Hello all, I am at a crossroads and don't know how to proceed. Mid January, my WH walked out when I confirmed to him that I had called OW's H. After about 10 days he came back. So, for the next 10 days he talked about leaving again. I was on the radio show (Friday 1/28) and Dr. H told me to immediately go to Plan B and I then proceeded. After about 2 weeks he called to tell me that he was leaving the next day to go to his mom's house (2,000 miles away.) I suspected correctly that since I surprised him by taking his packed bag to him at work, he had nowhere to go, and that he lived in his company office for the 2 weeks. That weekend, he went to see his aunts and uncle about 1 hour away and on that Sunday I was told that he had some kind of "Emotional Breakdown," and no one is telling me exactly what happened. His family members live in the same college town that OW's daughter attends. I believe that my WH possibly saw OW that weekend. No one will tell me. He has been down in the Carribean for exactly 4 weeks. This weekend we spoke and he stated that he may be coming back in about 2-3 weeks as he is trying to sell his mom's house (in addition to "getting his life together.) We have talked about reconciliation and agreed that we have alot to talk about before he comes back under this roof. My issue is that he won't "admit" to what has happened since I found out about A back in August. Since he supposedly ended "contact," he only changed how he stayed contact with her, by using work email and phone. I was shown evidence that he saw her in November b/c his coworker showed me emails and pics referencing the weekend that he thought he had deleted from his computer. In December, she made a "surprise" impromptu visit to his work. I also found a draft text on his phone that he was planning to send to her referencing a Pre-Paid phone. Things between them were again escalating. I can't move forward toward Recovery if he doesn't come clean, but he's trying to "forget it happened,get his head together (finish Withdrawal) and move on with his life." He has totally resisted any suggestion that I have made from MB to date, but I sent him my SAA and HNHN because he wanted to see references about the (Plan B) letter that I sent him. He will get them tomorrow. He stated that he did not understand the letter. He said that even though I was asking him to sever all ties with OW, he says that he had but that I would not have believed him if he told me that. I don't feel I can trust him if he doesn't "come clean." I don't want to be in this position in another 6 months, like I am now after he assured me in August that the A was over. Can anyone tell me where do I go from here?

Hi GabHil22, welcome to Marriage Builders.

In your Plan B letter did you specify the conditions for returning to the marriage? If not, why not? If so, why are you having discussions with him if he has not met those conditions?

Plan B is very specific. Among the conditions for recovering the marriage is a No Contact letter that you approve and send. Any break in the No Contact rule sets recovery back to Square One.

Do you have an intermediary (IM)? This is the person who should be conducting communications between the two of you.

It does not sound to me like you are really in Plan B. I suggest you read up on it (and perhaps refresh your knowledge of it with another call to Dr. Harley).

Sounds to me you didn't take dr Harley's advice by going to plan B. So my suggestion?

GO TO PLAN B

and do not contact your husband, it looks to me that your husband want's to brush it under the rug and if you let him then there will be no reconciliation.

Write your plan B letter (post it here)
Find and IM
Block his email and phone
and STAY DARK!

Thanks for answering me. What started as a (decent) Plan B, made a questionable turn when WH left to go to the Carribean. No, a "no contact" letter to the OW was not sent. In August when I confronted him, he didn't allow me the courtesy to be there (in the room) when he called her to break it off. OW was concerned that I would tell her H, and I agreed not to if all contact stopped. So from August,I have been led to believe that it was "finished," until one of them started the texting or calling. I would then say something and state that I was going to call her H and it would stop until until about 2 or 3 weeks later when the texting and calling would start again. (This was before I found MB.) What I realized was that they may have been trying to end it, but when one of them would hit the "withdrawal wall," contact would start again. The Plan B letter stated that if he was "willing to sever all (ability to be in) contact with OW and decide to be completely honest with me, we can talk about our future together."

Are you saying that a "no contact" letter still needs to go out to OW, like now? Is there anything else that I need or should do at this time? FYI- OW is not local, but lives about 2 hours south of us. (Not like that would stop her.) OW continued contact with WH up to the weekend that he went to see his family, just before going to the Carribean (on his pre-paid phone.)

Hello Gab,

Why have you not sent a No Contact Letter?

The reason your WH did not want you in the room when he "ended it" is because he didn't want you to hear what he told the OW...

Which was that the affair needed to go underground because you knew about it.

Who all have you exposed to?

The OW husband MUST be told and could be your greatest ally in making sure the affair has ended.

Jim

@Gab -

What are your specific requirements for you to recover your marriage? What did you put in your Plan B letter. Exact wordage please?

This is my exact Plan B letter to WH.

My Dear WH,

I sincerely apologize to you for my part in creating an environment that helped make your affair with OW possible. I know that you feel that I was not there for you when you�ve needed me, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.

You recently indicated your intent to leave our home again. In the same conversation I understood you to say that you wanted to work toward reconciliation. I realize that we both need to work on ourselves individually, but during this process we can not live in a vacuum with no interaction between us. You state that you can not work on �our relationship� until you and I first take care of our respective issues. But it is not out of the realm of possibility that our individual work may develop us personally, but possibly in contrasting directions. It was unclear whether you are suggesting that our reconciliation not take place until after that point. But the time we need to work individually could likely end up being measured in �years.� If you were truly serious about reconciling, I would not think that you would want to be separated for that amount of time.

I want to and am willing to correct the errors I�ve made in the past and create a new beginning for both of us that will also meet your needs. But I can not do that until you completely sever your relationship with OW once and for all and make a conscious decision to be completely honest with me.

Until then, I will avoid seeing or talking with you. Of course, you may call and speak with SON. I will have him answer the phone when I see it�s you on the Caller ID. With regard to your time with SON, we can communicate by email or text message regarding the logistics of getting and returning him. If you would like to visit him here in our home, with notice I will arrange to be away. Any communication about our children or any other matter can be initiated with either email or text message.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with OW. I simply cannot continue to make a concerted effort to mend our relationship, hoping you will do the same, while you are still in contact with her. I still love you but I cannot see you the way things are now.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from OW and follow the suggested measures to ensure a total separation, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I continue to want us to rebuild our marriage some day. I believe our marriage can be even better than the way it was when things were the best between us. I want us to be able to meet each other�s emotional needs, and to avoid doing anything to hurt each other. We need to build a new lifestyle in which everything we do makes us both happy. Then there will never again be a reason for us to separate. I want to again be your best friend, someone who is always there for you when you need me. And I want you again as my best friend.

I loved you when we were married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot continue like this as long as you are not being honest and continue the possibility of any communication with OW.

Always,

ME

With regard to re-implementing Plan B, what good would it do if he is not even here in the States? He mentioned that he thinks he may be back in about 2-3 weeks. Help me see what I should do now to effect a change. Thanks for your advice.

It is possible to rebuild a stronger marriage than before the affair but it requires some time and efforts. For now just stick with this plan and do not contact your husband until he is ready to commit himself to saving your marriage. Make it clear to him what are the conditions and what is his part in surviving the affair.

I forgot to answer the question posed to me about Exposure. As I stated before, I did not find MB until mid-fall, so upon discovering the EA-PA, I did not expose to anyone, except a few close friends. By early-mid fall, WH's family knew the truth. I did not expose but WH did, but I see now that he literally blamed the A on me, turning his whole family against me. I called OW's H and had to tell him. That was not my intent because WH told me that OW stated that she told her H about the A. When I called to talk to him, OWH did not know so I had to tell him. I have not talked to OWH since my call on Jan 17, earlier in the day WH packed his bag and left angry because I messed up his fling. I've told my siblings and father within the past month. I have not told my daughter who was home last week for Spring Break. I started to talk about the subject and she resisted. I never got back around to trying again. My 10 year old son only knows that his Dad is with his mom, but he does not know the exact reason b"why."

A few weeks ago, WH contacted a good friend of ours asking him to help "a good friend's daughter who is finishing college" to get an interview at his company. When I saw our friend and his W, he told me about my WH's contact. Of course, that friend was actually the OW. I proceeded to tell him what was actually going on. I have been ambivilant about total exposure now, because maybe he is telling the truth and A is really over. And if so, what good would it do but anger WH. I think that if I had strong proof that the A is really still going on then I would. But, what if I am wrong? I may not be able to prove that it really is still going on. And if I can't prove it, then I don't reel right in continuing the Exposure.

Please advise. Thanks.

Gab, does your H work with OW? What was her H's response to your phone call?

You understand that YOU don't write the NC letter, right? Your WH does that, then you approve it and mail it yourself. Obviously he isn't planning to send one - and you do know that he never ended the A with that phone call he excluded you from, right?

If they work together you will need to expose this to their employer. But DON'T threaten either of them with exposure! Don't threaten exposure with the misguided thought that your threats will end the A. They won't. It will just push the affair partners underground and they'll figure out ways to hide it better. Exposure needs to hit them like a bolt of lighting. You need to hit your exposure targets in one fell swoop - not one or two today, one or two tomorrow, etc. They'll get a head's up if you expose in dribbles, and they'll have time to figure out a response that will paint you as a jealous, nut-job wife with mental issues.

I would suggest that you track down as many relatives of OW as you can and send them letters exposing this A and asking them for their support in ending the A. We have samples on this site if you need some guidance with the letter.

Does OW have Facebook? That's proven to be an effective tool for exposing to the friends on her friend list.

Your WH got pissed? Well, sure he did! You're interfering in his affair-buzz! And your hit an effective target - her BH. Think about making a list of targets for exposure: her parents, your in-laws, his siblings, HIS EMPLOYER if they work together. Check the Operation Investigation forum for helpful hints and then fire away with any questions you've got.

I'm confused. If you're in Plan B you should have had no contact with him. How is it that he got in touch with you and had a conversation about your Plan B letter?

Plan B begins with a letter confirming that you will no longer be a part of his affair drama, as a way of preserving your remaining love for him. You go dark after that. Do you have an IM in place?

Please don't mention MB any further with him. You don't want him poking around this site because we've got tools on here to help you kill the affair. It won't do to make him aware of your game plan.

I am still trying to understand how to apply the MB principles to my circumstances. My WH has been with his mom in the Carribean for a month now. I tried to implement Plan B prior to his leaving. He stated that the A has been over for a while (not according to the evidence the I have seen.) He stated that he did not indicate that information and try to convince me after receiving the Plan B letter b/c he said that I wouldn't have believed him. Many caring people monitoring this forum urged me to go back to Plan B and continue with Exposure. My questions at this time are (1) what should a BS do when the WH insists that the A is over? I don't (physically) have the proof that I need to feel comfortable in continuing with Exposure. Additionally, (2) when WH says the A "has been over" but he has not yet "officially" committed to working toward reconciliation, should Exposure continue? And (3) to date, BS and I have not sent OW the NC letter. I know the thought is that it should be sent. Should I continue with Exposure until the NC letter is sent? Or am I to continue Exposure until WH commits to working on M? Please help me get my plan together. Thanks for your advice.

[bquote=GabHil22]I am still trying to understand how to apply the MB principles to my circumstances.

I'm not real good with answering questions and by no means a vet. Just want to question a few things if I may.

My WH has been with his mom in the Carribean for a month now.

How do you know this for sure? Did he tell you? Did Mother tell you? All waywards lie. If their lips are moving they are probably lying.

I tried to implement Plan B prior to his leaving. He stated that the A has been over for a while (not according to the evidence the I have seen.) He stated that he did not indicate that information and try to convince me after receiving the Plan B letter b/c he said that I wouldn't have believed him. Many caring people monitoring this forum urged me to go back to Plan B and continue with Exposure. My questions at this time are

(1) what should a BS do when the WH insists that the A is over? I don't (physically) have the proof that I need to feel comfortable in continuing with Exposure. Additionally,
You may want to read the spying thread on here. Not sure what you have to monitor your WH. You need some way to verify his actions match what he is telling you.

(2) when WH says the A "has been over" but he has not yet "officially" committed to working toward reconciliation, should Exposure continue?

You may want to read back through your thread. I see some very knowledable Vets were posting to you.

And (3) to date, BS and I have not sent OW the NC letter. I know the thought is that it should be sent. Should I continue with Exposure until the NC letter is sent? Or am I to continue Exposure until WH commits to working on M? Please help me get my plan together. Thanks for your advice.

Was this a letter WH wrote and you approved of? I am not saying at this point to mail it.
[/quote]

Please go back through your posts. You have some extremely knowledgable Vets posting to you. I am just raising these questions. You may also want to re-read the Basic Concepts at the top of the page in the red area and see if more ideas pop up. Come back with questions then

Hope this helps

nESRE

WH is still in the Carribean with his mom since Feb 22 (he's supposed to be "getting his head together.") I was in Plan B when he left and it has been tough when we have a child that we have to make decisions about. He is preparing to return within the next week or so.

Toward the end of March I was able to confirm that he did indeed have the pre-paid phone that he was using to make contact with OW. He had to "fess up" b/c OW's B-Day was the day after the phone plan ($60 unl T & Txt)ended. WH chose to call OW on his "real" cell phone which I monitor. But WH and OW made contact the very next day. I confronted him about how after a B-Day call and another contact made within 24 hours, his contact with OW must not have stopped. I finally got the 4 digit pin and looked at the contacts from the pre-paid phone online. Another knife in my heart. While I am not surprised, WH has kids here who need and miss him and he is still playing games putting OW first before them. After much confrontation yesterday about his continual contacts with OW when he is supposedly trying to get his "head" together away from his kids, he said that when he returns he will come home and do it "my way," moving back into our home and commit to work on our relationship and move forward to restore our lives.

I have mixed feelings about this declaration. Since this is a little different with his flying home, how should I proceed from here? I want to follow SAA and will first insist on sending OW the NC letter. We have begun to discuss EPs that need to be taken to prevent further contact. I am sure OW has his mom's home phone #, so I have to take his word that NC b/t them continues. What else should I do under these circumstances, since he has not been here for us to discuss (probably in phases) our expectations from each other. Help!

I wanted to try to clarify the issues I have with WH returning. First, (of course) is Withdrawal. I was hoping he would have gotten through the worst part with his mom. Now, since there has been constant contact until the phone plan wasn't renewed, I am sure he probably has barely scratched the surface. I have not found anything suggested on how to handle Withdrawal with BW and WH under the same roof. Any suggestions?

Second, expectations.

Third, Additional issues that I feel must be addressed. Before I found MB, I was trying to deal with this "problem" I had alone. Prior to and since D-Day, WH chose to marshal all of his family against me. You know, I am horrible, I "made" him have an A. I am the reason for our financial problems, and on, and on. They have been directing him to begin to "gather evidence" in case of a D, His family tends to "enable" him. While they don't "condone" the A, they have seen it as a better alternative to M with me. Bottom line, he has so far "fudged" the truth about the true picture, you don't recognize it. His family (the few I am in contact) really only "tolerate" me. I can tell that he has fed them so many lies. My issue is if he doesn't tell the truth about what he's said about me, and we are successful in recovery and stay together, he would say that he is staying for our son, and then they will hate me even more (b/c I am not letting him get on with his life w/o me.) Hope this helps. Thanks.

To catch up, WH is still in the Caribbean with his mom (since 2/22). He is trying now to arrange his return for 5/7. I found out that he does have a pre-paid cell with which he was in constant contact with OW. He finally "came clean" and gave me access to the account history online. He states that when it was time to pay for another month to keep it on, it was decided let the phone go. (I don't know who made that decision.) So if WH is not lying to me (again) he should be in Withdrawal with the last contact he admits to being on 3/30. I still do not trust that he is telling the whole truth.

WH is continually on the fence about whether we wants to work on our marriage or to file for divorce. He even told me we should go ahead and file, and maybe in a year or two we could start seeing each other and possibly remarry. I assured him that if we did go ahead and file, I would NOT consider resuming our relationship after the divorce became final.

He has some questions and he and I both feel we need answers. I am not sure that SAA has the answers so I thought I would post them for help.

1-WH wants to know "how long does Withdrawal really take?" Are there any "benchmarks" that may indicate the level of progress, and how soon it will be over? What does it feel like when withdrawal is finished? How do you know it is finished?

2- WH has indicated that he does not really want to meet my EN. What does one do in such a case? In SAA Dr. Harley talked about having to "prime the pump" with Sue and Jon. He has indicated that he wants to work on our marriage but I am still getting non-committal responses. Since he should be in withdrawal now,is this why I am getting such wishy-washy answers?

3- WH is concerned that he will not "get the love back" for me. I pointed out what Sue said in SAA pg. 163, but he won't trust that it can and will happen. Any thoughts for him?

4- We are both beginning to fill out the EN and LB questionnaires. Should we fill them out putting down behaviors as they are now or pre-A?? I feel that my indications will be skewed if I put down behaviors as they have been lately due to the A. Any thoughts? Thanks.

Gabhill, I would go ahead and file for divorce, but before you do that, I would go into Plan B. Your H is not in any way interested in recovery. He is only interested in keeping you and the OW in tow. The success or failure of your marriage is completely contingent upon his ability to make a 180 degree turn in his approach to what it means to be a husband. I would take a pass and tell him not to contact you unless and until he is committed to taking the appropriate steps to recover your marriage.

Now would be an ideal time to send him a Plan B letter followed by changing the locks on your house.

I have a question about WH's Withdrawal from the OW. As I said in my previous post, he admits his last contact was on 3/30. I asked him last night about his going through withdrawal, mentioning some of the "symptoms." He said that he hasn't experienced any feelings of depression, anxiety,(classic symptoms) etc. He stated that he has been "fighting" the feeling when he is thinking of her (triggers and flashbacks) but that compulsion is lessening every day. I am having a hard time truly believing him. Could WH's withdrawal symptoms be only as he has described them? Or is this a symptom of something else?

It's been a while since I've posted. My WH is now back after 11 weeks in the Carribean with his mom. Before he returned we did alot of talking and are in agreement with how we will (continue to) proceed with MB program. He seemed to be doing well being back with the exception of when he gets stressed out about the even deeper financial hole we are in since he quit his job to go and get his head together "on vacation."

In agreement with our EP, he gave me his "affair phone" and I have been given access to the call and text history for the number. He was using an AT & T Go Phone which he paid $60 in advance for a month of unlimited Tlk & Txts. At the end of March he had to pay up or the phone went off. He did not pay up.

With regards to ending it with the OW, I asked him how was that decided. He told me that he talked to her on her B-Day (the day after the phone went off) He told me that she said that she was blocking his numbers from calling and txting her phone. She was in counseling and she was going to do what was suggested. So that conversation would really be the last.

The only thing about the EP's that had not been done is the NC Letter. I tried to get WH to see that he needed to do it because the ending of this A was by other "forces" (OW's decision and lack of $$ to keep the phone working.)He needs to take a proactive step himself to declare that he considers this A totally over. I told him that the way it is now, if OW decides to re-establish contact, she will. He then (begrudgingly) agreed and stated that although he feels the effort is redundant (since they have already said their Goodbyes,)he would write the NC Letter.

I have been monitoring both his "legit" and A phones and on Fri.(5/27)I noticed a call from OW's area code to the A phone. I searched and found that the number was from OWH's company and I assumed it was from OWH. Yesterday (after 5:00) I called the number and found out that I actually dialed OW's work phone, which her voice announced her name as the call went to VM. I then said nothing to my WH.

This morning, WH tells me that the NCL will be ready for me to send this afternoon. He then asked if I found out who called the A phone. I was checking the phone activity and I saw where that same number called his "legit" phone an hour and 3 hours after the initial attempt on the A phone. WH then stated that he was thinking about calling OWH (why, I don't know.) He later suggested that he call the number with me right there. He did and found out that it was OW's work phone. (I (we) didn't know that OW works PT at the same company that OWH does.)

I had planned to call OW on the next day she would usually work and go off on her, but I don't think I can or should now under the circumstances. But since we made this discovery, WH assured me that he will not answer any calls from OW's area code. He knows that I have the ability to find out if OW calls again, and if he answers the call. In exchange, WH asked me not to call OW. I said that I wouldn't until she tries to contact WH again. Then all bets could be off.

Later on, I told WH that I had reflected on this morning's findings and we both agreed that his NC Letter will do the speaking for him.

My bottom line question is if I (we) handled this situation in a way that is in line with MB? If not, what should I have done or do differently?

Since we are transitioning toward Recovery, I understand if this question needs to be moved to the "In Recovery" forum for response. If so, feel free.