Of all the questions I want to ask and cannot seem to do is if she has a plan in place if I leave. She has no family nearby, works a part time job, and has little nearterm prospects.

She must have put some thought into it but I dont want to scare her as I did say Im sticking around.

You see, Im stuck. And I told her this. Between my need to be a full time father and the anguish under which I live everyday. Its just not fair. I want to the long term affair and nice things she experienced. I want to hurt her like she me.

Im stuck living this nightmare. I cannot disappoint my babies. WW is not going to hurt them twice.

mmmm recognise those feelings but I also know that a RA is not they way to do it, you can never hurt her they way she hurt you as the circumstances are different. She got in too deep and then was stuck, you would be making a choice, that is not the same. That is not minimising in any way the hurt she has caused you.

Don't do anything you can't undo.

Don't ask her is she has a plan, if you leave she will have to make a plan but for now, mostly what I read is you want to recover. Why torture yourself with her plans? If you left would it be any of your concern what she did, other than about the kids?

I am no MB vet but a veteran of your feelings, listen to the advice here, act on it, it does work, I just wish I had found it earlier and then would not have made the mistakes I made, indeed might already have either moved out or recovery would be a lot further forward!

Mike, you are very early into all of this and I know it must seem overwhelming, considering that this was a LTA. I just wanted to share something that Dr. Harley said about getting the details.

I'm not saying you don't need your answers, because only you can say how much you need to know. You're just now catching up about things going on in your marriage when your W has known the details for a very long time. If you feel like you can't control your emotions during this radically honest Q&A session, sometimes it's better to do it in front of a professional.

I am so sorry for your pain. It's been said that some people feel that the pain from an affair can be worse than the pain from losing a child. I agree. It's that bad. Losing a child is something beyond a person's control. Adultery (in the end) is a cold, calculated choice. It doesn't "just happen." Sorry, I digress and that's a subject for another soapbox.

Anyway, when the books arrive, devour them. You (and your family) have a very long road ahead of you, but you can come out of this with a better-than-ever marriage, if that's the route you choose to take.

Mike, Don't assume your FWW had any sort of a plan at all. I don't believe most waywards think anything about the affair all the way through. From beginning to end, nothing makes any sense. That's what drives some of us crazy; it's not the kind of thinking we can relate to.

Yes, in some ways it would be easier to leave the marriage. I have considered it, too, and we don't have the children at home anymore, so it would be easier in a way for me. But after considering that "leave" decision all the way through, I decided that there was too much to lose.

Either choice kind of sucks, doesn't it? If you stay, you and your wife MUST get past all this and move toward recovery. It will take enormous effort absolutely. But if you leave, there will be the financial and emotional implications to work through, and of course, the pain your children will suffer. Adultery SUCKS!

The thing that kept me in my marriage is that I didn't want the affair to "win." My husband is desperately sorry and would do anything to somehow go back and change what he did. We both talked about how easy it would be to just give up and move on with our own lives. But it would have been more of a loss than persevering in restoring romantic love. Yes, I still feed sadness and it's going to take a while for me to feel that love toward my husband I once had. But he, like your wife, is willing to keep on the path to restoration. So that's where we're headed.

We betrayed spouses can totally completely relate to you. But consider that it's possible in 2 - 5 years, you and your wife could be in love with each other again. She may come to truly appreciate your forgiveness and love. You and she may move into your later years with a very strong marriage, yes, with the scars of adultery, but you will have come out the other side.

You made a choice.

Yes, but I didnt choose for my wife to be a cheater. And the wars are a symptom of that. I, once again, apologized for the questions and she, once again, apologized for my hurt.

And, I agree with what was said earlier, I dont think she went looking for this to happen but it snowballed and then your stuck in there.


As I have read a lot of the material on these pages from the DR., I hope Im not putting too much stock in these books Im getting. Im really hoping they can help me remove the need to know and the subsequent need to ask about all these details.

I don't think the books are going to take that need away, Mike. That's in YOUR make-up. Some people need all the details, others less. Some don't want to know anything about their spouse's affair.

I think you will find that it is OKAY to want to know. And I think you will find that it is a part of your healing to go through this with your WW. For both of you.

Thank CV, buckling in for the long haul. Doing all I can to smile and maintain conversation. I realy dont my kids see my depression.

I really focused hard yesterday not blow up on our date last night. I did. But it really was one of the first times since week 1 to get her alone without the kids downstairs or just outside playing ball. I couldnt resist and I blew it.


In real honesty, here, I dont see how I can forgive her for this. Its too huge. Its too degrading both what she did to me and to herself. Ill alway have the stooge feeling she gave me. The neglect of my needs physical and emotional for all these years, the humiliation of him being a part of our lives, and the plain simple notion my wife was another guys girlfriend for many years. And all that goes with her being that. Its a combination of jealously, resentment, and abject anger and my need to vent at every turn. This is bad for me, her, and most importantly our children.

I got her apology 1000x but the dam is broken.

Im going to read those books and she'll read them too. We'll do the questionaires and try to move forward becasue I love her. But my anger is not subsiding in any way. All I do now is keep it to myself while Im with her and/or the kids. All of you have hammered home the need NOT to have AO, so Im keeping it inside.

I envisioned the massive upheaval of many peoples lives that me leaving will create. So, the high road would have me forgiving and healing. I dont know for if sure she is going to want the basket case she turned me in to forever. I see her frustration mounting over my huffing and puffing and again draining the Love Bank.

So, 20 days after d-day, the plan is following Dr. Harleys ideas in the books and give them sincere focus. And any permanent decision made after will be done with knowing I tried. We are meeting with a marriage counselor jointly next week. Im not moving fast or in haste to end this thing. But, the petty part of me is saying, "THAT SIR, IS YOUR BEST WAY IS GAIN REVENGE". The practical side of me is saying, "Thats stupid, stick with the program and it will work itself out".

Schizo stuff is in full effect.

Mike, I've had a lot of thoughts along the way of reading your thread, but have been hesitant to jump back in and post. I see so much of my H's anger and resentment - which, while justified, has been tough for me to deal with, and I can't really speak for how to manage it. What I can give you is at least some insight on how it could affect your R and your WW.

Enough posters have said on yours as well as other threads that the lies hurt a BS more than the actual A, and even though I'm the FWW here, I'd tend to agree that my lies hurt my H probably more than the actual A itself. When each lie is found out, it's a new blow. So my first advice to your WW is that she needs to come clean about everything. If that means taking a poly, then she should do that. Because the longer any trickle-truth goes on, the more resentment you will have and that, combined with the long-term nature of the A will throw your R into a tailspin you may not be able to stop.

Second, JL said it best. Your silence speaks much louder than your noise. Not literal silence as in stonewalling, but silence as in calm, collected. When my H found out the truth about my A, I walked on eggshells around him. I was terrified of making him angry, of making him rage, of driving him away. And we did talk about the A often - it didn't always end in anger or rage, often it was tears on my part. Lest you think my H was a violent person, he wasn't...I'd seen him have a temper before, sure...but never anything like the night he found out my A was physical: he trashed our bedroom, called me names, and almost hit me. Then there was the day he threw his wedding ring into the lake, punched the crap out of his steering wheel and drove like a maniac with me and the kids in the car, screaming obscenities and calling me names. Well, I believed (still believe) I'd pushed him to that. I said some stupid things - this was well before we found MB and I was rotten at recovery.

Anyway, I felt like we were constantly talking about "it," every single night after the kids went to bed, every time we were alone, and I was drained. So I did something stupid. I had a week-long trip scheduled for work about 2.5 months after full disclosure. It was for a management class I was in, and earlier I'd asked him to go with me. As the date approached and things didn't seem like they were getting better, I told him I'd rather he not go with me. It was a stupid move on my part. I put my work ahead of my H, ahead of our recovery. My reasons were purely selfish - I was worried that we'd be up all night rehashing the A, that I'd be drained and unable to concentrate on what I needed to do for the class.

After finding MB, if I was given the chance to address the trip again, I would have made a different decision. I would have pulled out of the class, I would have brought him with me, anything but how I hurt him and gave him a fresh heaping of rejection. But I didn't understand much about recovery then, or the pain that a BS feels.

So my usual longwindedness is to convey 2 things: first, your W must get on board with MB as soon as humanly possible so she does not make the same mistakes in recovery that I made. Just reading the books is not enough. She needs to digest them, live them, breathe them. If she's uncomfortable with posting on the forum, make sure she's reading. Disclaimer - some vets may disagree with sending a WW here too soon - but if you are 100% certain the A is dead then I strongly recommend having her at minimum, read. Reading the posts from BS's and in particular from BH's was a HUGE kick in the azz for me. And there are folks on the forum that can help her to walk the narrow path she has to walk.

Second, when you fight those urges to open up a war, you gotta fight harder. Others have said, vent here, go scream in your car, go to the batting cage or driving range (lol I used to throw rocks at the trees in the backyard). Once your W gains some perspective on what happens to a BS, all the storm of emotion inside you, I think that will help you tremendously. Each time you are angry, or berate her, you are LB-ing her. Eventually, if she "gets it," if she becomes a truly repentant wayward, she'll likely berate herself enough for both of you.

Mike this is true. But while we cannot choose the wars all the time, we *can* choose how we will fight them.

Good points, CV. Especially You can't outrun a tsunami. And that it what you try to do when you try to corral your emotions after D-Day. I told you some of my story. I know how hard it is. Remember: Anger DOES NOT HELP. That doesn't mean you're not allowed to have it. Of COURSE you are. Just try to minimize this - it sets back healing.

Hang in there, Mike. We know what you're going through.

Interesting doings. Got a threatening email from OM wife tonight, first time we've heard from her since day 1. She wanted me to know my wife was the agressor and chased down her wonderful husband. And, that I needed to be set straight about the fact. Then I proceeded to tell her 3 or 4 things my wife told me about the relationship that she didnt know. So it blew up in her face.

I showed my FWW the email from her and immediately she picked up the phone and got OM wife on the phone. My FWW had told me all that OM wife was ready to unload.

Im very proud of my wife. She's living the hell of her making and is doing great.

I found a technique, however, on the phone with OM wife tonight, I decided to put all the hours the OM and FWW spent together in a bucket filled with nice dinners, shoppoing, great gifts, and all the rest. I bought a back yard open fire pit today and I threw all that bucket in there along with all the stuff from the past. We did with our kids there so they knew where I stand. Im tired of my wife being scared and my kids being scared and Im ready to move forward.

In retrospect, that call from OM s wife was fantastic tonight.

good job!

stop, breathe, think. mike. the night was good, go with it.

This is also known as: OM threw your WW under the bus.

It's good that you corrected anything her WH told her in his desperate attempt to be 'less' of an adulterer.

3 Full Weeks in, baby. doing great.

I sent OM wife an email to help her a bit as I have been fortunate enough to get the guidance here and she still in a bad place. Felt good to be able to help someone else.

I told her the simple steps: demand the truth and get all the info you need up front, put all that info behind you, and start to move on.

If you cant get truths then you have no basis and you might as well divorce or just hang on until his next affair.

We agreed she I will have virtually no further contact as full cutout in my mind, me she and I too shouldnt speak.

But as I told her, she and I are forever linked by one f'd up situation. We are left to repair what our spouses did their best to destroy.

Im in a great place today.

After a number of emails back and forth with OM's wife where I did my best impression of you guys and held the high road and encourage her to seek all the truth up front and work to move on.

Shes in major fear that in 6 months or so this "love affair" can reblossom becuase its out and theres no need to lie. My wife sent an email apologizing directly and telling her in no certain terms she has no interest in her husband. And she reiterated that directly to him on the phone last night when OM wife called me.

Since I share all the emails with my FWW I encourage her to do th same. He return his own email with a very impressive apology and taking most of the blame for the relationship. Said his stupidity and selfishness are beyond words. I was something unplanned and he didnt know how stop it once it got going. He cares a great deal for my wife. He wished us luck in my business and is sorry he wont be able to see my kids grow up as he got very close to us.

So there you have it. A little more closure for me.

I certainly have more to learn about why my wife let herself go this far. It clearly was a financial relationship with a bit of socializing involved especially in the last number of years. My wife didnt want to be there, he knows it, but he took care of her and something in her obliged. We'll figure it out. I actually felt sorry for both FWW and OM during the emails. They both seemed pretty pathetic.

Doing good. Need to AO is at nil.

I am concerned about this. Your WW obviously wanted to be there, or she wouldn't have been there.

Have you discussed the ENQ's with her? Would you consider counseling with the Harleys? I still get the impression that you're giving your wayward wife a free pass, and she does not deserve that.

No free pass. Im not well. Im having big problems with her "mountain of time" she spent with this man. Its an absolute mountain of time that she doesnt dispute and in fact doesnt say a lot of other than letting my imagination run wild about the what the time was like. She says it was a blur.

Again we had another party to go to last night this time a wedding which is no place for someone like me to be at. I lost control and ruined. We got home and she laid there as I laced into her about my lack of options. If I leave, I destroy my kids and their whole world changes and I become as selfish as she was. I stay I have to somehow put this mountain of sex I wasnt a part of in the back of my mind.

I dont like either choices, being dead seems much better at least Ill have no pain. I gave her 45 minutes at 1am of demeaming talk which resulted in nothing.

I cannot move on as it turns out. Im in trouble. Im ready to pack my bags, at least the kids will hate her because they'll know she caused it, the community will find out, and the upheaval will be immense, so there will be some satisfacttion in making her misrable.

I hate her for doing this.