WW, it worries me that he still goes out on his own. Is he still going to bars w/male and female company? It is IB on his part and a LB for you. PLUS it is creating circumstances where an RA could occur. I don't know what to advise as you are in a situation where you, the WS, want R and the BS is not committed. Sounds familiar...

Anyway, what I mean is that I struggled with the same things. My H didn't go out, but he engaged in IB, mostly financial sorts of things - purchases that weren't POJA'ed, etc. A lot of that is solely on me, b/c I felt like I had no right to speak up and say, "No, I am not enthusiastic about..." because of what I did to him. I thought that maybe if I was submissive and went along with anything he wanted to do, that he'd love me again.

Well, that obviously didn't work! It drove me crazy and built resentment. I was playing the martyr and that's the wrong mindset - a renter's mindset.

When I was coaching w/JC, she walked me through some ways to try and introduce the MB concepts to my H. I had Dr. H's intro DVD, which came with the HNHN course, and I left it for him with a letter from me explaining that I'd found a plan to restore love to our M and here was that plan. I put it in a little popcorn bucket with a bag of microwave popcorn and some candy. It may not work - I don't know if my H ever even watched it - but if you haven't done a full-on intro to MB concepts it may help...

Again, I failed to encourage my H to participate. In the end, the damage I did was too great. But just b/c I failed doesn't mean the stuff doesn't work!

Hopefully some others can weigh in on addressing the issue of your H going out w/out you.

There is nothing to weigh in on. If you are actively working on recovering your marriage from disaster, you DO NOT GO OUT for RC OF ANY KIND without your spouse.

Yes It sounds as if the only one trying to make a M out of this mess is YOU. Your H is obviously not on board with affair proofing you M and POJA.
I think it comes a time when compensation is being offered by a WW that they may have to also quit being a doormat. It sounds as if he is justifying his action because of yours. Nobody will win if he continues this independent behavior and he is quite likely to justify an A himself.

He did stop his IB for a bit. But then went back to it. Basically, he said he does not have to take any action in terms of affair proofing his end as he was not the one who cheated so he does not have to change.

I have actually introduced some of the concepts to him before. POJA,time, care, protection, etc. So he is aware of them and this site. He just is not motivated to read the stuff, before he told me to just give him a summary by telling him. Not trying to defend him, but he is taking classes that he is on a tight schedule and even then he barely reads it and puts in much effort unless I push him and get him started by setting out plans and deadlines when he should have his assignments done and when he should sign up for exams.

Tonight I am signing up for the online program for the both of us. The good thing is that it does come with DVD's and CD's and such for us to start out with which does not take much effort. As well, hopefully with an accountability coach and the cost of the program it will motivate him to do some work. On one hand it did perk his interest when I brought it up and the fact he had access to Dr. Harley (I intially brought up the course packages that did not include the online stuff which he thought was a bad idea but when I brought up Harley he seemed a little more interested), but at the same time he is reluctant as he seems to worry as he says we have different martial goasl (me: recovery, him: divorce).

So we shall see how things go. I am working on my personal recovery and trying to decide what my goals in life are. What I want in terms of myself as an individual, in a marriage, in a family and where I want to be in terms of physical locations.

So signed up for the online program. Thought this was the next best thing as there was refusal to speak to Steve Harley. If the course goes well, maybe in time we will speak to Steve to help direct us on recovery as we are not even on the proper path at the moment or even in recovery (and if we even make it to that point).

I did watch the infidelity video that was recently posted in the video section. I think every one should watch the video whether they have dealt with it or not. I wish I had seen it sooner. I was the person who thought I was not vulnerable to it and my husband was the opposite. No excuses though for what I did. I cried near the beginning as it really hit me how much hurt I created (and that the hurt I am experiencing from my husband's detachment is nothing compared to what I did). The damage and hurt I inflicted on the one person I was supposed to love and cherish. I cannot put into words the thoughts and emotions that went through me as I watched the video. But it made me feel worse than scum.

Although my BH is mostly withdrawn. He does do stuff for me on a daily basis like picking me up/dropping me off at work on our scooter even when it is pouring rain out and he gets soaked. Shares what is going on in his life. After all that I did, at least he is still around for now and interacting with me pleasantly. We still share a bed and talk. But the physical affection has disappeared.

So not too much new here to report. We got our material for the online course, going to start them together hopefully this weekend. He is reluctant at doing the course but he figured it could be helpful if he chooses to remarry in the future.

Yesterday something happened that made me upset (I know, I should not be affected by it). He told me while waiting for me he met a man and they chatted. Well the man called and he said to him yeah I met my friend (referred to me). Now he refrains from telling people he is even married until he feels like telling the whole story. The fact that it upset me is my fault, I obviously have not let go of all expectations from his side.

That made me upset so when we went to bed I could not sleep, tossed and turned for an hour. So I got up and spent 4 hours staying up (too much was going through my mind) and plus we had discussed it before. Well he waited until I got back to bed to have sex. Everytime he got up from bed he would chat and check to see what I was doing.

I do not understand how the second I get upset and withdrawn he wants to get close. But not the other way around. I got up to clear my head, read and to let him sleep (he does not like it if I chat to clear my head ...lovebuster so I avoided it). And I got up to focus on myself, get my head on straight and focus as this distracted me...did not want to fall off the path of personal recovery. Only I can take care of my myself and my happiness.

I just have to remain focused on my personal recovery, eating well, working out, readings, focus on what I want in my life in terms of career and where I want to be living, etc. My goal is still martial recovery but I know I can live without him, I just want him still to be a part of my life.

Hey, WW26 - thanks for your post on my thread! I read your posts and think the same thing, we're dealing with some very similar issues. And it puts us in a pretty unusual position. Seems like most of the people who come here to post are BS's trying to end their WS's A and save their M...there are lots of BS's in various stages of either trying to kill an A or marital or personal recovery, but very few FWS's stick around, the majority of those who are here are in recovered M's.

So, we're kind of in a position of causing our own mess, and nobody, absolutely nobody, is going to fault our BH's for walking out the door.

It is difficult some days to stay focused on personal recovery. I wish I knew what the answer was to make it easier to focus on personal recovery, instead of being dragged into this shame spiral of how I am not doing enough for my H. I keep trying, like thanking him for and complimenting the things he does around the house, cooking dinner on days he picks up the kids - I was never the cook when we were together, it was always him (he's a MUCH better cook than I am, trust me!!!). So I'm trying to meet needs for DS and AD...occasionally he'll bite at little things that are kind of RC. More often I'll try to ask him to lunch and he changes it to he wants to meet for sex. I still am incredibly confused by the SF, so that's an entirely other issue. But if you're like me, it is still hard to let the little things roll off your back...like when you don't get thanked for dinner (I was raised where you always told momma you enjoyed supper!!!). I have to constantly be on my toes to not react to the little zingers and remain open to opportunities to meet needs.

Keep us posted how the online course goes - maybe it will resonate with your H - I hope the course goes well for the two of you!

I suggest telling him you like to know if he likes dinner. I've learned through experience that men don't think about things like that unless it's brought to them directly.

Hi WW26,

The guy who suggests open marriage and wants himself out of the marriage now and then has definitely something up his sleeve. Have you snooped? The guy who even suggests an open marriage surely doesn't have the marital or your interests in mind.

There are people who cannot get over their spouses affairs and that is a tragedy. But I do not think that his devastation is real or that your affair has opened his eyes since he has told and shown you that he has no reason to change his behaviour whatsoever. The amount of his IBs and LBs are not the proof of some sort of crystallization. He seems as dishonest and untrustworthy as he has always been.

You had an affair and you need to do everything to get things right again. No doubt about that. Even though he suggested it, you were the one who acted upon that. But this doesn't excuse you from the right to know what is going on on the other side. For the marital recovery you are talking about you have the responsibility to find out.

And just a word of caution from a FWW whose "H did it too" - whatever you find, it will not make your poor choices less significant or your affair "just a fling".

It is kind of complicated. He was okay with it as long as he never found out. But he did of course, nothing stays a secret forever.

What I did will not be lessened even if I find out he has done the same thing. I made many mistakes that led up to where I am. I take full responsibility for that. I chose to have an affair, my choice, my actions.

My focus is personal recovery and martial recovery. I may not get it all, but at least I can have an effect on my personal recovery and have full control. Like WPG said, the healing would be better if BH took part but I cannot make him nor do I have a say in it as I gave him the pass to walk away. If he walks away it is my own fault, no one, not OM not BH not my childhood.

WW26 and WPG... is there an easy way to find your original threads and read your stories? I seem to connect a bit with your situations, as a WW myself. Trying to get myself personally and maritally recovered. Your posts are helpful.

Thank you!

I would do some snooping. Then you have verified whether he has something going on or not.

From your previous thread and this - it doesn't sound that he is honest and transparent in his plans and actions.

1. I definitely view the OP as scum and have a low opinion of the OP as do many of the other foreigners in my city. But this of course translates to well I am just as bad as that, if not worse. How do you stop this destructive self-talk? I realize what I have done is the worst possible thing I could do to someone I love and it would not matter if the OP was viewed positively or negatively. But I realize this type of thinking is also not healthy for me in any way.
2. I do take full responsibility for what happened. However, as a WS do you inform new people that you are/were a WS or just leave in the past? How to approach it when meeting new people?

WW26, I know where you're at. If you've read my thread, you know I have been struggling with a very negative self-image and the concept of "self-forgiveness". It's easy for folks outside the situation to try to tell you how you should feel - for example, my IC tells me that I have to forgive myself (my mother tells me the same thing, and I could have saved a $45 copay, ha!)...but I'm stuck. I believe I will get through this - I know I'll be OK and I will survive - but it's not just a matter of forgiving myself for, oh, I don't know, breaking a piece of wedding china, or even forgiving myself for forgetting to buy a lottery ticket on the day my numbers were winners...I deliberately injured the man that I love. I caused my children to lose their father's presence in their lives every day. It wasn't an accident.

I don't know what the solution is, and I wish I did. I do know that I work to try and keep myself "busy," whether that's concentrating on someone else here on the boards, doing something with work, doing a project around the house, whatever. And I actively try to live my life better than I was living before. I don't always succeed...I still get irritated with the kids and snap at them, for example. I still slack off at work. But I'm making more efforts to get out of my "funk," to try and get involved in other things, to try and find things to enjoy again...all the while trying to extend those olive branches to my H and working on not expecting anything in return.

I am not saying it is easy. I can slip into a shame spiral faster than the speed of light. What you have to realize is that I have - you have - a choice to stop that spiral.

And you're not "worse" than the OP. You were - and the operative word here is WERE - the same as the OP. You both were weak. You both had poor boundaries. You both were sinners. lol you need to read the last few pages of my thread 'cause I am dealing with the same stuff ...the thing is, who are you NOW? I know, in my heart, that I am not the woman I was two years ago. I'm still learning not to let my actions from then define how I feel about myself now. It's definitely a work in progress...



I figure for the most part, it is not anybody's business who or what I am, or was. There are some people who know my whole story from my lips - other than family (mine and H's) I can count those friends on one hand. Others do know H and I are separated but nothing more than that. I'm wearing my ring again now and I present myself as a married woman. Those who do know I am separated know I want reconciliation. If I ever found myself in a situation with a female friend who was struggling with infidelity and she did not know my story, then I'd consider opening up to her. In the future, if my M is never repaired, if I ever end up in another relationship, then I'll need to be O&H about my past - and if that's a dealbreaker, then so be it. But I don't feel the need to broadcast the news to all and sundry...it's not that I am ashamed, it's that I am maintaining boundaries...and it goes back to something that stuck with me from the "Love and Respect" class H and I took, about women getting together and bashing their H's...and I made a committment to myself not to do that anymore.

Again, I am not perfect, but I am so much better at recognizing wrong behavior on my part now. At this point, really, all we can do as FWW's with BH's who are no committed to R is clean up our side of the street, as your sig line says...we can be responsible for ourselves and someday, someday, that is gonna pay off.

Hey WPG,

Thank you for your post.

I was just having a hard time as BH met the foreigners group who arrived like 3-6 months after D-day. They all know about it and most of them will not associate with me or OP. So that did not do much for my self-image. So trying not to let it affect me and be happy with the friends that I do have.

You don't "have" to do anything.
You have the choice to earn your own forgiveness.
That's how I choose to look at it.
Polish yourself everyday, and eventually the dirt and rust will be a memory.

I had some things in mind to say about repentance, and forgiveness, but I see Pep said it better with less words.

Please keep working on it, and have faith that it WILL work.

SS

Things seem to be finally looking up. Divorce is still in the back of our minds. However, we are spending more time together and planning a vacation for a week or so later this year. This is after he rejected the idea of going anywhere together except for the visit back home earlier. ( I had brought up the idea of taking a vacation together since early this year and he rejected it and told me no). I am trying to not get myself worked up over it but it seems like things are looking better but you never know. He even suggested going to a movie as well. Unfortunately, the movie we wanted to see will not be released here:( We actually did something outside of the home together this month too. I'm just doing my best to take care of myself mentally and physically. Here's to hoping things continue in the right direction.