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From the point of view of a FWW, I'd say the one thing you have to have at this point is a SOLID commitment of NC from her. Have her write the letter as Dr. Harley suggests so you two can see it in black and white. You can not go anywhere without this. I am pretty sure she is not through the withdrawal from her "drug" yet, and she may be "holding out" for OM. Be there for her and allow her to confide in you, if she wants, how she's feeling. Just hold her if she needs that, as she traverses through the stages of loss. I was left with no closure, either, and just had to decide that it didn't matter. The NCL IS closure. Without total commitment to NC, she may find herself in a perpetual state of A-withdrawal, which is mighty painful for everyone.
What I say next is just my opinion, I'm not a counsellor by any means.
You can pull her out of withdrawal, but you can't push her out of withdrawal. That is, be a magnet (no love busters, do you have that book?). Every day that you wake up with her next to you is another day closer to a better marriage when using the MB plan.


xFWW(me)-48
Married-14 years
D-Day~23-May-11
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Lifetime...thanks for the advice. Here is where i am stuck. She wont commit to 100% NC right now, and i informed her that i would stay in this marriage without that. She then says if i cant give her more time time, then she understands and does not blame me if i leave or file for divorce.

So do i give her an ultimatum and a deadline, and let her know that i will ne filing for divorce at that time? How have other waywards been convinced to agree to NC while in withdrawal? I am 100% convinced she is in withdrawal. So is it recommended that i give her a deadline to agree, and if she does not then i go ahead and file? It really sucks right now...i thought i was supposed to be in Plan A, which i never got a chance to do I guess.


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
PA 1-1/2 yrs...WW exposed to OMW on 4/28/11
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jack, she won't commit unless she has to and I think you believe that she will magically come around in 3 months. But hope is not a plan. She will not draw closer to MB unless there is a PLAN. She is currently floating around in la-la land and leading your marriage further into a ditch. And there is no magic that will save your marriage. The longer this condition goes on, the more entrenched her wayward mindset and the more evidence she has that you really don't care very much.

And I don't believe you do care very much. You have convinced me that you are more committed to avoiding conflict than you are to your marriage. You are not willing to fight for your marriage, after all. You will accept it on the most crippled terms.

I can see you are trying to convince yourself that waiting is advantageous, but I would strongly suggest you rethink that strategy. Giving this more "time" is nothing more than conflict avoidance and that hurts your marriage rather than helps it.

The folks on this thread, SusieQ, Neverguessed, me are in recovered marriages and have long experience in recovering their marriages. Do you want what we have? We didn't get there via conflict avoiding.

The time for Plan A is over, friend. Plan A was not meant to be a way of life for conflict avoiders.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
Lifetime...thanks for the advice. Here is where i am stuck. She wont commit to 100% NC right now, and i informed her that i would stay in this marriage without that. She then says if i cant give her more time time, then she understands and does not blame me if i leave or file for divorce.

Jack, I would ask her to leave. If she can't commit to your conditions, that are simply measures designed to protect you, I would ask her to make arrangements to find another place to live. You should not be the one to leave since she is the one who had an affair. In many states, you can file on grounds of adultery and get possession of the home and primary custody of the children.

I would be painting that kind of picture NOW. Make it as ugly as possible up to and including dragging the OM into court to give testimony under oath about his affair.

Doing this will help dispel any fantasy notions she has about an easy future with the OM.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Melody-unfortunately we are in a no fault state, so that won't help me as much as it would in other states.


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
PA 1-1/2 yrs...WW exposed to OMW on 4/28/11
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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
Melody-unfortunately we are in a no fault state, so that won't help me as much as it would in other states.

Are you sure? Because some states are no-fault and it DOES matter. For example, even though Texas is no-fault, adultery is taken into account in divorce cases. I would check with an attorney.

My point is that you make sure she understands you won't make it easy, you will make it HARD. And she needs to be told that you won't be her "friend." This is another fantasy of waywards, that they can destroy their marriages and keep the BS as a "friend." Interestingly, when told this won't be the case, they very often have second thoughts about dismantling the marriage.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Jack,
Listen to Melodylane, you are afraid to push her away but you cannot let that affair continue.......
You need to take a stand and fight for your marriage and what is yours, even if she leaves right now, she will be forced to make the decision she needs to make, that fantasy will have to become real and the affair partners have never really thought that through with a solid plan, expectations will take over and I'm guessing they might not be the same for each of them, let it fall apart for the very reasons it would never work, don't be afraid, you won't lose her in the long haul, maybe in the short term, she will be mad, so what ..............
She is trying to control the situation take that away from her in a firm calm manner...............
Tell her this is not the kind of marriage you want anymore.........
Tell her it either changes or you will call it quits.......make her do the work she should be........
good luck, we are all here for you, jessi


BW 56
WH 57
Married 25 years, live together for 2, dated 2 years before that.....
DS 23, DS 25
D-Day Nov 23/09
NC Mar 1/10
Working on Recovery
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Take back control of your marriage, Jack. What your marriage needs right now is a leader to lead it out of the ditch. You are allowing yourself to be driven by fear.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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It is definitely a no fault state, i have a friend that is a family law attorney. Besides, I did have an affair as well prior to hers.

So now the question is this...how to get her to leave? She does not work and has no money for a place, and her family is out of state. We don't have the money to get her into a place of her own either. I guess it was always assumed that if anyone left it would be me,like I did three years ago. We briefly discussed this yesterday and she said "remember, it was you that walked out on your wife and family three years ago...and for what?" This is 100% true. I did that exact thing three years ago. Am I still struggling with the guilt of that, and that is why I am afraid to stir things up too much right now.

Lastly, I want the LEAST impact possible on the children. She never told them what I did three years ago, and I know she would never bad mouth me to the kids. The kids see us fight some, but nothing major, so it is not like they are living in a home with nothing but anger around them.


Lastly, and kind of off topic, but I work two jobs so I am usually not home about three nights a week. I have been working two jobs for a little over three years (right before my A started). The reason for two jobs is because I was part owner of a business and about 4 years ago made some stupid decisions that put us in a bad spot financially. This was where and when most of our problems started. But my question is this, is me being away those three nights a week hurting our marriage?


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
PA 1-1/2 yrs...WW exposed to OMW on 4/28/11
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Melody, i agree with what you are saying, i am just having a hard time deciphering everything i have read on here. I see people talking about being in Plan A for months...does that mean they allow the A to continue? You also said you were not patient enough for Plan A didnt you?

One of the first things I learned on here is to not make any quick decisions, and not to pay too much attention to what the WW says in the early stages and to not get too hung up on what they are saying because they are basically incoherent to a certain extent.

I have also read that men can endure Plan A for up to six months...does this mean they dont make their WW end the A and they sit and try to make it better for that period? I know I cant last much longer like it is, but do I give her an ultimatum between signing a NC letter or divorce?

It is not that i am avoiding conflict, i just happen to be the type who over analyzes things.


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
PA 1-1/2 yrs...WW exposed to OMW on 4/28/11
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First off, your affair has nothing to do with the present. Even if you lived in a fault state it could have no bearing because it is in the past and you didn't split up over it. You can't use a 3 year old affair as grounds for a divorce.

As far as her leaving, she would need to figure that out herself. Its not like she is a child who cannot fend for herself. Tell her she will need to figure this out on her own and plan to go back to work and support herself. You won't be supporting her if you get divorced, of course. It is important to drive home this point with her. Divorced women cannot expect to be supported by their X-husbands.

All of these logistics can be figured out in the future, though. First things first.

She should be confronted with your conditions to remain in the marriage. Tell her what it will take and let her know that if she rejects them, this will lead to divorce with you filing for divorce and full possession of the house and primary custody of the children, because she cannot support them or afford the mortgage.

She won't believe you at first so it will take a few days to convince her you are serious. [go read SusieQ's description of her sister NotSure's experience - her WH threatened and ranted and raved for a couple days - SHE DID NOT FLINCH - and then when he saw that his smoke and mirrors wouldn't work, he relented and agreed to her conditions] I predict she will do the same becuase she is not used to YOU being in control. She is used to being fully in control and being able to push you around, so you can't flinch here.

Your guilt about your past affair is very distracting and is harming you today. That needs to be left in the past. Your affair does not entitle her to an affair. You ended your affair and made amends to her. It doesn't make sense to sacrifice your marriage TODAY just because you made a mistake in the past. If anything, you should be MORE diligent in saving your marriage, rather than taking an ENABLING approach.

There is nothing loving about enabling.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
Melody, i agree with what you are saying, i am just having a hard time deciphering everything i have read on here. I see people talking about being in Plan A for months...does that mean they allow the A to continue? You also said you were not patient enough for Plan A didnt you?

One of the first things I learned on here is to not make any quick decisions, and not to pay too much attention to what the WW says in the early stages and to not get too hung up on what they are saying because they are basically incoherent to a certain extent.

"Not making quick decisions" is code for CONFLICT AVOIDER. Lets get real here, my friend. That is an excuse to not take steps to save your marriage. If you want to use me as an example, I would point out that my marriage is recovered. Yours is not.

Quote
I have also read that men can endure Plan A for up to six months...does this mean they dont make their WW end the A and they sit and try to make it better for that period?

Again, Plan A is for an ongoing affair. It is not supposed to be a way of life for conflict avoiders. I get the sense that you are so reluctant to take any action that you would HOPE for a continued affair so you don't have to do anything. Hiding behind Plan A will not help you.

But again, that is your prerogative. It is your right to do nothing. And it is my right to move onto other posters who are serious about saving their marriages. I wish you the best.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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JITB, you are treating your wife's unemployed status as your LIABILITY when it should be your greatest ASSET.

CUT HER OFF, FINANCIALLY.

Isolate your earnings to accounts to which only you have access. Cancel all credit cards she has. Handle all domestic payments yourself. Pull the plates off any vehicles that she uses. Give her ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the way of funds and support.

She will scream. She will tantrum. She will accuse you of the most awful treatment of her sorry, cheating azz. You will smile. You will be calm. You will remind her that when you do file for divorce and throw her out, this treatment will seem kind and charitable compared to what she will be facing after you fight her every step of the way through the divorce decree.

I mentioned earlier you have been trained as a typical de-nutted American male not to fight. Your re-education starts now.

Remember, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs.

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Neverguessed...i was thinking the same thing, but i need to talk to an attorney first and see if that is acceptable in this state...i work two jobs so she does not have to work and can stay home and raise the kids. Well the kids are both in school now, and we know what she has been doing all day while i am at work.

The one fear i have is that my kids might freak out and end up hating me for being so cruel...unless they are aware if everything, even what i did three years ago...and then they will say "daddy how could you have just left us, dont yoi love us."

For most people that go to this extreme, does the WS usually come around before divorce papers are actually filed...is it a wakeup call?

OM could not support her even if they ended up together since he doea not work...he would be getting alimony from his wife.


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
PA 1-1/2 yrs...WW exposed to OMW on 4/28/11
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they will say "daddy how could you have just left us, dont you love us."

Where do you get this "daddy leaving" nonsense? You're not going anywhere. You're staying right there at home and treating your wife like the lady she is - just poorer.

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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
...She then says if i cant give her more time time, then she understands and does not blame me if i leave or file for divorce...
Code for "I am holding out for someone else or something better."
Let her know that you want a fantastic marriage WITH HER and that you know it can be, but first there can be no contact with OM. It is just possible that she is waiting for you to make a stand for her and your marriage and she'd react differently to your insistence on NC than you think. NC is the only way your marriage can become the best. You'll either continue to live in this limbo, making it harder and harder to restore your marriage, or you start to get to work. But still, it's your choice. NC is not a hasty decision, divorce is. Oh, and since you told her you'd stay while waiting for her, you just turned Plan A into what they call "Plan Doormat." All of this is just my 0.02 worth.�


xFWW(me)-48
Married-14 years
D-Day~23-May-11
NC- 14-Apr-11
1 DS 15
Online course July '11 to July '12
17 sessions with S. Harley Feb '12 to Sep '12
Divorced Jan 21, 2013
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Jack, did your marriage begin as an affair?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Melody,

Our marriage did NOT begin as an affair. We met and dated for almost three years for before getting married.

I am waiting to hear back from an attorney friend to get advice on what I should or should not do as far as asking her to leave if she does not agree with my "rules" as far as our marriage goes.

This is all new to me. My thought right now is that I will hand her two sets of papers. The first will be a NC letter for her to sign in front of me and we can mail to OM together (or I will mail it). The second set will be dissolution of marriage papers, which will be filed in the event she decides not to agree to sign the NC letter.

Once I give her these papers, is it recommended that I give her a deadline as to the signing of the NC letter before I file for divorce. You mentioned that NotSure's H raised hell for a few days then came around when he saw that she was not budging. I am assuming she gave him some time?

I will also try and see if I can find that post to read.

Thanks again Melody for all of your advice. I appreciate the fact that you don't sugarcoat things. Sometimes I need a good slap in the face to get off the fence (not literally).


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
PA 1-1/2 yrs...WW exposed to OMW on 4/28/11
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 53
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Originally Posted by jessitaylor
Hi Jackinthebox,

I am a BS as well, I will tell you when I found out about the Ow in my husband's life it was a road I didn't want to travel either.....
I am impatient and I didn't like fixing things right away...........
My husband for 4 months told me he loved his OW, but he spent all his time with me, every night, every weekend, he never went anywhere without me........
He said he still loved me but couldn't just flip a switch, so I just listened and made our lives and our home the safe place for him to hide out in.......Exposure was rough for him, the OW's husband didn't have any compassion, it was a work place affair so his work life and the exposure hit hard.........
He also told me he wanted me to give him time .......I was proactive, and took care of the separation agreement, the finances he was free to go...........
After about 2 months he started to change, he started to fix things around the house, he started to say I'll have to come back and take care of that and this, slowly he reconnected with me, he would sit beside me on the couch watching tv telling me how sorry he was that he had chosen what he had.........
I would only text and email things like are you Okay today and we would discuss the supper plans or the boys.........and I would end it with I will see you soon........
I would always send a text thanking him for something he had taken care of for me........
My role in this was being a safe place to be, to give him the freedom to chose, and to be patient while he worked things out in his head........
My husband was never affectionate either, this was a big complaint of mine, he started to give me a hug when he left for work, when he returned and before went to bed..............
At first it was a couple of seconds, then a few minutes and tears from him.....and usually and apology...........it is all a process with little changes every day, it took 4 months for the fog thinking to go away and once it did he has never turned back from making this the best marriage I could imagine, Jack I thought we were finished the first few months.............We don't know what they are really thinking or how disappointed they are with themselves...........let her process, if she wanted to be gone she would be..............
Always look good, smell good, and treat her with respect.........she will soon realize which one is the better choice and the one that treated her with respect......
It is a long haul Jack, put your patient hat on..............the payoff will be wonderful.
jessi
Jessi,

You say your H told you for four months that he loved the OW. Did he agree to NC right away? You also said that you made your home a safe place for him to be. It sounds like you were in Plan A for about four months, even though the A was over.

Thanks,
Jack


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
PA 1-1/2 yrs...WW exposed to OMW on 4/28/11
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 53
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Originally Posted by NeverGuessed
they will say "daddy how could you have just left us, dont you love us."

Where do you get this "daddy leaving" nonsense? You're not going anywhere. You're staying right there at home and treating your wife like the lady she is - just poorer.

NG - I said that "daddy leaving" referring to when I walked out on my family three years ago. I came back after a month, and my wife did what she thought she had to do at the time to keep our family together. My kids were 6 and 9 at the time I left, and my wife never told them what I did, but they do remember me leaving for a short period of time, even though I still came by the house almost every day. When I think back to what I put my wife through, I get sick to my stomach. I put her through WAY worse than what I am going through right now. BUT, something in my head clicked and I realized that home with my family is where I needed to be.

Looking back, I guess my wife was Plan A'ing her butt off on her own.


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
PA 1-1/2 yrs...WW exposed to OMW on 4/28/11
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