I'm sorry to hear this happened to you. I also had a spouse who cheated on me for 6-8 years with someone who was often at our house and pretended to be my friend. I understand your feeling of terrible betrayal and deception from both of them. And your feeling of being duped. I often think "how could I have been so stupid and blind?" and how could they have been so clever to have fooled me? There's one feeling I don't share with you - that's jealousy - about the great sex they had. I did at first, but somewhere I read or heard an analogy that changed my mind. It compared what they had to the yacht, fancy house, vacations and cars owned by a mobster who gained them all through killing and stealing . I'm not jealous of those things, and I'm not jealous of the sex or anything else my H had with his AP, because they sold their souls to get it.

Hello MikeSmile,


I think you have been getting some very good advice from CV and Grace. I thouhgt I would ask a few questions and make a few suggestions if you don't mind.

First question do you really believe she did this for half of your marriage (7 years) and did it only for the money? I don't. I don't think you married a whore. I think she got a lot out of it and as you said you were cut out of the marriage in many ways.

Second question, if you are going to spend at least another 9 years with her wouldn't it be better if they were good years, not years filled with conflict, anger, pain?

Third question, what are you going to do with the mother of your children? she has treated you very poorly, but your children deserve a mother who can be a good mother to them and she cannot be nor will she be IF she is a second class citizen. How are you going to reabilitate this woman? What is your plan to bring her back to being a woman that is worthy of your children? It really doesn't matter if you stay or leave, they need their mother reabilitated and you can do that.

MS, I have been here 12 years now. Reading since Feb 99 and registered since Aug 99. I have never seen a BS (betrayed spouse) that did not ride the rollercoaster just as you are. It is normal. Having said this my next admonition to you is CRUCIAL. Don't speak, don't write, don't text, don't twitter, don't email, don't do NOTHING, until you have thought about it for about two hours. Write it down, let it sit, and then ask yourself "What does this accomplish and will it accomplish what I want and need it to accomplish?"


Your marriage may make it and it may not, but you don't need to torch yourself, your W or your family as you ride the rollercoaster. Your W is on one as well, so be aware that she will have good days and bad days.

I'll be very honest with you, I don't believe she did it for the money. I think there was something between them. I mean she did not get paid to have them over for dinner but she did for years. I am not sure I could or would remain in a marriage where an affair went on for 7 years. But whether I could or would is NOT the issue here. The issue is you are here and you are seeking help and the help you are going to get is going to be directed at saving your marriage if that is possible.

I will tell you that both you and your W even in divorce will be happier if you both try your best to save this marriage before divorcing. I am not recommending divorce, but to avoid it YOU have to allow time and have patience both with yourself and your wife. You need time to heal, you learn, to grow and to see things in a different perspective. Your W will need the same.

In the long run perspective is the key. If you both change yours there is hope for a good marriage and one where there is balance between the two of you. She MUST become your partner in social situation and in the bed. She cannot be your slave, your indentured servant, the hired help. She MUST return to being your W. It will take time for her to do this and it will take time for you to learn how to do this, but it can be done and the tools are here.

I know you are angry, hurt, embarrassed, and frustrated, but through all of that you must live your life with CLASS. You must show her and your children how to handle things respectfully even if you are so hurt you can barely get off of your knees you are in so much pain.

I will tell you this if you do these things no matter how it turns out, you will know you did your best, you will know that you gave it your best shot, and you will know that you did it with integrity and honor.

You have an OPPORTUNITY to show those you love what kind of man you are, the decision as to what kind of man you are is yours...no one elses.

You face a huge challenge, go for it.

God Bless,

JL

Please read once more:

I'll be very honest with you, I don't believe she did it for the money. I think there was something between them. I mean she did not get paid to have them over for dinner but she did for years. I am not sure I could or would remain in a marriage where an affair went on for 7 years. But whether I could or would is NOT the issue here. The issue is you are here and you are seeking help and the help you are going to get is going to be directed at saving your marriage if that is possible

JL--Thanks for the thoughts. All good stuff and will be reread a couple of times to digest.

Im very sure there was genuine affection and boyfriend/girlfriend moments in the beginning. I cannot dispute that. But, in the end, he had to pay her as his assistant so money was always exchanged every week. So whatever love or other word that described what they had for the first number of years was based on her being paid to come back. Am I cherry coating a pile of poop? Maybe. But, its clear to me that when this came out and she was free she was a new person. She regrets the fallout, but says being trapped in that situation however lame it sounds to you and me was killing her inside.

We are getting help and we will figure out if this is salvagable.

As for selling their souls, I can agree with this. Im furious with him for treating my wife this way. As his masterbatory device. Because most johns in the end, I think, have little respect for their prositutes. And he knew very well for year after year this is all she was. And, he came to my house for Sun dinner to complete the domination of us all. It was really a mindgame for himself to play for himself. I think my wife was numb to most of it while trapped in her self imposed, unlocked sex prison.

I'll tell you something that concerns me about your posts, Mike. You sound like you are establishing your WW as a victim. She most assuredly was not. Am I not reading you correctly? She was in a 'sex prison' and she held the key to unlock the cell door. She didn't use it because she didn't want to! I am concerned that your healing will be anemic if your wayward does not accept and acknowledge what SHE chose to do to you by choosing to engage in a affair with another man. And you need to accept that your wayward wife was capable of such a choice.

She is no victim, Sir.

And of course she's a different person now! That is a common trait in defogging waywards.

Thanks, MB. Of course this is a topic I had with the psychologis this morning. Yes. I am letting my wife off the hook in some respects but I cant punish her too severe or my kids face issues. Because she chose to almost destroy them, I have to choose to save them from permanent harm she caused. By leaving am I doing my self justice if I add to the permanent mental harm we almost let happen to them?

I know she didnt want to leave the situation at any unbearable point. I can only take her word that is was something she felt trapped in. By what? Dunno. Not love. Not any fanstastic sex she was getting. Her pyschologist has work to do. They can start with self esteem and self worth issues.

MS - There are many reasons for wanting to know the truth about the details of the affair and you have every right to have your wife provide you with that info. I'm attaching a notable post from Pepper called Joseph's Letter. It may help to explain why you feel you need to know, and more importantly, why she should tell you.

This is a classic letter ... applicable when your adulterous spouse is not willing to disclose the details of the affair ... but wants to recover the marriage ...

Here ya go!

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)
_________________________

I hope this letter has provided you with some insight. Also, someone mentioned early on that a screening for STD's would be a smart move. Have you taken their advice?? It was also suggested that a DNA test may not be a bad idea either. Do you harbor any doubts to the paternity of your children?? If so, a DNA test may be the only opportunity you have to put those fears to rest.

God's Blessings for Recovery.

Mike, are you interested in recovery? If you are, you will have to make a decision as to how you reference your wife. You are gonna have to make an effort (and it can be really hard at times) to not call her a sl^t, whore, bee-yotch, or whatever... You are going to have to work on more positive ways to address things, beginning with determining how you are referring to her now, and how she was in the past.


Honestly, this can be hard. you will want to treat her like she was, only she may not be that way now.

CV

Actually, you shouldn't be punishing her at all. She will punish herself enough for the both of you when she de-fogs...

Expecting your W to take 100% responsibility for her affair doesn't have anything to do with punishing her. It is necessary for your recovery.

Like some of the other posters, MS, I have some real concerns with your WW blaming some of her actions on $$, etc.

The best advice I can give you is to get a call into the coaching center (link at top of the page). We have worked with Steve Harley and he is REALLY good, much better than regular marriage counseling. I would do that over the psychologist. Sorry you are here, Mike...

This is what Dr Harley says about this, Mike:
Here


Does the psychologist you are working with focus on childhood issues, etc? Because Dr Harley is pretty strong in his stance that this is not helpful especially when trying to rebuild a marriage. Here is what he says:

(credit goes to Melody, this is copied from one of her posts)


here

here

here

MS,

You said Mike, here is what we are trying to tell you. Seeing the situation for its reality rather than from the point of view of revisionist history as supplied by the WS is going to help save your marriage.

You don't understand, you seeing the reality, her finally admitting that she was not "trapped" she wanted to stay there is going to help both of you. Why? Honesty my friend. For you to recover this marriage for her to do her part to recover this marriage HONESTY is required. Not just from her to you, or you to her, but for both of you to be honest with yourselves.

I don't get the feeling that either of you are honest with yourselves right now.

Let's get one thing straight. No one is advocating that you punish your W in any way. What we are advocating is that you must not delude yourself as to the seriousness of her 7 year affair and that clearly she wanted it to continue for years. She must not delude herself (although it makes a good excuse or herself) as to why this affair occured. She made choices and she continued to make choices that have seriously damaged herself, you, your marriage and your children. Until she really faces this, there is little hope that her perspective can really change on this. More importantly this story she has told will eat at you in the coming months and years. Yes we are talking years here.

You have faced that she had an affair with another man that was very intimate and lasted 1/2 of your marriage. What you have to also face is that she chose it for reasons you don't yet understand. She has to face this as well.



Then and only then can you build a marriage that you both have confidence in, security in, and most of all love each other in. Notice all of the dangling particpals (sp) in that sentence? They dangle just as you will until honest with yourselves occurs. You don't have to cover for her, you don't have to punish her, but you do know have to know what you are forgiving and you and your W need to know what weakness in her boundaries you have to address.

You are doing fine, but the coaster will go up and down for quite awhile yet. Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

Mike, it isn't a matter of "punishing" your WW. It is a matter of affair-proofing your marriage. If you think we're suggesting that you do anything in order to punish your WW you are reading our posts incorrectly. You need to use the tools here to affair-proof your marriage and build it into a passionate relationship that would end her wandering eye.

Her psychologist doesn't have squat to do. This has nothing to do with self-esteem, Mike. Far from it - your WW thinks plenty of herself. She thought she deserved the attention of two men! She thought she deserved to run your marriage and family off the road while she pursued whatever she wanted! That is not a lack of self-esteem or self-worth, friend. Far from it.

This whole damn thing is making me crazy. I understand the magnitude of what she did. I understand the implications if I dont fully understand what she did and that SHE understand the implications. As each of us on this blog have differing specifics in our stories, I am trying to balance some of even handed suggestions from some and some of the absolute disbelief some have with my wife. And, Im at a loss here as I was the dupe for too many years so everytime I see my wife remorseful and shaking and just hoping this would go away, I read some post where I should simply pack my stuff and run. Our situation reads, I see from afar, that my wife had this romantic seven year worldwind romance with passionate, I LOVE YOUS on the beach. And, Im sorry I dont see it that way. I see a woman with some of the worst self worth issues falling for a guy who made her feel good and gave her what she needed. She is not that good a of a liar, which, when you are done laughing, I hope you take my word for. I have started going thru the material on these pages that the Dr. provided. And we'll see what else I learn about past. I will accept being called naive, a dupe, and someone bound for another fall. But, Im not seeing it that way yet.

Of course it is making you feel crazy. That's what being betrayed by a spouse will do to you. Make you filled with emotions. Filled with doubt and filled with despair.

Again. The revelation of the affair is new to you.

You are trying to make sense of how the woman you love didn't have sex with you but another man for seven years.

You are trying to justify why.

Buy the book Surviving An Affair and read it.
Read His Needs Her Needs
Read Love Busters

It will explain it all and help you to formulate how, why, and what to do.

If you don't like reading, you WILL be riveted by these books. They will speak to you of your experience like no others.

Then you can begin to heal from the betrayel.

Thanks. Will get the books.

Self esteem and other background issues are irrelevant. As I gave you in one of the above quotes, Dr Harley says we are all wired for affairs. That's why we must have protections in place to avoid letting other people meet our ENs. Like many others, your W's A probably started with intimate conversation.

If your W doesn't acknowledge it was weak boundaries that led to her affair, then she is less likely to implement and follow Extraordinary Precautions to avoid the OM (NC) and also to prevent another affair.


She had a Secret Second Life for 7 years, Mike. It doesn't matter what we think. Facts speak for themselves. All waywards are dishonest, especially with themselves. It doesn't mean she can't change. Acknowledgement of a problem is a good first step...




No one is calling you naive but waywards follow very similar patterns ~ and the common mistake BSs make is thinking their situation is "different" or "special". My immediate concern is that NC will be broken if you don't recognize an affair for what it is ~ an addiction. Learn about the MB recovery plan and follow it to the letter, it's really your best bet.

Hang in there.

Mike,

I liked what SuzieQ said to you pay attention.

Heck Mike if this stuff is only "making you crazy" you are in good shape. You are not crazy, you are just where you are supposed to be at this point. Let me reiterate some points sQ just made. You said You will never fully understand all of this as you were not part of the affair. What is crucial is that she start to be honest with herself and subsequently honest with you. Then you two can make plans to rebuild and protect your marriage.


I prefer the word skepticism myself. I am skeptical that she was held a slave to this man. Too many WW have come here or their BS' have come her claiming it was beyond their control. I do believe that an affair is very addictive, thus the difficulty in ending them and maintaining No Contact. Here is the point, what needs was the OM providing that you were not? What did she tell herself that permitted to have an affair on you and your family for 7 years? You need to know these things and more importantly she needs to know them and recognize them, otherwise you are still defensless.


Dupe??? No you trusted her and that is what you did. Most WS fool their spouse or there would not be affairs and my friend there are plenty of affairs. What we want is for you to develop a better detector, develop confidence in your intuition, and as you become more aware and sensitive to your W's behavior you will be better able to protect yourself and your marriage. You cannot do this development without better data. You don't seem to have that yet. I don't see anyone telling you to walk, I did say were I in your shoes I would have probably walked, but who knows. You are here and everyone posting to you are trying to get your feet firmly on the ground to handle all of this.



This is painful to say and I am sure painful to read. Apparently she knew she was worth $200. Now do you really believe she did it for the money? Do you really beleive she was trapped with no way out? Do you really believe it was low self worth? I don't beleive any of those. I beleive she did it because she wanted to. The reason she wanted to was it made her feel good. People with low self-worth (whatever that means) don't automatically go out and have affairs. Some of the most cocky SOB's I have met felt entitled to have affairs and NO ONE could claim they has low self-worth. Your W had poor boundaries and what little boundaries she had she did not protect. That is what must be addressed by her. She must develop/recognize boundaries that are consistent with your marriage vows and then she must develop plans to protect them.




As SuzieQ said, she successfully lied to you for 7 years, I'd say that makes here an accomplished liar. You are not a fool Mike, you like so many others trusted and she took advantage of that by lying to you quite well.



You are not bound for another fall, what we worry about is your W is bound to fail in her mission to recover this marriage if she is not honest with you and herself. You cannot address what you don't know, and this early in this situation you do not know all you need to know. If she works with you I think you will learn many more things in the coming months. WS rarely reveal all in the first few weeks.

God Bless,

JL

I don't see it that way, either. Affairs are typically much grimier and not very romantic, with two people looking at each other with empty, soul-less eyes and lying in order to get what they selfishly want, while their trusting spouse is sitting at home, clueless. Nope, not romantic at all, Mike. Very UNromantic.

No one is laughing, Mike. This is about the least funny situation any survivor of adultery would want to see another human having to go through. As a matter of fact, I am sure there are posters here who are sick for you.


How about "none of the above"? EXCEPT: (listen closely) you MUST remove the conditions that made the affair possible. That includes the secrecy around the affair and the job that made it convenient. If those conditions remain, then yes, you may be headed for disaster.