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I see in the 101 forum how often conventional marriage counselors fail to offer the right path to rebuilding a loving relationship.

So I thought I would ask here, how many of you used counseling intentionally, or it just worked out that way, as a controlled path to divorce, bringing clarity, realization, honesty, and a more rational and less combative parting?

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I went to MC to help my marriage, but never had what it took to find one truly pro-marriage the way we needed. The ones we went to always pushed stuffing down feelings, sacrifice, and independent behavior.


Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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My now-Exww used "marriage" counseling as a controlled path to divorce. It was another manipulation tool used against me and the "marriage" counselor was her accomplice.

I definitely walked away from the experience with more clarity and realization, namely about the extent of my ww's lack of honesty.

We had a fairly rational and uncombative parting, but I hardly think it had anything to do with the time spent with the "marriage" counselor or any of his contributions. I would say it was more to do with the fact that I was coming here and gaining support and strategies to not go insane through the process. However, if you ask the "marriage" counselor, I'm sure he would be happy to take the credit.

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My WXH and I went to MC. He suggested it, and eventually admitted that his goal in seeking MC was to get me to change into what he wanted--which was essentially a Stepford Wife.

The MC told WH that if he wasn't willing to make changes that the marriage was doomed. WH told MC that he didn't think he had any flaws and had no intentions of doing anything different. He just felt that if *I* were a better wife, our marriage would be fine.

The MC did not try to steer towards divorce, though. He was a nice enough guy, but fairly clueless. I don't know if he really thought it was okay for WH to have an OW as long as WS promised that it was not a PA or what. But he never did anything to encourage an end to the A, and was fully aware of its existence.


Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
Plan D: Filed 11/13/09 Final 3/30/11
MC told me that he probably has a personality disorder
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We went to MC...our MC did not try to steer us either way, he asked what we wanted and we worked from there...

We did incorporate a ton of MB principals on our own outside of counseling. I talked with the MC about this and he encouraged it, as he could see growth each week.

at the time I felt like it helped alot bc my STXWH was trying, he seemed like he was vested in the M, maybe it was more guilt from the pain he caused. IDK

But somewhere along the line he just stopped trying. Maybe he was never really happy immediately after the A maybe he was, IDK.

Oh and he REFUSED to go back to counseling saying it didn't help bc here we are again, fighting. REALLY stop hanging out with lonely POW, place our marriage before her and the fighting would end- JACK WAGON!!


BS-me 40y
FWH-41y
DDay-11-30-06
DS-18y
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We went to three different MCs. With the first one, I was under the impression we were working on our marriage, but my STBXH was just starting his affair. I really think he used our MC as a cover.

The second MC was after Dday #1 (we switched because the first one was completely useless once the affair came to light). He did get WH to agree to not see OW and that we wouldn't talk to attorneys. Again WH was so completely in fantasy land - he had lied about the "no contact" in front of the MC for several months. STBXH liked the second counselor so he started seeing him on his own during one of our periods where we thought we were getting a divorce but didn't actually move forward. So MC told us when we tried reconciling that he couldn't see us anymore since he was seeing STBXH individually.

The third MC (and the only female therapist we saw) was okay, but the two of us were way too far gone at that point to bring us back together.

In retrospect, any kind of counseling can only work if both people are fully invested in obtaining results and are completely honest. My STBXH used it as a way to make himself feel as if he tried to work on our marriage - though the complete lack of effort and integrity made that an impossibility.


Me: 43
STBXH: 46
DD: 13
DS: 9
Married 15 years
D Day #1 9/25/10
D Day #2 12/13/10
False recoveries in between and until 4/4/11
WH moved out 12/11
Divorce not final
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There is no ethical basis for this:

"So MC told us when we tried reconciling that he couldn't see us anymore since he was seeing STBXH individually."

Many counselors don't see couples together, but only separately. Some do both, as a mix, in order to get to the truth.

Some of the answers are not to what I was asking, but good insights into how spouses misuse counseling, as well as how counselors are inept.

I guess I was asking more of if any couples, or one spouse, who knew it was over, and did not want to reconcile, used marriage counseling as a controlled environment to reveal their own feelings, as well as to get their spouse to realize it was over, and to manage the feelings so the separation and divorce process was not so emotional and explosive, and run by attorneys with their own agendas.


Me: 61
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Originally Posted by Retread
I guess I was asking more of if any couples, or one spouse, who knew it was over, and did not want to reconcile, used marriage counseling as a controlled environment to reveal their own feelings, as well as to get their spouse to realize it was over, and to manage the feelings so the separation and divorce process was not so emotional and explosive, and run by attorneys with their own agendas.

Ah. Now I see what you're looking for. I thought you were asking if the MC had steered toward divorce, not one of the spouses.


Me: BS 51
Himself: WH 53, EA/PA w/ RunnerSlut his "running buddy."
Buncha' kids. The two youngest are still minors.
Separated: 08/13/09 after 25 years of marriage
Plan D: Filed 11/13/09 Final 3/30/11
MC told me that he probably has a personality disorder
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Well, let me broaden the question to include not just one spouse using joint counseling as a way to break the news, or realization, but to both spouses finding that MC is working that way.


Me: 61
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Retread, as you have seen by reading here for any length of time, most "marriage" counselors are far closer to divorce counselors to begin with. That's because the counselor's goal is not to keep the couple together; the counselor's goal is to end conflict. The fastest and easiest way to do that is to encourage the couple to separate and/or divorce.

As for deliberately using a counselor to break the news to an unwanted spouse that one partner wants a divorce? Sounds sneaky and spineless to me. Try some cold hard honesty and then just Get Out. Don't drag out the process and try to feel good about it by letting the dumped one down easy in a counselor's office, and telling yourself you're such a good guy by making it "easy" for them. Why not just break the news in a restaurant to ensure the dumpee doesn't make a scene?

Anyone who wants to break the "I want a divorce" news in a counselor's office is only trying to make it easy on themselves, not on their discarded spouse.

You want a divorce and you're going to file? Tell the spouse face to face, immediately move out of the house, and go see a counselor INDIVIDUALLY BY YOURSELF if you want to feel good about what you've just done.

And if both spouses want to see a counselor together to ease their way through divorce? Sorry - it doesn't work that way. Married couples work together to help each other get through things. Divorced people first call their lawyers and then call their own individual friends and counselors to help them get through the divorce.

You can't have it both ways. Either work on the marriage together or get through the divorce as a single person. I always ask the same question: What part of DIVORCED do you not understand??


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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Mulan,

I think you missed my point entirely, and were just getting some things off your chest. I think you are right about a lot of them, but not all counselors are bad or lukewarm on marriage.

I was really not talking about using counseling as a sneaky method to bring up divorce, but counseling may actually serve a valid purpose in making both spouses face reality - they either need to change, or split. They are unlikely to have much more success at a second marriage unless they change, though.

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Retread - the success rate, defined as saving the marriage, for most counselors is dismally low. If the couple is willing to try, they'd be better off using MB.

If they are not sure, and want to know if they should "change or split", the last thing I would advise is going to a regular marriage counselor because they will surely be advised to split.

Since you are on the MB site, why not use the MB methods instead of considering something with an extremely poor success rate?


Me, BW
WH cheated in corporate workplace for many years. He moved out and filed in summer 2008.
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I DO use MB, even when I have to do so unilaterally.
I am not involved in any conventional counseling, and don't advocate any of it, but I do recognize that there is a diversity of approaches and quality out there. Some work to restore the marriage, even if most fail.

What I was asking was about marriage counseling of any kind being a moderating force on discussion and introspection, which might make some couples who should split up, realize it, rather than be shocked when their spouse walks out.

Even Dr. Harley does not advocate every couple staying together. That is why he has Plan B. That is why he has written articles on how to tell when it is time to give up on the marriage to that person. He and his son walk some couples through the process of realization.

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Originally Posted by Retread
Some of the answers are not to what I was asking, but good insights into how spouses misuse counseling, as well as how counselors are inept.

I guess I was asking more of if any couples, or one spouse, who knew it was over, and did not want to reconcile, used marriage counseling as a controlled environment to reveal their own feelings, as well as to get their spouse to realize it was over, and to manage the feelings so the separation and divorce process was not so emotional and explosive, and run by attorneys with their own agendas.
I guess the disconnect for me in reading this question is that it is based on "marriage" counseling, when in fact, when laid out as you proposed, it's actually "divorce" counseling.

If someone uses "marriage" counseling to reveal their intent to divorce (basically blindsiding the other spouse) then I'd say it's just another form of manipulation. Why not be honest and upfront about it? Maybe the other spouse would rather go with their own counselor, as opposed to one recommended by someone who will eventually become their adversary in a divorce proceeding (and divorce IS an adversary proceeding, thus the vs. in "Smith vs. Smith").

Thinking on this further, how would the spouse who wanted to divorce broach this subject with their spouse? I know that I personally would NOT be interested in "counseling" with my spouse who wanted to divorce me. I especially would not be interested once I agreed to go and then found out that his intention was to help me face a divorce.

This actually happened to me. My DH arranged for "counseling" for us leading me to believe that it was to work on our marriage when in fact, he was telling the counselor privately that he hoped the counselor could help me face the fact that our marriage was over. That was a double betrayal for me and extremely dishonest.

So no, I don't believe "marriage" counseling is in the best interest of the marriage if the intent is to divorce.


Widowed 11/10/12 after 35 years of marriage
*********************
“In a sense now, I am homeless. For the home, the place of refuge, solitude, love-where my husband lived-no longer exists.” Joyce Carolyn Oates, A Widow's Story
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Ever since I discovered my husband's affair, I have read Dr. Harley's advice and bought his books. Together with this, my husband and I have attended marriage counseling provided my our church facilities and also attended a couple weekend.

Luckily for me, the steps that was advice by our church counselor is in-line with Dr. Harley's points so I was able to apply his advices along with our progress.

However, as the matter with my husband, as it was discovered, was not due to me or our marriage, but was more of a split-self case due to his own insecurities, there was very little counseling could do for us as he was insincere with me and the counselor.

I persisted anyway to continue with counseling as I felt it was important for him to be educated with the values in marriage building. He admitted that despite knowing it all in theory, he is unable to practice it as he was addicted to his affairs (this is his second time to my knowledge, there could have been more).

I discovered his problem 4 years ago, since then, I have been trying my best to apply Dr. Harley's concepts to make sure I was the best wife I could be. We only started counseling 9 months ago after my discovery of the second affair (I don't know if there were any in between this 2).

After trying for so long, and knowing that my husband was just having his share of 2 cakes at the same time, I had no choice but to execute plan B in order for him to break off with his affair. He did and has tried to maintained no contact and he has agreed to the terms of Honesty, Care and Transparency. But we have just moved to this stage of rebuilding trust which is another hard process on it's own. Along with this, we are also attending further family counseling with our children to rebuild the family values that has been lacking since my husband's wayward ways. In addition to this, we are going for spiritual retreats with the hope of reprogramming our values in life to a more faithful one.


Having gone through this, I am glad to have a counselor to journey with us through the ups and downs. And to help give me the courage to take the next step at every crossroad I face. It is not easy to move past the fear and we need an experienced person to guide us to face the reality of things.

Most importantly, stick with a good counseling for as long as possible. Even if things seem not to be working out and for as long as your spouse is willing to attend the session (insincere or not), the truth will be revealed eventually about the person you have to live with. That way, at least we know we have tried our very best and to give ourselves the time to evaluate our lives before making the final decision (and sometimes, it even takes making this final decision several times).

I hope sharing my experience will help others in their choice to fight for their marriage. I am still taking each day at a time now and appreciating each day of peace with my family.

My prayers to everyone in this forum that they may find the peace they truly deserve.

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Originally Posted by princessmeggy
If someone uses "marriage" counseling to reveal their intent to divorce (basically blindsiding the other spouse) then I'd say it's just another form of manipulation.

That's what my mother did to my father. Actually she did it to all of us, come to think of it. First she took me to the counselor and had him argue with me and explain the marriage was like a leaky boat and needed to be abandoned. Then my parents told us they were going to this counselor and like an idiot I thought they were really getting counseling. She showed up at the first session and gave my dad his clothes and announced she was divorcing him. (Of course it took her something like two years after that to actually go through with it.) Then she brought dad home and made him participate in a sham joint announcement to us children that they had agreed to separate. It didn't take a rocket scientist to know who wanted to keep the marriage and who wanted to abandon it, though.

Wow, what great memories... It's nice to grow up and reevaluate stuff and realize that the parent you thought was a piece of work really was a piece of work.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I think just these few replies show how counseling can serve many purposes and agendas, good and bad.

I think it is good if it brings some control and sobriety to a marriage that cannot be salvaged. It should not be used for manipulation, but obviously can be, and is.

If it helps make the parting more collaborative, and keeps it out of court, that is a good thing.


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