And this is a bad thing? See, this is the problem. ICs encourage independent behavior at the expense of the marriage. Of course you should be "codependent" if you want to have a great marriage. I am "codependent" and so are Dr and Mrs Harley. That is only a problem when you are married to an alcoholic/addict, because being interdependent ["co dependent"] can be a disaster when married to a destructive person. Not so when married to a normal.

This counselor is giving him marriage wrecking, silly advice:
How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages
by Willard F. Harley, Jr.


Barbie, can you not persuade your H to get on the phone with someone like Steve Harley? He might do wonders for your marriage and avoid all the garbage this IC is introducing into your marriage.

Oh hot dayahm! (sorry God!)

This article is great, I have not read it before. I have already sent his email a copy....

You see, at least now in "counseling" he will read and consider the content I read. Before he "knew it all".

At least now I can put this forth and he will read talk about it.

But his new "Catchphrase" is "healthy boundries". If I say anything that is too upsetting, I have crossed his "boundries" and he removes himself from the room/conversation/planet.

But you know something, I know it is not the counselors fault. He is a grown man who can make his descisions all for himself.
He brings back the info he wants.

She excuses online pornography (a release) dating sites (a sign someting is wrong in the marriage) --gee you think?

But he has quit having the angry outbursts at his family.

But I don't hear word one about accountability.

Yes, he is becoming a very selfish person, all the while using "healthy boundires" and other pop psycho terms to support his case.

He is willing now to at least read the MB items. He does not believe in everything, but at least he now listens.

Wow. I would not tolerate her either. Your current MC / IC sounds like mine as well. I don' think that those conselors are worth the dime. They do distract, and , as far as "boundaries" are concerned, I feel sorry for the author, as the whole "boundaries" connundrum was never meant for people to use in order to protect that which harms their loved ones (e.g. pornography & dating sites, etc..). It was MEANT to spur on accountabililty, and, like most things in life, people use, bend, twist & manipulate whatever they want to in order to benefit for their own gain.

It's a sick & twisted game. My father went to many IC's who were "Christian" or "God-fearing" who all told him the same things your post-modern hippie counselor is telling your H.

I am sorry you have to go through it. IC forces you to act independently as well. Good thing you can manipulate yourself into working on your marriage... hmm... what a concept!

I think as far as drawing lines with your H (I hate to use the word boundaries here, as it's been reduced to a negative cliche), is a smart thing to do, and needing to put down an effective plan regarding accountability. I have learned that, with anyone who is wayward, if they truly are uninterested in change, they will most definitely avoid all accountability plans & continue on defending their own cause. This will, inevitably leave you alone in marriage. This is where you following Dr.Harvey's plans (A & B, etc.) will become extremely important.

I hope you continue to read the articles here & seek out advice. I know how it is to have a spouse pull out the "boundaries" theme when they want to avoid talking with you, period, let alone defending the slop they wish to continue wallowing in.

There is hope for you, albeit a lonely road sometimes, but know that you are trying to do what is right, and MB's is all about fighting for what is right, true, and what was designed to be sanctified in God's eyes - marriage.

Hey, Barbiecat! Your situation sounds so frustrating! As a therapist myself, I have met a lot of, um, interesting, professionals out there! Many of whom I would not let counsel my pugs...
I have also had a lot of unhealthy (usually abusive) clients who would take great concepts and twist them for abusive puposes. Sometimes, people take from counseling new tools and use them to help them get their needs meet in unhealthy ways.
I'm not sure of your whole story, but I would suggest that you ask your MC to have a release of information with your husband's IC, so that she can have a better idea of what they are working on and ensure that it is congruent to your MC goals.
In DV treatment, we also had the clients sign a release for their partner, so the counselor could talk to you. If his personal recovery, as well as marital recovery is the goal, the more communication, the better.

I am really down about this situation today.

To tell the truth, I cannot really put any boundaries on what he does in IC at all. Nor really would I want to. If he is going to put IC over out M, it is his choice and I feel I have done what I could. Proir to this new IC, I have put up with years of fazes, (and of course, they all blame me as the primary fault.) He picks up one, drops another. It has been so long since he has acted in a manner that I admire, I don�t think I could recognize him if he did.

So this is not new behavior for him.
He also has in the past, only remembered the parts of therapy that are attractive to him.

So I disengage/detach when the psychobabble gets too thick. I also remind him the point of therapy is to GET OUT OF THERAPY.
He is going twice a week (and some nights meditation class - she is organiser of.) I just decided what my options really were- and chose to politely ignore this). But on the other hand I do not have to live with this influence on my life.

I seriously think detaching is the best way no to LB my husband.

psychobabble = bath tub time.
Lecturing = go for a ride
Entitlement/ superior attitude= I have errands

Our MC said outside learning is good, but we should provide info we are reading to each other.

He has never really shared much concrete information with me about what he is doing in IC. So my perception is going to be a speculation at best, because I have to decipher his �catch phrases�.

and

After reading the codependant book, I have decided that the style of therapy that the IC does really has a place for certain people, people who are in crisis and have little hope. (recovery)

So I will stop giving my rude opinion about her style.

But that does not mean I will accept that train of thought for my life.

Update;

I am still having problems "connecting" on any level with my H.

Mind you, he is still in "co dependant" counseling, he thinks he is doing GREAT. (He has told me he is cured of anger)

Apparently, our relationship problems (including his anger issues) only were because I cross healthy boundaries. Yes, he says he has made mistakes, but will not tell me what they are--
and he takes responsibility, but he will not say what for.

I just feel like giving up. I know that MB really requires the two people to be on the same page, very committed to interdependence -- and my husband (and his IC) just feels differently.

Before you start, do not point out to me that I have been here for years, I know it more than anyone.

He is still seeing the co-dependent counselor, and to tell the truth, he really likes her and feels he is doing the right thing for himself.

We are not having issues with alcohol or drugs, and there is no abuse (of any kind) going on in the home. � (Besides arguing which can be abusive in itself, I know.)

I do not agree that the co-dependant theory (I know it has saved a lot of people) is helping my marriage. It is making him a more selfish, "independant person" - this is supposed to be a good thing. I do not find this attractive in the least (like the books say I should - Men LEAD and women will fall all over you to follow.)

For example;

He is acting indifferent if we stay together or not. I will say do you want a separation, he says �If you want to�� It is infuriating and very hard not to LB.
This makes me feel insecure and more anxious and sad. I yell, ignore and cry, (believe me, I could AND HAVE fill his love bank till the cows come home, he would find a fault� and point to it a lot)
Asked if he cares if we stay together or separate, he says �if you want to�. He shrugs and walks off
I have a slight feeling he enjoys this control, which does not bode well for a MB type relationship.

Due to his �healthy boundaries�, he feels he can list my sins at random- if I agree or not � that is it, my points are not even considered.

When he has decided that he has �had enough� he leaves, because �I have stepped over his healthy boundraies� (seriously, I feel like if anything is said in a fashion that he does not like - I am automatically the �boundary breaker�.)

Before you ask, No- he is not worried what MY "healthy boundaries" are.

Dr. Harley agrees with you:

How the Co-dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages

I am sure people here have been in similar situations. Co-dependency is a very popular form of IC, and I can't be the only one in this position.

I have told my H about MB. I have sent him the packets. He says he is "all for it". He is all about his love bank being filled, and I feel he is all for getting his needs met.

He does not see any conflict in the two philosophies. You can not to MB coming from a place of selfishness and independant thinking.

In my opinion, this type of counseling justifies disrespectful judgemtents and selfish behavior- and it gives excuses to ignore the needs of your spouse.

"only you can make you happy"
"I have nothing to do with your happiness"

bullchit, bullchit and blah. At one point I almost accepted that there was something wrong with me, and it was my H's set up of "healthy boundaries" that was the issue.

HOW can someone be so (for lack of a better term) self deluded?

How do you combine the two?

Barbie, I agree your H's IC is working against your marriage, but it's not hopeless. Have you seen my sig line? I couldn't make it work, but I'd like to thinks that folks can, and since you're here, I'd like to help you try. I think if you start disengaging in the power struggles, and start spending 15-20+ hours a week doing fun things together, you two will grow in mutual care, consideration, and thoughtfulness. He'll experience how in a good marriage, that not only are you *not* crossing his "healthy boundaries," but rather you are well worth trusting to defend them.


What is fun about saying this? I know you guys must have some fun, light things to talk about. Do you guys have an intimate physical relationship? I would think that kind of bonding would be a great antidote to those insecure feelings. What do you think?

barbiecat, your H is what Dr Harley calls a freeloader.


If I were you, I would follow Dr Harley's guidelines in When to Call it Quits. That woman ended up turning her marriage around completely using his suggestions. here

Thanks for the reply.
Apparently we can not talk about the relationship at all. 25 years....

We can be having a pretty good time doing something just fine, and then he starts explaining his "I am the boundry setter...you are the rude person who does not/can not understand what that is".
This sets up that he is the "all knowing, rule setter, and I am the somewhat lacking partner".

His very attitude about recovery is what is antagonising.
He is going to lead -- and I will follow... or I will be left behind.
Domestically, I have been in complete charge (along with doing all the work part, too) for 20+ years.

He would like to set up some rules, and gets furious if things do not go his way.

I am not the "train me" type of person.

Well...update.

Things have been going a little better. My H sent me "the policy of joint agreement" and asked "Can we do this?"

This sounds well and good, but he is still trying to cherry pick his way through MB.

He is still in IC counseling, and he considers it positive. I think it does not jive with MB concepts.

He beleives he is "cured". I am still unbelieveably uncomfortable with his attitude tword marriage.

He says he is "here" for the marriage, but he considers "putting himself first" as his top priority.

Through his IC, they have labeled this behavior as "boundary setting". Which, although sounds good... I beleive it can be construed as a way to neglect your partners needs.

I am still not on listed on his bank accounts. He is setting a "boundary for budgeting" --

We had a breakthrough on a former problem, tho. He has vistied dating sites in the past. (busted by computer)
He says he takes responsibility... BUT (I believe this comes from his counseling) He did it BECAUSE I did this or that. Or he did it because he was "lonely".

I think his IC provides him with not only excuses, but that he is "right" in his beliefs.

I told him he has to take responsibility for his own actions, that explaining himself only looks like he is NOT taking responsibility and blaming me for his choices.

He refuses to even consider my opinion on this, but believes he is making "healthy" choices by doing do.
At couseling last week out MC picked up on this -(his explaning away the reasons he does things)... and she pointed it out. -- without any input from me.

He did not like it, but I hope he heard it.

I am still at a loss.

I would stop lecturing him, Barbie. And I would EMBRACE his offer to use the POJA. This is the answer to your marriage problems. Just think, Barbie, he would stop doing things that make you so unhappy. The bank account issue would have to be negotiated, the IC, everything. START SMALL and then allow this work up to the tougher issues. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Do you have all the information about the POJA? We can help you with this, but it is the solution to your marriage problems.

Once he begins to see the benefits of POJA and fully understands it, he will have to recognize how ridiculous it is to have "boundaries." There can be no boundaries, except in the case of abuse. But you need to EVOLVE to that place.

We do quite a bit better with things like POJA.

I know I am 180 from where I used to be (thinking about running the house, buying things and the like).

If this is an evolution, we are still not walking upright yet.

That's not taking responsibility for his own actions. That is classic "blame the victim" mentality.

Does he think an abuser is justified in beating his wife if she burns the toast? Ask him what he thinks of that.

OK.

My MIL is up from Florida for the summer. We have never been close, but I do care for her- She is 82 now.

Tonight is her birthday, we are going down for dinner and cake,I will see her tomorrow, I am throwing a double (tripple with her) birthday party for 25 people.

I found out my H's brother is going to be there. I have issues with him. He has not only advised, but loaned my H money to divorce. I do not consider him a friend to me, my marriage - or my children.
For 20 years I have been hospitable and polite to this guy and his family. He is a former (?) cheater, now divorced/remarried.
Tho my husband "reconsidered" his (line in the sand threats) divorce actions the next day,

I don't want anything to do with this chump.

I like and miss my MIL, do not want to hurt her feelings, but why would I want to spend an eve looking at his "big bro's" mug?
I bought a gift/card
wrapped it.
Made from scratch a chocolate/hazelnut/sourcream and rasberry filled cake - for her on Sat.
I don't mind if my husband and daughter go down there tonight..

I am hurt that my H does not think of the consequences that are left for me. He wants me to "get over it".

He is upset that I do not want his brother(s) at any function -- and boy, do we entertain.
Am I wrong for not shaking this off?

Back in the day, 13 years ago, this bro was going thru a terrible divorce and indicated something - I believe inappropriate to me, I told my husband at the time, we chalked it up to "divorce" and poor judgenent and forgot it.

or I did until the money loan. Not that it is an issue now, he has never said or done anything "creeper" since, it bugs the he(( outa me.

should I stay or should I go?

Awesome!!! This is the first step. I am dancing with joy for you guys!


We all do, at first. Every single one of us. It takes awhile.


I know. The solution to neglect, though, is you can negotiate to find ways he can meet your needs that he will enjoy. This will not happen all at once. But with the POJA as your guide, you can get there.

I'd tell this man yes and heap praise and admiration on him for suggesting it!

Start small, Barbie. Don't tackle the big stuff until you have greater skills at tackling the small stuff. My H and I had a huge fight in the grocery store just learning to negotiate grocery choices.

Can you persuade your H to sign up for the online course?