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Jack,

Once you get answers to all of your Qs, and you move into R, then, yes, you are supposed to stop talking about problems of the past (the A) ~ it's an enemy of good conversation, makes LB$ withdrawals and it's a point that Dr Harley has made repeatedly.

That's kinda part of the reason that you should get your recovery on track and not linger in Plan A for months with all these unresolved issues.

Did you have the talk with your WW about what you need her to commit to??

Last edited by SusieQ; 06/07/11 09:33 AM.

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Susie,

I did not talk with her about any of that yesterday, although we did discuss it over the weekend, and none of that went very well...but part of that was me asking the same questions over and over, just to see if I was still going to get the same answer. I am not sure why, but this weekend was bad for me and I just felt like I was losing it, but I am much better now.

I am not going to discuss any of the details for the next couple of days because it is my daughter's birthday, and this one is kind of special for her, and I don't want to ruin it. Besides, this gives me a couple more days to get my head clear before approaching her with my plan for recovery. In addition, I work two jobs so there are a couple of days during the week that I only see everyone for about 1/2 hour in between jobs, then right before bed when I get home.

If she goes back to work, I don't need to work the second job, and I think that will help tremendously because we will be able to spend more time together.

The last week or so has been really tough because I am covering for someone for my second job and worked four nights straight...leaving us NO time together. I never work that much, so it would have been a strain even under normal circumstances.


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
She has told me before that she starts to move forward, then I start bombarding her with questions and it brings her right back into it and brings her down...

She's punishing you for getting upset about her affair.

Nip this in the bud, Jack. Present your conditions and get over this hill. If not, you'll be staring at this for a long time to come.

My prediction-- she'll raise holy hell, bring up past misdeeds and rant and rave trying to get you to either concede or sweep it under the rug. If you hold firm, I bet she'll give in and the two of you can then really start to recover this.

But you've got to pull the trigger on this. Life happens and always allows excuses for why we cannot do things. Just get it over with, no waiting for the perfect time or when things are less hectic.


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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
We have talked in the last couple of days about some of this, and I had told her that I would not stay with her if she did not agree to NC with OM. Her reply was that she did not plan on contacting OM, but she did not want to make that promise until she decided whether she wanted to work on things with us...which according to her is a whole separate issue.

They're not mutually exclusive and she's just deflecting. Tell her to cut the crap and make up her mind now.

Enough of this, wouldn't you say?

I've been here before, heard the EXACT same spiel from my wife.


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jack, agree with NW.

We KNOW what conflict avoiding looks like and that's exactly what you are doing. Stop dragging your feet and get this done.


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Jack your getting great advise here. Use it. M is about commitment and her excuses to get away from that commitment don't cut it. You have to take decisive action and understand that the consequences may be plan B and ultimately plan D. But that line in the sand has to be your ultimatum's and her choice either to agree or disagree with. Make her chose Jack.
What you are asking her to do is fairly simple.
1) NC for life to the OM
2) A plan of recovery developed by a PHD MC that specializes in Marital recovery after an affair. (Maybe tell her that IF after 90 days she doesn't see improvements that you can try something else)
Thats really all that needs to be decided at this point. Present it simply, swiftly and kindly and give her a few days to digest it without allot of "talk". Tell her you want her decision Friday after dinner. Then ask her if she would like to go for a walk. Carrot/Stick. Until Friday after dinner be affectionate and embrace her with pleasant conversation. Encourage her in her job seeking. Admire her for her hard work. Then Friday get a decision. But conflict avoidance is not the route you need to take. M is full of conflict, its how you handle it thats important. Anything less than making her make a choice is plan doormat. As melody often says its like dieing a death of 1000 cuts. I would rather fall on the sword myself and get it over with. This laying of the conditions should take 45 seconds or so to communicate it to her.
Now if Friday after Dinner she balks and moans, YOU have to man up and chose for yourself to either plan B or plan doormat. Know that by what you have described as her actions I have witnessed first hand. IF you hold your ground she will agree.
Ok then what do we do next? Quit talking so much about relationship. Start filling her needs up (you know the affection and conversation thing) Set a few "dedicated hours by to read SSA together because she agreed to it". BABY STEPS. Its a marathon not a race.


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Originally Posted by Hilsmonemoretime
YOU have to man up and chose for yourself to either plan B or plan doormat. Know that by what you have described as her actions I have witnessed first hand. IF you hold your ground she will agree.
Ok then what do we do next? Quit talking so much about relationship. Start filling her needs up (you know the affection and conversation thing) Set a few "dedicated hours by to read SSA together because she agreed to it". BABY STEPS. Its a marathon not a race.

Agreed. First things first-- the terms and conditions and THEN the hard work (EN's, etc). Doing it the other way around is just sweeping it under the rug and not addressing it. As difficult as it is to do, you'll be glad you did and will recognize the difference between "kind of" and "actually" recovering your marriage.


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Okay...I feel I made some progress today. I have been pretty much leaving her alone and she asked me to help her with getting her resumes out to potential employers.

I am not even sure how we got on the subject, but she said she did not want to discuss anything today and was trying to move forward and not keep thinking about it (affair and OM). I told her that as long as she left that door open just a little crack, she would never get past this.

I then told her the same thing I have been telling her all along, is that I want a commitment from her that she will not contact him at all in any way. For the first time she replied "Fine, I won't." Up until now she has not answered that question. She has also made it a point not to tell me what I want to hear just to shut me up...quite the opposite. I asked her if she was saying it to make me happy and shut me up and she said "no". Now do I believe her 100%...not real sure. But seeing how I blocked his number from her phone yesterday (she does not know this) I will certainly find out if she tries. And his wife is home for the summer now and they are NEVER apart. Plus my wife is home with both kids. And I know his wife is watching him like a hawk. I think she realizes that with all that has been done with the exposure, and now that their opportunities have been removed for three months, she would be holding on for nothing.

So do I still get her to do the NC letter? Either way there is no guarantee...but at least it is better than three days ago when she refused to agree to no contact.


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
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Yep NC letter is still a must as is the Plan agreement. But good for you on making a little forward progress. Thats how its done, a little at a time. Hit her up with the terms this afternoon if you can and as I said before make it swift so your not "talking" about "it". Then help with that Resume and drop it for now. wink Keep the snoop on!


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Ok, I see you are no closer to a resolution than you were last week. There is no plan here. She still has no idea about your conditions. She is still in complete control of your marriage.

You are just fiddling around the edges, Jack.

Half measures will avail you nothing. In addition, one of your conditions HAS TO BE that she answers every question about the affair to your satisfaction. Once she satisfies you, then you never bring it up again.

An affair is not something you can sweep under the rug. You have to accept that you will have to step outside of your comfort zone to make this work. Stop focusing on avoiding conflict and focus on your MARRIAGE, my friend.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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How will she know about your conditions if you don't tell her?

How will your marriage recover without a plan of recovery? There is no plan here. Nothing.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
For the first time she replied "Fine, I won't."

Dropping the "fine" would have changed the meaning of that response, wouldn't you say?

Originally Posted by jackinthebox
I asked her if she was saying it to make me happy and shut me up and she said "no".

Do you think she would have said "yes" and then had to hear you talk more about it? No. She took the easy way out like a child would do. You have kids, right? I'm sure you could draw a parallel when "fine" prefaced one of their responses.

Originally Posted by jackinthebox
Now do I believe her 100%...not real sure.

There you go.

Originally Posted by jackinthebox
But seeing how I blocked his number from her phone yesterday (she does not know this) I will certainly find out if she tries. And his wife is home for the summer now and they are NEVER apart. Plus my wife is home with both kids. And I know his wife is watching him like a hawk.

All good things.

Originally Posted by jackinthebox
I think she realizes that with all that has been done with the exposure, and now that their opportunities have been removed for three months, she would be holding on for nothing.

I would hesitate to count on her being rational here. Granted, there's not a whole lot you can do if she really wants to talk to this guy, but you CAN let her know what the consequences will be if she does go down that road.

Originally Posted by jackinthebox
So do I still get her to do the NC letter? Either way there is no guarantee...but at least it is better than three days ago when she refused to agree to no contact.

You're right, there's no guarantee and it probably won't be worth the paper it is written on. But I'd do it anyways (along with your other list of conditions).

And you have to truly mean it when you give her those conditions.


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Oh I definitely still plan on laying out all of the conditions just as I had planned on doing before. Nothing has changed there. And I will still make her sign a NC letter. She did send me another text and explained more that she was agreeing to NC because she wants to move past this and move on with our lives.

It will also be clearly stated in my list of conditions the consequences of her contacting OM in the future.

Lastly, in the first few days after this broke, I found out more details about the A than I ever wanted to know. I asked tons of questions, and she answered them all...too honestly in my opinion. I asked why she was telling me so much and she said she wanted to hear it from me, and not from OM or OMW. If she was holding back on anything, I can't imagine what it would have been...but I think that was helpful, because as much as it hurt to hear it at the time, I have thought about it very little since then...if I did not know all of the details, I would always be wondering. I believe I read somewhere that couples that divulge the most details of the A have a better chance of recovery?

Anyway, none of our conversations since then have been about the A itself, they have all been about her reluctance to agree to NC with OM. Every single one of them.

I also agree that if the work "fine" had not been there, I would have gone with it...but she did come back to me and explain why she is agreeing to this now.


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
Oh I definitely still plan on laying out all of the conditions just as I had planned on doing before. Nothing has changed there. And I will still make her sign a NC letter. She did send me another text and explained more that she was agreeing to NC because she wants to move past this and move on with our lives.

I would tell her how to move on with this. She apparently wants to sweep this under the rug. And the longer you drag your feet, the harder it will be. This discussion above would have been the perfect seque into this discussion. I would do this TODAY, Jack. Dragging your feet just gives her the impression that you dont care very much and are going along with HER program to sweep this under the rug.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Yes reluctant unrepentant sweeping under the rug waywardness needs to be met with a bullheaded bring it on spouse.
You cant move forward till this is done Jack. Relationship talks are chosen battles. Chose them wisely. The rest of your life depends on it.


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Not sure how to link to my original post, so I will give a quick recap. Been married almost 20 years and have two DD, 13 and 9. I had a brief A about 3 years ago with coworker (lasted less than a month). She quit her job and there has been NC since. Moving ahead, found out about a month and a half ago that WW has been involved with POSOM in what started as EA and became PA and lasted about a year and a half. This was with the husband of a family that we were good friends and our kids played together, we have vacationed together, etc. Anyway, the OMW was involved in DDay and I have spoken with her so I know that she knows everything. There is NC between WW and OM.

Here is the problem we are facing now. WW feels that if we move forward, that I will never trust her and eventually anger and resentment will set in, and she feels I will leave at that time. She thinks I just want to keep the family together right now because I am in shock and don�t want to disrupt things. I am sure that is partly true, but I know what I did before and I was given another chance. WW basically is saying that she feels that she does not deserve me if she was capable of doing something like this to me. Right after DDay she was saying they were in love, and had talked about being together long term, but never made any plans (that would have brought reality into the A and they would not have liked that).

She says she has not given up on us or our future together, but she is afraid that I will leave. I left once before (three years ago) for about a month, and it was during that time that I was unfaithful. I have been true to her ever since then and will remain so.

How do I get her to believe that she deserves a chance and is worthy of my love? Is this something that is going to fade away as we get further away from DDay? I am trying to explain to her that it IS possible for people to build a stronger marriage after something like this, but it takes hard work and a good plan.

I know we need to establish boundaries, have an honest and open relationship, etc. But I am just wondering if this is normal for her to feel this way at this time-that she is not worthy of me and thinking that I deserve better than someone that would do something like this?

Thanks for your advice.

Last edited by jackinthebox; 06/14/11 08:00 AM.

Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
PA 1-1/2 yrs...WW exposed to OMW on 4/28/11
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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
How do I get her to believe that she deserves a chance and is worthy of my love? Is this something that is going to fade away as we get further away from DDay? I am trying to explain to her that it IS possible for people to build a stronger marriage after something like this, but it takes hard work and a good plan.

I get the feeling your wife wants to sweep this all under the rug, which makes me wonder how serious she really is. However, you should be telling her that you will give her an OPPORTUNITY TO EARN YOUR FORGIVENESS. Forgiveness is not an entitlement for waywards. It is not a good idea to pass out unearned forgiveness when it would be in all your best interest for her to EARN it.
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
"I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be unwise to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money."
I would show her this article by Dr Harley: Can't We Forgive and Forget?

You will have resentment, of course, but she can alleviate it if participates in a program to restore the romantic love. Resentment and anger are all part of recovery, though. She can't magically erase that.

As far as trust, she should not have been trusted in the first place. That is what led to the affair. But it is not a lack of trust that ruins marriages, but a lack of boundaries.


and this:
Originally Posted by Dr Harley
e topic is loss of trust. How can a spouse ever trust an unfaithful partner again? My answer is that the spouse should never have been trusted in the first place. I shouldn't be trusted by my wife, and I shouldn't trust her. The fact is that we are all wired for infidelity, and under certain conditions, we'll all do it. The way to protect your marriage from something that has been common to man (and women) for thousands of years is to recognize the threat, and do something to prevent it from happening. Basing a marriage on the Policy of Radical Honesty and the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward preventing an affair. Being each other's favorite leisure-time companions, and not being away from each other overnight are also important safety measures. Meeting each other's most important emotional needs, avoiding Love Busters and building an integrated lifestyle, free of secret second lives, are all ways to affair-proof your marriage. With these measures in place, we end up trusting our spouses because an affair becomes almost impossible to achieve.
Overcoming Resentment


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Thanks Melody,

Sweeping it under the rug is exactly what happened three years ago after my A. Looking back, I did nothing at that time to earn back her forgiveness and/or her trust, or to establish any boundaries. And that is most likely what lead to her resentment.

So if this was partially a revenge A, then do we mutually have to earn each other's forgiveness?

I have definitely had my share of anger and resentment, but I have noticed that I don't think about the A that much anymore, maybe because we discussed SO MANY details in the first couple of weeks. If we had not done this, then I know my mind would be wandering and I would always be asking myself questions as to what I thought happened. It hurt to hear it up front, but that helped in the long run.


Me: (43) FWH/BH
Her: (44) FBW/WW
Married 18 yrs, together 21 yrs
DD's 13 and 9
D Day: 4/28/11
NC: 6/2/11
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jack, what happened to all the advice from the first thread, when your W wouldn't even promise NC or commit back to the marriage? Did you ever sit her down to tell her what you will need to move forward in recovery?

You can click "Notify" and ask the moderator to attach this to your first thread.


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Originally Posted by jackinthebox
Sweeping it under the rug is exactly what happened three years ago after my A. Looking back, I did nothing at that time to earn back her forgiveness and/or her trust, or to establish any boundaries. And that is most likely what lead to her resentment.

So if this was partially a revenge A, then do we mutually have to earn each other's forgiveness?
.

You should most certainly affair proof your marriage but I would stop bringing up your affair. Your wife is bringing this up as a way to BLAME you for her affair. As long as she does that, she won't take personal responsibility for her affair. As far as I am concerned, what she did is worse because she knows what it is like to be a victim of an affair...yet she did that to you. So I would stop bringing up your affair and focus on HERS, since that is the present issue.

But this is all wasted breath if she has not committed to ending contact and committed to a program of recovery. I smell alot of bullcrap from her.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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