Hi CWMI, I'm not telling you to drop the DJs for your husband's sake. I don't know if that would impact him the way everyone keeps telling you it will if he really has a disorder.

I say that because my ex has not been formally diagnosed, but he is the kind of guy who I�ve never seen (in 12 years of marriage plus 3 years of dating) exhibit remorse for having hurt someone. I�ve seen him be sad about things not working out for him, but that�s not the same thing. So I tried all the �fix your marriage� stuff but you can�t fix NPD. The person has to be motivated to fix it themselves.

The reason I�m asking you to look at some of your feelings and frustrations about your H, is for YOUR sake. For your own peace of mind. To see if there�s a way you can view it that causes less frustration, less stress, less anger for YOU. I don�t care about your H. He sounds like a selfish jerk to me. Wait... is that a DJ? lol! I�d probably still be married to my own ex-jerk if he hadn�t lost his mind. But by changing my internal dialogue, I was able to come to greater peace and less frustration until we actually divorced. I hear an extreme amount of frustration in your posts, and I don�t think you should be doomed to that eternally just because your H won�t change.

Sometimes I fail to be as honest and direct as I should be in observations. So, balancing hrdwr observations with the risk of being shut out completely requires that long pole.

Should I mention this? Is it worth the probable cost?

So, no. I don't want to run, I just want to preserve the opportunity to offer help. Battling the "people pleaser" in me.

I agree with Daisy that you'll have to learn reduce your frustration with your DH in the meantime.

Btw, CWMI, I'm happy to read that you had a great Mom's Day. I liked the spontaneity of drinking the Dom, instead of saving it for the anniversary. I think it mellowed the moment so you two would relax and let your guard down.

As far as the calendar, that stinks. But your post makes it seem like he thought he had sent it to you, but was mistaken. It also shows that he is flying by the seat of his pants at work...he isn't looking at that calendar for reference, he's going along on auto-drive.

But those are my assumptions.

Just because someone is successful in business doesn't mean they are successful in personal relationships. Oprah's a perfect example.

OCD aside, this could be a lack of understanding how to balance work life and home life on your DH's part. These skills have to be learned somewhere and it sounds like they weren't modeled to your husband by his parents. If that's the case, he doesn't know how to combine a work and personal life. Work is in the "work" compartment and "personal" is in its compartment. He knows how to do his work successfully and success is measurable: sales, bonuses, income, reviews, accolades, etc. He's successful at work and work is probably the top thing that translates success into his personal life. His work provides for the financial and material well-being of his family. Since it's this way, he will focus more on work (and doubly so if the work environment is where he gets an admiration or recreational EN met).

In many ways, you are competing against that very same thing which provides for your life and your family's life. And you're going to have to sell your husband on why it's in his best interest to make changes, esp if what he's doing allows his family to have/be so different from that misery that I perceive he grew up in.


Sell the salesman.

Battle away. I only chase off people who have told me not to post to them, but then post to me.

RMJ, there are lots of speculations that may be made. I know he wants something entirely different from what he grew up with.

Right now, I just started Maymester today, and I'm going to be intensely busy for the next three weeks.

Oh, too, want to add: I did hire SH to 'sell' him. I don't think I can be any more successful than Steve was--I'm an amateur, after all. If six months of talking to Steve didn't work, I don't think anything can.

Back to busy, busy...homework up the REAR!

But you didn't do everything you needed to do as part of the plan. You didn't eliminate disrespectful judgments. They are still going on. There's no way Steve or anyone else could bring your husband on board if you're not following the plan. In that respect, you ARE a better persuader than Steve, or at least you have the potential to be, for your own husband.

From the DJ article of the basic concepts:
That's what I do, markos. The whole empathy conversation was that.

Good news: finals tomorrow and Maymester is done!

Bad news: I'm annoyed.

I think I mentioned the hunting thing before. Short version: H came home when the youngest child was just a couple weeks old and announced he was 'taking up hunting again'. Surprised me, I never knew he hunted to begin with. Never mentioned it, none of his friends or family mentioned it, he had no equipment, not even a camouflage cap...anyway, this was pre-MB, but I attempted a POJA, didn't work because he agreed to it then did what he wanted to anyway. It was a horrible experience. He sold all the new equipment he bought and it's been a non-issue since then.

Til today. Same guy he was with during The Phone Call (earlier upthread) sent him an email about his hunting property and an offer: "I'll take you in Oct/Nov". My initial reaction was something like, "The he** you will." H's response to the email was non-committal and didn't reference the invite at all.

Here's where I'm annoyed: H didn't meet this guy until several years after the 'hunting incident'. But obviously he's been talking about hunting with this guy and has indicated an interest in doing the activity. Further annoyed because I talked to H about it and he denied ever indicating that he had an interest in it. Huh, wha? Okay, I said, then why don't you decline the offer? He said: "I haven't really decided whether I would want to go or not."

Fair enough. Problem is, I can't think of a single thing that would make me enthusiastic about my H taking up a hobby like hunting. Before MB, I attempted to 'sacrifice' to make him happy but I'm not going to do that now! I don't want to be married to someone who goes off on hunting trips. Good Lord, we've had enough issue with business trips. I've already told him before that I never would have married a hunter. I'm resentful over trying to give him what he wanted before and getting taken advantage of. I still have no interest in a person who goes hunting, or on any other overnight activity, and I don't trust him NOT to stay overnight because we've made that agreement so many times before and I got screwed every. freaking. time. I want it back to non-issue.

So, for POJA, I'm okay to stick with not-enthusiastic-ever-nevah stance, right? I was NOT enthusiastic before when I agreed to him going. I am much, much less enthusiastic now. It would take less than one season for me to not love him. I would seethe with anger the first minute he was out the door just remembering that night he abandoned me with a newborn+2 babies+7yo.

Okay, this might work for POJA: take us with him, and hunt with his sons. I could agree to that. Good? He wants to talk about it later.

I don't understand the seething with anger at anything besides child abuse, molestation, and infidelity. Oh and the fact that if you're black you have a different set of standards (lower) to recieve public assistance in Oklahoma than if you're white. I'm on the phone tomorrow to cause a storm and picket in front of DHS until this racism is noticed.

Okay, so that didn't help at all with your post.

Anyway...I think everyone going would be a great idea.

Anyway, I wasn�t enthusiastic about camping. But I could see that it would mean so much to my wife and the kids wanted to go. So what the heck�24 hours out camping aint going to kill me. So we went. They even had a rapids ride so it was slightly better. Except I can�t remember if the water was so high or so low that there were no rapids so I was stuck in this little raft with my mom and my 8 year old for like 2 hours slloooooooowly drifting down this river. That sucked. So the kids at some point forgot to zip back up the tent and it poured down. We get back to the tent all drenched and most of the tent is filled with rain except for the main part of it. So there�s like 7 of us sleeping in this 1 area that�s meant for 2-3 and we couldn�t leave it open because it was pouring down like a civ. I had an absolutely horrible time. I think the worst time is I griped the entire time and made it very clear I was miserable. Talk about a joy kill. You know what I regret the most about that? Being a jerk about it. It meant so much to the kids and my wife to go on this camping trip. So I�ve agreed to go again when we take off down to San Antonio in a couple weeks. But I�m going to be happy and pleasant about it. My unhappiness or whatever you want to call it about not wanting to be camping will be very short lived but my wife and kids will have a very long term happy memory. Anyway, I know that a lot of us have preconceived notions on what we would love and hate. I thought, �eh�I�ll try this camping thing�maybe, just maybe I�ll like it.�

Anyway, I�m just kinda� rambling. Your situation kinda� reminded me of the whole camping thing. If camping/hunting doesn�t repulse you, this might be a great family thing if all of y�all go.

We just went camping over the weekend.

I love camping, now that the kids are older. Babies + camping = no fun.

But this weekend was a blast!

I seethe with anger over abandonment, kt. He left me against my will *overnight* (no overnight was the agreement we made) with a newborn, a 1yo, and a 2yo. The oldest wasn't demanding at that point, but the rest were. Yes, seething is the correct word, and anger is the emotion I mean to convey. I was mad as hell. Compounded by his nyah-nyah-not-answering-the-phone thing. WTH? They are his children, too. How do you just disappear? Who does that kind of thing?

ps--just remember not to call it "reverse racism." The standards should be equal. Are there black people in Oklahoma? Why? ATL is THE place for upwardly mobile African Americans. Send them here!

Yeah, I might POJA the camping trip to wait for another year or two since our 2.5 year old wouldn't have fun and that would take a lot of extra work and stress to chase him around in the woods.

My idea of camping is when we go to the lake and get to sleep on the family house boat which is docked about 50 yards from the lake house which we can run in and get a shower and have food cooked on a stove/grill in the AC Don't get me wrong, I like the outdoors so long as it's not sharing public showers and bathrooms and sleeping outside with critters that crawl and slither.

I was just thinking...that anger that you've been holding onto have you thought about letting it go? That was many years ago? Like 5 or so ago? I think eventually you have to forgive or the resentment continues to eat at you.

I only say this because my exwife used to have abandoning activities quite frequently and I held onto that resentment and anger for so long. It affected teh way I viewed others (like if someone did something in their marriage that I wouldn't like they were a bad spouse and it would make me angry and how could they treat their spouse taht way). When, really, if their spouse is okay with it then why am I angry.

Anyway, yes...we have a few black people here. My wife called them and asked if she could get food stamps while she was in school aand they asked if she was black. Because she's not, she wasn't okay to receive benefits. We also found out that even with as much as we make, we'd be able to receive food stamps if we were black. Seriously?! You mean those people getting fodo stamps that drive Cadiallacs are only getting them because they're black?! Now htat makes my blood boil.

They asked her race??? That's so crazy wrong. I don't think we have anything like that here. I'd move.

Actually, I'd go down there and apply, and get it IN WRITING if there is racial discrimination going on. Get a REASON for the decline. She might have talked to someone who isn't the sharpest tool in the drawer. Civil servants aren't generally well-paid, so the profession draws a mix of dedicated people and those who simply take an available job.

I HAD let my anger go about that incident, but it bubbles up when triggered. It's not something I'm angry about all the time, and I'm not angry right now...I'm cautious, and bracing. I feel a selfish moment coming on, and I hate those. He hasn't decided? How much time does one need to decide whether or not to do something they know their spouse abhors???

Ah, so, the whole 'talk about it later' thing didn't go well. He said, "Don't worry, I'm not going to go." I said, "So tell your buddy that." He said he would. I asked him what he was going to say. He said he would just say thanks but no.

I want a little more than that. *sigh* I'm so demanding! I want the story I know to match the story everyone else involved knows. He already told the guy that he was "happy to learn how to answer his phone so I wouldn't call him so much"; I want him to tell him the truth about why he will not be joining him on a hunting trip. Apparently there's more of a relationship there than I thought--I've never met the guy.

I just want openness and honesty in my life. I would NEVER entertain the thought of going on a trip with someone else, much less with someone my H had never met. I would never think to invite someone else's spouse on a trip with me. People are just so wrong...

cwmi I totally understand why you're upset and why you want your H to line up his words to outsiders to the values that you and your H share sometimes. All that stuff has upset me too over the years. But you've been here long enough to know that there is nothing anywhere in MB that says you get to decide what he says to other people. How open he chooses to be with other people or not.

I see the issue as a split in values between you two. The tool for that is the respectful persuasion. But there is no guarantee that your H is going to come to share your values.

Have you ever watched the movie Fireproof together? It's a great movie that shows the kind of heart change it sounds like you're looking for.

Maybe this can be a growth opportunity together.

In my life, when I have things that make me angry all over again when something new-but-similar pops up, I have found that I really haven't let it go. I may have let the incident itself go, but I have not let the hurt, anger, feeling disrespected and unloved go. When a new similar incident comes back, so do all those old feelings.

I can't even begin to tell you how to let it go because it hurts you so bad that he would even consider going on these trips without you.

Two other things came to mind when I read this:

1. Your hubby didn�t immediately say �no� but his response to the guy who asked him also didn�t say �yes.� �H's response to the email was non-committal and didn't reference the invite at all.� I interpret that as a political/polite way of being noncommittal until he could make up his mind. I know that probably sounds crazy, because I�m the direct kind of person who will never say �yes� to something I already know I won�t do, but LOTS of people do this just to be polite. Especially if the last hunting trip was bad, and if this guy�s relationship might be good for business down the line.

2. If I�m hearing you right, it sounds like you aren�t happy with him just saying �thanks but no� because you want him to tack on something that honors you and reflects that you disapprove of such trips. I�m not a guy, but I think most guys would have a very hard time doing that because a) they don�t want to be rude or look less manly and b) your H does not appear to feel the same way you do about these trips (seeing as he takes so many of them). I�m honestly thinking your H had a good (though maybe not the best) response.


If I just read this most recent incident alone, without knowledge of the above, I would wonder why you�re so explosively angry over such a non-issue. He didn�t commit, and after you talked about it, he said he was going to tell the guy no.

My heart hurts for you, because it seems like you get so very frustrated over things you cannot control, and I have no concrete suggestions to help you.

Ugh, I forgot how totally depressing anniversary cards are...I would really like to be able to buy one of them that says, "You are my rock, you have always been there for me and loved me so thoroughly, etc..." They just make me cry. I did find an apt one, though; it's about dreams for the future and sharing and waking up every morning beside him for the rest of my life.

I've been thinking a lot about why it's important to me that he let this guy know the truth of the situation. I already know they talk about their marriages with each other (um, heard it!), so it's not like it would be a new topic of conversation, so that would lessen any awkwardness about bringing it up. I'm thinking of it like 'peer pressure', something that happened a lot with the old group of guys H worked with. The guys (mostly young, single, and childless) would talk about their adventures, and my H ended up feeling like he was missing out. So me and the children were villianized as the THINGS keeping him from THAT life, that big fun one everyone was talking about.

So, he knows I'm a no-go on hunting. Let me back up a second to last night...he said that he never told me about hunting because he didn't have any friends here who hunted, he'd gotten rid of his equipment when he moved here (he probably should have checked out the local culture and held onto it, lol), so it was a non-issue, and besides, "It's a guy thing so I wouldn't have talked about it with you anyway." (!!! Funny, I don't remember a whole lot of times that he started conversations about shopping and manicures in order to talk about 'girl things' with me, lol. I digress...)

Anyway, so he knows I'm a no-go on it, but he's engaging in conversations about it, and even though I know it's a DJ to predict the outcome, I do have it on pretty good authority of experience that the more he talks about it, the more he will want it, and then he will vilify me as keeping him from what he wants so much to the point where I'm dehumanized in his eyes. So it seems the best thing to do would be to avoid it, like an alcoholic would avoid friends who invited them to bars. kwim? An alcoholic can have friends who drink, but they have to be aware of the problem and be supportive...not encourage the alcoholic to drink. If this guy doesn't know the damage that may be brought from encouraging my H to go hunting, he won't know how to be supportive of our marriage. I would like for my H to surround himself with people who support our marriage, and avoid those who don't. I don't think this guy is unsupportive. I just think he doesn't know.

Does that make sense?

And the blows keep coming...

Just discovered that the event this weekend (the one that trumped our anniversary get-away he promised) involves professional cheerleaders. wth? Really? Can my H find a job that does NOT involve objectifying women? Happy effing anniversary to me. I'm going to go cry now.

That makes sense. AT the same time, though, it�s kinda out of your hands. The singles group at my church is mostly younger never-marrieds with no kids. They just don�t understand what I go through when it comes to rearing my son, and when they (even the guys) talk about future marriage they are soooooo far off the mark but I�ve given up trying to educate them. I will admit, even though I KNOW the swinging single life isn�t all that great, rather than say so and offend everyone I will beg out on account of my son.

I think the difference is in how he feels. Does he really feel like your family is keeping him from living the life he wants to live or is he just acting that way to go with the flow. And if it�s acting and it still bothers you (NOTHING wrong with that) does he understand that it bothers you (note, I didn�t ask had you told him, but does he understand).

Now if he really feels like you all are holding him back from a big, fun, life that�s a whole separate subject! When my marriage was crumbling, I will admit I made my hours longer and longer at work because coming home was so painful. Even to the point of picking up my son and bringing him to work with me. Being at work was so easy and less stressful. I was GOOD at work. At home all I got from my H were constant reminders that I was not GOOD.

Since your H appears to crave the success and admiration he gets from work, but either can�t figure out how to get that from you or isn�t willing to put forth the effort, I don�t know what to tell you if that�s the case (ie his eyes are fixed on what he�s missing out on). You are right that he would be better to surround himself with marriage-friendly, supportive, people. But how can you motivate that change? And how will you keep CWMI happy if he doesn�t?