Hello, all. It's been a while since I've been to the board because of out-of-town travel and other important diversions. I come back to see what's going on and read of Glenn. It saddens my heart to think of the loss sustained by Carol and the kids, but it also makes me realize that it is important for the rest of us to try to make things work and find happiness in life because we never know what will happen.<P>That really came home to roost last night during a conversation my W and I were having. Over the last two or three weeks, she has lavished attention and affection on me that rival our very early years in the marriage. I can see the love in her eyes when she looks at me and smiles or says "I love you". However, even with this, she still feels like she wants out of the marriage. She wants the freedom to do things with other people. I have told her many times that she can have that anytime she wants, but that for me there need to be some restrictions in what that contact entails. Things like no romantic emotional involvements and no sexual dalliances. She acknowledges that that isn't what she has in mind, but doesn't feel that I would take it very well. I have told her that she just needs to do it to find out what my reactions would be. She still won't try it because she has decided what my reaction will be. She also told me that she cannot feel "creative" around me, but doesn't know why.<P>I asked her that would she feel like staying in the marriage if all of the problems could be fixed and she stated she wasn't sure because she wasn't sure that any changes would take place. She told me that part of her wants to stay married and part wants to leave. During our conversation, it became apparent that the part that wants to leave is based on a lot of "I don't know"s. It's also apparent that she is torn because both desires(stay/go) are very strong, but the desire to go is at least slightly stronger at this point.<P>I tried the argument that "wouldn't it be a shame if these issues could be worked out to the happiness of both of us and we didn't at least try?". She agreed that that was true, but can't seem to commit to the time/effort needed to find out. The divorce process has been going on now for a couple of months and with no obstacles, could be final in 4-6 weeks. I want us to agree to stop this for some period of time(I have mentioned six months). She feels that I am trying to force what I want on her. I have told her that what I want is for us to be together for the rest of our lives and what I am offering is a compromise that will help her recognize change or lack of, but she doesn't see it that way. She's not getting exactly what she wants(she mentioned a legal separation), so therefore I am trying to enforce my will on her. At every stage of this mess, I have offered similar compromises and have been met with resistance that I'm trying to make her think the way I do or do things the way that I want.<P>She admits that she doesn't really know exactly what it is that she wants. She knows in general terms, more freedom(she can have this if she will just take it) and wants to feel creative again, but doesn't know for sure if it's me that causing the problem. I'm getting near my wit's end again. I've told her that if she really wants the divorce that I will understand and go along peacefully and do what I can, but she says she really doesn't want to split. On the other hand, she doesn't want to do anything at all to slow or stop it. I had mentioned three weeks ago that if by the first part of November we were doing much better and had substantial hope, that I would withdraw the divorce petition unless she disagreed. Her response was a very forceful "Don't I have any say in this?". Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't I mention the caveat about her agreement/disagreement?<P>I asked her a couple of weeks ago to talk to her lawyer about how they would agree to value the house so I could start the pre-approval process to buy her out. She asked me, "Are you in some kind of hurry to do this?". This came from a person who stated very plainly that "If I could make the divorce final tomorrow I would". Even though I am still trying, I am really beginning to feel that the situation is hopeless. I'm not as strong as some of you who continue to face daunting odds and situations that make mine pale by comparison, but that's just the way I am. I want to work on the marriage, but am getting tired of having the executioner holding the axe over my head(divorce). I used this analogy with W and she said she understood. <P>Our conversation last night contained both good and bad, but the openness was a positive. I just wish there was something else I could do.......<P>Anyway, I appreciate the fact that I can vent here and welcome any and all comments.

Heartpain,<BR>I know how you are feeling. When I thought we were getting a divorce, I was able to focus on things like you were. Now that we are in recovery(I think!) things are alot more hazy. We are in joint counseling but not spending much time to work on things.<P>That was the one thing our counselor did was have us set goals to work on. That is what you need to do if you can get your w to agree on them.<P>We are working on our communication and also trying to have more fun. Our third thing, her job, is more of my hang up that I'm starting to come to grips with.<P>Maybe just leave the divorce talk go, and work on Plan Aing your wife.<P>Best of Luck.

i just read your story, i'm glad you are venting. i have no witty or wise response. the times when i have felt those kind of feelings i try to remind myself to live, just live, and let the other person do whatever they need to. knowing what is "gonna happen" isn't going to change what i do this moment. i am going to do my best to live in the now. <BR>but can i say it? it is encouraging to me that there are men like you in the world who really love a woman and who are faithful and loyal. some moments i really wonder. thank you for sharing your heart.

RWD - You know, what is really confusing is that in a sense we are divorcing and in recovery at the same time. I appreciate your wise advice and for the most part I am in continuous Plan A. The reality is that I do have a lot of things that need to be done if we are going to divorce soon, so I just can't let them go completely. How I wish to say without conditions that we are "in recovery". We seem to be kinda in the same boat except that after I spent four months in an apartment, we do live together now. Good luck my friend.<P>neen - Thanks for the kind words. After reading your response, I'm sitting here at work with tears in my eyes and I want to cry. I love W with all of my heart and soul because for the most part she is deserving of that and more. I have always been faithful and loyal because of my love. God, I wish that made a difference with her. <P>I just read your profile and I realize that in comparison, I have it so much better than you. I wish I could take comfort in that.

Hi Heartpain<P>Sorry for your troubles. Seems your W is really stuck and scared on leaving. She wants to test the waters with you on the side line to pull her in if necessary. <P>Concentrate on your own life right now. Be strong and show confidence when you tell your W that you too want a divorce so that you can also explore. This will force your W into seeing you from a different light. Show no emotional dependance on your W. Tell her you love her but can not live like this. Marriage is about sacrifice for the better of each other. She is bent on leaving and she will only see you as an obsticle. Once you leave she is forced to see you as a loving/caring person.<P>By initiating the divorce and building your own life, this will build strength and character for yourself. See the world again from a "single" perspective. It may seem lonely but not for long. You are very knowledgable on relationships now and you have a better understanding of feelings then most people. If you glow with confidence and strength your W will be attracted to you. <P>You can not make a person love you, you can not make a person stay. You can not control a person period but you can make yourself a great person, irrisistable to others... Control what you can control.<P>Good Luck<BR>_____________________________________________<BR>"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"

Heartpain,<P>I know exactly how you feel. Nov will be 9 months since discovery, about 7 of which i've spent in Plan A. My W has stated on several occassions her desire to "be free", but has made little effort to act on her desires. She filed in late Sep and has looked at apartments, but in filing was told of certain restrictions the court would place on her living arrangements. These threw her a curve and she's made no further moves to find a place of her own. <P>I'm frustrated to say the least. While she is usually in a good mood (and why shouldn't she be since i pay the bills), she insists she is not interested in working on the marriage. We have not been initimate since Feb. No physical contact of any kind, yet we share a bed. Go figure. <P>This past Tues i asked her to be thinking if she wants to separate or proceed w/the D. We are to talk again tonight. I'm upset that she has delayed (we agreed in Sep that she would move out in 30 days) things until the holidays are upon us as we have two small children. Also, i'm getting tired of working Plan A with no effort shown by her. I'm now thinking alot more about what is good for me. I've told her i'll accept separation or D, whatever she wants, but i'm not willing to go on under the current circumstances. Of course i'd like her to stay and we work on the marrige, but she's rejected any such idea and says she doesn't love me only "cares about me."<P>Anyway, sorry to ramble, but i think Toronto has the right idea. I've begged, pleaded, and Plan A'd without success. It's time to show her i can make it on my own and can live with whatever decision she reaches. Life is too short and there's way too many fish in the sea to go on living like this. <P>I wish you all the best.

hp--i am a betrayer and was finally ready to do plan a come clean and try to work on rebuilding, i figured all this out over a long period of time, w wanted<BR>to separate for a few days which turned into 10 days and when i told her i was coming home to try to work it out i went with flowers in hand and was met by the process server and d papers...so you might call that plan b...we are in plan ab which i have heard discussed here and today we are going for a joint session first one...so we'll see ...the indecision is a killer just try to have the patience--from your post it sounds like a straight plan b might be more effective...also the replies were good..work on you it sounds like you already have....much peace and love ...trying hard

hp--i am a betrayer and was finally ready to do plan a come clean and try to work on rebuilding, i figured all this out over a long period of time, w wanted<BR>to separate for a few days which turned into 10 days and when i told her i was coming home to try to work it out i went with flowers in hand and was met by the process server and d papers...so you might call that plan b...we are in plan ab which i have heard discussed here and today we are going for a joint session first one...so we'll see ...the indecision is a killer just try to have the patience--from your post it sounds like a straight plan b might be more effective...also the replies were good..work on you it sounds like you already have....much peace and love ...trying hard

Toronto - I did initiate the divorce because during the time I was moved out so she could figure things out, she did absolutely nothing except enjoy being alone. As for telling her that I want the divorce, too, I think this would be playing right into her conflict-avoiding hands and it isn't really what I want.<P>I know I can't make her stay. I know that I can't make her do anything, but even though I tell her this, she continues with the accusations that I am.<P>nlitend - W isn't trying to use me in anyway except for some emotional security. I pay all of the bills and she continues to accumulate money in her checking account that she has indicated she believes is all hers for property settlement purposes. I have decided, let her keep it(even though it's a substantial amount).<P>I'm not going to play any games. If we proceed with the divorce, there will be no future for us at all as far as I am concerned. I have offered as much of my self as is humanly possible. If it's not enough to convince her to rebuild, then she will never see that from me again.<P>Trying hard - We separated for over four months and she was in exactly the same place as when I left. She didn't know what she wanted to do. It is very possible that she really does need a lot more time. That would just be another incompatibility between us. I will not go along with a legal separation as when she mentioned it last night, I indicated that I didn't like the idea since she would probably be exploring new emotional and sexual relationships and that wouldn't be the purpose. She didn't disagree with me. I kinda feel like "It's my way or the highway" and don't feel bad about being that way since "my way" has included nearly every possible compromise available.<P>We talked again at lunch. She seemed down so I asked her if there was residual negative feelings from last night. She said that that wasn't the case and she wasn't really angry with me, but that she was frustrated. Boy, can I understand that!!!<P>I still have hope, but it is fading very rapidly. We have another joint counseling session tonight, but these are getting to be a waste of time when she doesn't want to really work on things.