH. So he told all of us that his grandmother was raped by a Mexican. Was news to me, would have liked to get that in private. I think he would have liked it that way, too. He does tan very well, unlike me, who is Irish and has no raped grandmothers.

Anyway...as far as what he really wants? I kinda think he does want to be unencumbered and free to do as he pleases, at his whim. We are messy, and he is OCD. We interfere with his life. If he was married to a golddigger, he'd be a perfect husband. He told a therapist before MB that he thought his contribution to the family was money, and that's it. What should be EXPECTED as his contribution, that is.

Ahhhh...very enlightening reading KT's first posts...

I had horrible IB going on�throwing twice a week, indoor and outdoor soccer during times that took away from family, martial arts 4-6 hours a week, I barely knew my kids names, I had inappropriate flirty conversations with other women on occasion, never helped around the house (well rarely and that was begrudgingly�I thought mowing the lawn on Saturday was good enough), I would agree to do things I knew my wife wouldn�t like and then lie about it, I had a drinking problem, etc. Basically I was just a huge jerk, a terrible husband, and really not a good dad. And my wife was the queen of AOs and DJs.

My wife and I decided we were going to split up. When I told my son that Dad and Mom were going to be living separately, it tore him up. I mean he broke down fiercely. I had already been divorced (and so had she) and my two daughters from my previous marriage were still (years later) upset that their parents weren�t together. I decided right then that I didn�t want to do any more damage to my kids. So I said, �no we�re not going to get a divorce, we�re going to make this work.� She was hesitant but agreed for the sake of the kids. I can�t remember if our 4 year old had been born yet or she was pregnant with our 4 year old or not at this point. I had no marriage skills. I asked what she needed from me as a husband and we went from there. And it was really rocky but I started doing the things she asked from me. Granted I screwed up a lot but things were getting better. I started googling stuff. I came across The 5 Love Languages first. I took the book to her and said something like, �hey�I want to have an awesome marriage. Can we take this test and try and meet these needs the book talks about?� She agreed and we went from there. Then I found Marriage Builders and we started with the ENs questionnaire. Then we started reading the Love Busters book together as UA time.

Granted we�re not MB poster children. I don�t think Dr. Harley would approve of me playing on a co-ed soccer team. And I don�t think he�d approve of my wife going on the bus with drinking. Occasionally (rarely)we sacrifice and do activities that we really don�t want to do (like me agreeing to going camping). We get in 10-20 hours of UA time together, we meet each others ENs (on a consistent basis anyway�we might have a down week here and there), and we rarely LB each other.

That�s it in a nutshell.

Thanks, kt.

Do you think your wife's AOs and DJs were directly related to your IB?

I'd say that my IB sure didn't help. I'm sure she didn't feel very loved. It wasn't until fairly recently that I got her into a psychitarist and it was discovered that she has bipolar with an anxiety disorder. Medication has helped tremendously.

The other thing is she grew up with a mom that was all about AOs and DJs. The husband was simply a paycheck and if he did something the mom didn't like, it wouldn't be uncommon for verbal or physical abuse to occur. And husbands were disposable.

The husband worked and the mom sat around drinking and doing drugs all day and night. The birth dad would (when they lived with him) allow for the daughters to have boys spend the night, buy them cigarettes, and supply them with drugs and alcohol. There were times they got pawned off on the grandparents.

One of my biggest changes I made on my self was to really make an effort to meet her need for FC and DS. It's made a world of difference.

kt, to this post: do you think your wife could have known you for years without knowing you had an interest in video games at all?

Because that's what I'm talking about. Not just not having conversations about it, but being completely unaware that it was an interest, after several years of marriage and ALL the children were born.

To me, being completely unaware is different from not discussing every new development in the hobby.

No. I've always owned a gaming system. I don't play very often--like I might get on there for a couple hours a month if that. But she does know I like to play video games on occassion.

Now with throwing, I had always had an interest in it but had no idea where to even start with it. So I never really said anything about it until I met (whose now my best friend and throwing coach) my buddy J. When I started, we didn't POJA it, I think I said sojmething like "Hey! I met a guy that throws in the Highland Games, I want to start practicing wtih him so I can compete." She said okay. I think she thought it was kinda weird at first.

But J's family would come out to the park with him when he threw so I kinda threw at her, "hey, bring the kids to the park when we throw, his wife and kids come." She liked this. And then she started going to the Games with me and she realized that most of the guys that throw are married andd have kids and they all travel together. So she really likes it now as it's a family environment. And a lot of the times the wives and kids will all go do somethign together while the husbands are competing.

Ha! My husband has the answer to our problems. For me to GET A JOB. That's so nice, that he's willing to pay $1800 a month for childcare and take days off work if the children are ill and can't go. Oh wait, he means for ME to do that! hahahaha...

He can pay ME $1800 a month in child support. Azz.

How can I encourage him to not be so reactionary with anger? I know I'm way more sarcastic here while venting than I am in my dealings with my H. I don't know how to convince you all of that, but i am much more measured and reserved when talking with H, and I do take into account his need for admiration. But yeah, I'll use it against him. "Thank you for your support in my pursuance of a career. I'm so happy to know I can depend on you to be there for the kids when I can't." I'm actually serious in the sentiment, but majorly doubtful about his commitment.

I told him earlier that I was having a tough time dealing with him canceling our anniversary weekend away. He DENIED having done so. Really? There's a touch with reality that's missing, imho.

If you can't talk respectfully about him, then I doubt very seriously you are talking respectfully to him.

You may think you are being "reserved," but more than likely your true feelings are shining through.

I love this. The first overnight business trip H took, I wanted to go. He said that people don't take spouses on these things. I knew better, having been married before to a business traveler. So I said, "Go. See." Sure enough, every married person had brought their spouse. He promised to take me on the next one, that he hadn't known. (ummm...I told him, but I get NO RESPECT as a knowledgeable person apparently)

But no, next one not only did he not arrange to take me, but lied to me in order to get an extra day there. I found out beforehand. I had three days of HELL, followed by YEARS of hell after finding out that a woman he worked with was there, also.

I can't go back and find out what happened. He passed a polygraph after that. But I think he believes his own BS. So of course he would pass. I just don't know. I love every part of my life right now except for who I am married to.

CWMI, the more I read about your husband, the more I agree with whoever suggested Asperger's awhile back. One key of AS is "special interests" that for a time period become all consuming. For some, it�s a lifetime love. For others, it develops when around others who highlight that interest. I know you�ve tossed out NPD as well. Neither of those mean he can't adjust his behavior to be less hurtful, however...it just makes it harder to find a way to motivate him to do so.

I think I fit Asperger's much more than my H does. I am much more likely to blurt out inappropriate comments than he is, and more likely to misread social cues...because I'm an introvert. I don't notice and/or don't care about reactions I get. I don't temper my response to anything based on expected reaction. I say what I mean, mean what I say.

H tempers and solicits certain responses. At least with those not close to him.

He canceled our anniversary weekend and will be spending it with cheerleaders instead of with me, and told me I could 'show up if I want to.' Eff him, prisca. I don't need your support on that, I can be highly po'd on my own.

But don't you DARE tell me that this is my fault, or try to buttercream it. This is outright disrespect, and I have every right to be outraged. And po'd, and I will refrain from setting anything on fire, unless I want to ogle firemen.

My house is a mess. I am comfortable with that. My H will NOT BE. I am trying to care, and failing. I don't care about his comfort.