I am not speaking to this couple directly, but it raises another lesson:

Be sure about who you are marrying and why you are marrying them.

* Not because you are both nice people, so why not?

* Not because everyone else is getting married and you feel like time is running out.

* Not because they are so good looking and such a prize.

* Not because you are on the rebound from a relationship.

* Not because you are lost and confused and this looks like a way out.

* Not because you said, "Yes", and now want to show commitment by not backing out.

Marry because you find someone who shares your values, who understands you, listens to you, cares about you and wants to care for you. Marry them for purely positive reasons, without any doubt, misgivings, or remorse.

Wow, Retread. That�s so needed these days. I wonder if the problem is that few of us have hope that the conditions in your last paragraph will ever be met, that we�ll �find someone who shares your values, who understands you, listens to you, cares about you and wants to care for you. � so we take what we can get. I remember very poignantly reluctantly letting my mom talk me into marrying my ex because he was the only guy in college who was interested in dating me. You don�t want to end up old and alone she said. But look what happened 12 years later.

This weekend I've been thinking about attraction and what causes it. The super hot guy I've been getting to know has a lot of habits i don't want to live with. Yet I can't get my mind off him, unless it's to think about the church guy, lol, who would seems he would be pleasant to live with but who I don't think will ever settle down.

I've been asking myself, what is it about Guy#1 that makes me feel head-over-heels for him even though he has certain habits I don't want in my house. We're not talking anything abusive here, but for example, he smokes and I am sensitive to smoke so I can't handle staying at his place too long unless it's been freshly cleaned. In the past, if a man who smoked approached me, I wouldn't have given him the time of day. In this case, I didn't know he smoked until we'd been going out for a couple months. And what is it about Guy #2 (the church guy) who isn't nearly as hot but is such a fantastic guy that I find him just as sexy.

I know part of it is my own personal healing (prayer, counseling). And yesterday two more pieces of the puzzle fell into place: I feel very feminine with them. I also feel safe and protected, like either of them would take good care of me.

Now feeling feminine around him is just body shape and genetics, but it makes SUCH a difference! I'm *in* great shape I (run races), and I *have* a great shape (hourglass figure), but it's a broad shape. People are usually suprised when they see me in person if all they've seen is pictures, because you typically don't find someone with my figure being my size. I rarely feel feminine around guys because my shoulders are typically broader than theirs. The kids in high-school used to tease me about being a football player. But this guy is so broad and tall that just being around him I feel feminine and petite. When I sit next to me, he's taller and I can look up into his eyes. His legs are longer and wider than mine. Do you know how hard it is to feel sexy when the guy you're hugging feels like a little kid? It's not their fault most guys are thinner than me. It's genetics. But it's only part of the libido issue.

But the next part, feeling protected, can help a lot of guys on this board.

Guy #1 is a big dude, 6'4", and no one ever messes with him. And they don't mess with me when I'm around him. When they say something he knows hurts me, such as making fun of the Lord, he makes them stop. Now, he doesn't do that with every single thing that annoys me (and I don't expect him to) but I really appreciate how he does that when it gets to the most sensitive things in my life. I've been out with guys who didn't stand up for me when the waitress/waiter makes fun of my drink selection (I don't drink, and I don't understand why servers think they have to crack a joke about you not drinking? What, are you the driver? well, actually yes I am. What? Why do you want cranberry juice? Do you have a UTI or something?). The last time me and this guy were out, his friend's girl made fun of miss goody-two shoes ordering a coke rather than real drink, and he put her in her place. I've never had that before. Even my own parents didn't stand up for us. As an example, some kids were beating us up and my dad, rather than helping us, decided he was going to play with the kids who were beating us because, as he said that day, they're better than you because you're letting them beat you up. My mom regularly went out drinking with the "mean girls" in school who were always making fun of me and trying to cheat off my papers. So here is this guy, who is a lot of fun to be around, looks good, and by his very nature meets one of the deepest needs I didn't even realize I had. And it makes me crazy for him. Even though I doubt it would work (I just couldn't marry a smoker, I get sick).

Now Guy#2 is financially secure, a ton of fun, and his personality is much like mine. Even though he teases me a lot, he's the first one to stand up for me if I get lost in conversation and someone tries to cut me down. He's very confident, which plays into the feeling of protection, and he's the kind of guy that will make sure your order is right in the restaurant and have the waitress smiling as he does so (as opposed to the kind of guy that wants you to just eat what was brought rather than risk making a scene or, just as bad, the guy who will fix it but make everyone upset in the process).

But there's something that does bother me about him, and it really speaks to that core issue of protection. One thing that disturbs me about Guy#2 is that he tends to want to make everyone happy. My ex was like that. He wanted to make everyone happy and keep everyone liking him but because he couldn't do that 100% of the time, he'd use me as a sacrificial lamb. He often ignored my needs (because he already had me, it wasn't important to make me happy, I was bound to him for life- he told me this) and would tell people "yes" and then, behind closed doors, tell me not to let whatever he had just promised happen. That's probably why he is still very successful in ministry- everyone just likes his public persona. I guess that doesn't make sense, so here's an example: After birth of my son, while I was on home-rest, the ladies from church wanted to come help me clean. He told them sure, come on over this weekend. Then came home to tell me don't you let those women inside this house. I got angry but his rationale was that his reputation was too important. So to the outside world he looked like a great guy and I looked like a mean shrew. I know some of you are thinking, why did you let him do that? but I took that "wives obey your husbands" thing too far, and even though I hated it, I never would tell people the truth.

So as I'm getting to know church guy, I'm looking for indicators that he will be the same way as my ex. I dont' think so, because he doesn't seem to care what other people think of him like my ex does, but still: If I ever remarry, it will have to be someone who I can depend on being right by my side, sticking up for me, and taking care of me. Not just turning a blind eye as other people do me wrong. And yeah, I know sometimes we read too much into things and we think people are slighting us when they aren't but I'm talking on big issues.

I'm hoping that some of the guys on here who are upset about their wives low libido will consider my words and search out whether there's some deeper need (whether it's protection or something else) they can meet for their wife that, once they do so, will help increase her libido.

Good evening everyone!

Daisy, good luck with those two guys, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes though.

I've come to the conclusion that physical attractiveness is one of my husbands most important emotional needs. I have a few of the MB books and I asked him to fill out the EN questionaire but he listed O&H as #1. I'm not sure that's right.

It took 3 years of dating, a year and a half of marriage, an affair and almost a year of marriage counseling for him to admit that physical attractiveness was important to him. He is attracted to thin petite women with toned stomachs and small breasts. He likes the low jeans and short tanks that only go down to cover the ribs with no bra underneath.

I come from a family that tends to be on the heavy side. We all gain around our middles. I'm kind of short at 5'3" and since high school I'd been around 125lb, still was when I met my H. I've been down to 115lb when I was starting college living on a bottle of Mountain Dew all day until I'd go to my sisters for dinner. (I don't recommend it.)

I enjoy recreational exercise, biking or hiking with friends or my furbaby (puppy). I'm trying to get more activity in my days but it's hard. When I limit my diet I'm always hungry and I feel resentful that H can binge junk food. I think Dr. Harley said that's my lot in life, to be hungry, which is extremely hard to accept.

I resent H a little for not admitting this EN to himself much earlier. I knew his "type" but not that it was so important to him. After all, I wasn't that type when we met or married.

So, how do I keep those negative feelings at bay?

This has become a major love buster for him. Last night H actually rejected me, freshly washed, shaved, and presented. It wasn't fun at all.

Thoughts? Comments? Advice?

PUZZLE

Puzzle, I wish I knew what to tell you. It seems unreasonable to me that your H would hold you to a standard you didn't carry while dating. It almost seems like he's making excuses for dishonorable behavior. Or trying to set you up for emotional abuse. but that's probably me over-reacting. My ex used to tell me how fat I was and how ugly my clothes were. Weird thing was, after the divorce, since we attended the same church for awhile, I purposely wore the clothes he told me made me look the fattest and ugliest. One day he came up to me after service mad at me for wearing all those clothes that looked good and what was I trying to do to him, distracting him from the ministry like that. So I wasn�t really fat and ugly. He just wanted to make me feel that way. Sigh. I hope someone here has some good suggestions for you.

In my case, I married someone I wasn�t attracted to, but I never held it against him that he wasn�t more attractive. I did take issue with the fact that he stopped working out and lost a lot of weight, and would remind him of that when he would make comments about my being too big.

Puzzle, just because he is attracted to a certain look does not mean he can't fall in love in with you. He was in love with you at one time, after all. I would start up a new thread so others can help you with this.

ITA with the first part of this� I�m probably the least qualified to comment on this given my �attraction history� but even without sexual attraction I�ve always liked a particular �look.� Big Dude has that look. The guy I liked before him was blonde, which is my least favorite �look.� But something about the way he treated me totally won me over. The guy I dated between these two had my favorite look, but he was a real jerk so definitely no feelings there.

But what if a guy marries a woman for reasons other than love? Probably does not apply in Puzzle�s case, but there was a lady on here whose husband married her as a caretaker for his kids. My ex is now looking for a wife, and he gave me the list of qualifications. Seemed to me that love had nothing to do with it. My impression of the list is he was looking for someone to play a particular role alongside his ministry.

If you marry someone who doesn�t love you, isn�t attracted to you and you feel religiously bound to remain in the marriage, how can you fix it?

This was posted to me on another thread:


What I wouldn't give to be "normal." I'm really tired of being so odd. I go in these circles where I think I'm finally healed enough to live life like everyone else appears to. I go along fine for weeks, months at a time. Then something happens to make me realize I'm still the same mess with still the same messed-up thinking.

I won't give up, but these setbacks are tough.

Daisy,

I have come to believe that "normal" is a setting on a washing machine.

For years I bounced between extremes: egoism/inferiority complex, uncaring/sensitive, high and low. I could never achieve a sense of balance in my life and in my head.

Through nearly twenty years of A.A. meetings, working the Steps, having and being a sponsor, I have come to realize that no one is truly "normal" in any sense of the word as I understand it. Thus, I have worked for many years to achieve the status of "ordinary."

The most exceptional man I know is my 83 year-old sponsor, who this year will recognize 51 years of continuous sobriety! One of the reasons I find him so exceptional is because he is the most "ordinary" man I know.

Everyone has quirks, character defects, flaws and problems. What's "normal" is that each of us is different in so many ways, but alike in that we have these less-than-perfect qualities.

Learning to accept our imperfections and be "comfortable in our own skin" is a major step on the road to "ordinary."

At least that's been my experience.

Thanks, Fred, for the kind words. I guess I was just really pinging last week because I still have a hard time when people try to tell me, as they did here on the forum, that I�m lying about what I felt or did not feel growing up. I really need to learn how to let such things go and just accept that some people don�t understand. You are right, we all have things we struggle with, but somehow if your struggles are slightly different from others, that makes you some kind of lying weirdo.

I�m feeling even worse about myself today because I tried to get a little (just a little, lol) intimate with Big Dude and it went horribly.

Background: I found out one of my girlfriends really, really, liked Church Guy (causing me to back off getting to know him) and since Big Dude (who I�ve been getting to know for 6 months) wanted to take our relationship to the next level, and I wasn�t interested in anyone else, I decided, �I like him, he�s hot, so why not go exclusive?�

Well�

I had flashbacks to my ex telling me he didn�t want to take time out for me which totally killed the moment. And when Big Dude tried to encourage me to let it go and relax, he also asked �When was the last time you had this much fun with a guy.� Well, guess what? �Never� was the honest answer, but not the right one. He totally backed up, wanted more details, and after hearing them concluded I was some sort of freak weirdo.

I should have known better! I�ve actually had a guy tell me I�m a weirdo because I waited for marriage and was only with one guy within the confines of that marriage. So I should have KNOWN this guy wouldn�t truly honest answers about my sexual past. Why did I tell him? I felt comfortable with him and trusted him, and thought he would be patient with me. After all, it�s been 5-6 months! But I was wrong.

I realize my thread is kinda annoying for some folks, but I'd like to get some opinions on what I should have told the guy in my previous post- what would have been the "honest enough" answer that might not have scared him off?

There's someone in the "other topics" thread who is transgendered...his/her situation makes me wonder: when it comes to sexuality outside the norm, how honest do you be and when?

There is no one perfect line that will inform but not scare off every guy. Just like there is no perfect way for a guy to say "I dumped my ex-wife because she wouldn't have enough sex with me". Some people are going to be put off by the concept no matter how you say it. Some are going to challenge whether it is true.

If you scare a guy off, that just means you didn't waste any more time with the wrong guy. The right guy won't be scared off.

Daisy

I'm that transgendered person.

There is no 'normal'. People fall into many places on many spectrums. Worldly, self actualized people know this. But most people we meet, struggling with fear and self esteem issues, will not move from their version of 'normal'.

Dishonesty makes love very difficult. If someone is not interested in you, they would not have made a good mate.

On the first date I want them to know me as a person. So being in a place where talking is easy, is important. I tell them my background at the beginning of the second date. I have no expectations about the outcome of telling them. I don't let myself fantasize about the future potentials until after the second date.

Sex is a major EN for guys. I thought about sex at every opportunity when I was a guy. But I have less testosterone in my system now than most women. I rarely think about it, unless I meet a really attractive guy. For me now sex is a way to express and enhance love.

So I'm wondering, could asexuality be caused by a hormonal imbalance? I've heard some women take a small amount of Viagra before sex. Others try a testosterone patch. Women's bodies do make a small amount of testosterone naturally.

Daisy, I think if you're deadset in waiting until you get married again to have sex, you'll want to give a heads up to a guy that you're getting serious in your dating life. Some guys will wait; some guys won't want to wait.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

TG isn't "abnormal."

AS isn't "abnormal."

Both of those things actually have measurable physiological causes.

"Uncommon."

People and your people terms.

If I'm understanding right, the issue is that he told you you were not normal for not having relations with anyone until your husband?

If it were me, my response would be: "I can do better than you."

(Prisca is standing here suggesting another more pointed response, but I don't want to get moderated, so I'll leave it to your imagination. )

Seriously, dating is an employment interview for a relationship. Anyone who is disrespectfully judging you like that during the dating stage has FAILED the test!

You can indeed do better and I encourage you not to settle for someone like that.

HHH,

Yes you are absolutely right. 'Normal' is a loaded word, that actually has no true meaning. My point was that no one has the right to define anyone else. We are all God's children doing the best that we can.

I don't consider myself to be much different from other women. Except, I got there later in life.

Well, Big Dude propbed deeper into what was bothering me, and it came out that I'd never had an orgasm. That's what HE was saying I was abnormal for. And if you look at my age group (almost 40) yeah, I guess it is "abnormal."

What two other guys told me was that I was a weirdo for having waited for marrige and only had sex within the confines of that marriage, even though I'm now divorced.

Which to me is a very, very sad reflection on society.


I felt that way for awhile. Back when I thought �the right guy� would appreciate my chastity. Now I�m beginning to realize that it�s the sexy girls who get guys and since I don�t want a man enough to dress extremely revealing or have sex by the third date I�m just going to have to accept being single. I get lots of male attention, since I do dress very figure flattering and even though I�m a size 16 I have a great hourglass figure. But I�m not �sexy� and not really interested in being sexy in public. I kinda feel that is reserved for inside the house ;-)

Daisy,

I am model and a few years ago my husband wanted me to dress very revealing out in public. I felt that my sexy dress should be reserved only for my husband. Now he agrees with me. Wait for a man that shares your view.

I applaud your chastity... Stick to your guns.

I see. I would still say that was a pretty disrespectful thing of him to say. And if he's DJ'ing this early in the relationship, when he's dating and ought to be putting his best foot forward ... I still tend toward suggesting the "throw him back and go fish for another one" response.

The idea of judging a woman because she hasn't experienced orgasm is one of the most disrespectful things I've ever heard, come to think of it. It really doesn't take a whole lot of reading to learn what an emotional thing that can be and what a complicated issue it can be.


Agree.


That sounds tough. It makes me sick to think that most men are that way. But I would strongly encourage you to keep looking. I know there are guys out there who feel that way, because I feel that way.

By the way, a woman can dress attractively without being slutty. And Prisca and I agree with you that dressing sexy is something to do AT HOME.