Thanks for the advice, Kirby. Sounds very reasonable and solid.

I did not agree to a "joint session" but was willing to talk to the counselor about her behavior and our marriage at the times of the affairs if it would have been helpful. I didn't think about whether or not my STBXWW would be there or not -- didn't occur to me that it would matter.

I agree that it appears the counselor may have been misled by my STBXWW about my intentions.


I will call the counselor to see if I could do a private session first and lay out my side of the issues/story so I can be confident that I'm not already painted as the bad guy.

Thanks

GU, I wrote the post you see below while Kirby was posting. I don't always have internet access so I just typed it up waiting for a time to get online with my computer (I can view posts from phone, but writing on it is cumbersome). As you'll see, I feel the same way as Kirby and "repeat" much of what was said. However, I'm not editing anything; mostly because I put some effort into it but also I suppose there's slight variation (if nothing else, Kirby is much more polite, lol).

Giving Up,
The first thing that jumps out at me from your post above is that you are apparently believing your wayward spouse about what transpired in the appointment with the counselor. Do you realize you are doing this? Because I would have done the same thing when was still involved with my WS. It�s simply amazing the nature of their ability to manipulate. One of the best methods for them is twisting the truth to serve their purposes. I know you know this, but again, I could have used some reality testing (and I did actually get a lot here, thank heavens) all along the way with my now exWW.

Now, if she�s not lying, then the counselor is a complete moron.

�okay, I take that back. You probably know how I feel about IC�s by now. More diplomatically: she is not in tune with Harley�s teaching on adultery. Therefore, she speaks a different language than you. Therefore your WW is learning a different language � one that is NOT conducive to reconciliation with you on any level. And, um, your WW is not �addicted to love� �that is preposterous. I would laugh if the notion wasn�t one that causes so much pain � in your situation to you and at least 4 other FAMILIES. She�s addicted to her disgusting impulses and absolute lack of boundaries. If an IC is teaching her anything different, it is completely irresponsible and bordering on criminally negligent, but that is unfortunately the way of the world when it comes to IC�s. Egads, did I mention how much I love IC�s?

Your STBX would have to demonstrate the 12 points on your list, and then your outline of the type of person you want to spend the rest of your life with�FOR A CONSIDERABLE PERIOD OF TIME, for you to feel that any changes she makes/made were permanent. Am I correct? After 4 go-arounds, I would expect that period of time is simply not one you�re willing to offer. Given the time frame, and the past history of blatant disregard for your feelings, and her complete inability to demonstrate trustworthy behavior, there is nothing unreasonable about you wanting to break the marriage contract officially.

Anyway, I think a joint visit with this IC would be a waste of your time. The only reason I would do it is to keep your word (a courtesy your stbxww has never been good at providing to you). I would do the same. However, I have to say I wish you would have qualified this whole thing with a �MB� counselor. I don�t believe your stbx will get any of the kind of benefit you hope she will from going to see your run-of-the-mill, garden variety IC.

On that note: we all try to have influence over our spouses. Personally I tried for years, then continued to do so after the D. Always with good intentions of helping her become a better person and a better mother for my kids. Sorry to break it to you but it didn�t work for me. I reasonably coaxed my exWW toward this board, toward Harley�s books, toward general acceptance of non-traditional views on adultery�to no avail. A noble cause, but in the end a big lesson I�ve picked up from this whole divorce process is that we really can only change ourselves. (I know, duh, right?). I now try to keep my own inventory and try to lead by example.

opt

You realize this is reeediculous, right? It is literally the same thing as saying "If I wouldn't have burned his toast, he wouldn't have beat the crap out of me, it was my fault I have a broken nose." There is absolutely NO excuse for adultery. She should have divorced you if you couldn't meet her needs; it's FARRRRR less cruel.

I don't think it would be decieving at all to let her know that the only way to save the marriage would be to give you the divorce you are asking for. She could show you that she respects you this way, and you are interested in being with someone who respects you. She could take the time to build the strength of character one needs to be faithful in a marriage (the temptations are always going to be there). And after some time has passed, maybe you could go out on a few dates and see if the flame could be rekindled. [we both know you'll probably have moved on, but it's still a very reasonable offer].

Meanwhile, if D is your path, remember that it's a business transaction. Her mental/emotional positioning are nothing that should influence you. Any more than going to a car dealer and trying to "sweet talk" (or beg or grovel, or make empty promises) them into GIVING you a car.

opt

Giving Up, this is very, very long. I read this thread tonight, and you are talking my language. The language I used to talk, before I discovered something. I discovered I was worth more to ME than what my spouse led me to believe with all his lies. Most of this post (in red) are comments that I know all too well.

Giving up...is exactly what it's time to do!

You asked in one post: "Has anyone else's STBXWS (like MyJourney's) come back declaring to fight for the marriage? Did they really mean it or was it just words?"

Yes, and It IS just words!!!! I logged in tonight to update my own post, but saw this. Please, PLEASE do NOT fall for her lies!!! It's not easy to walk away, believe me, she is NOT going to change, does not want to change, and won't change. She's doing this for her own security, not a darn thing to do with you or the marriage. I am in the middle of divorcing a serial cheater myself. My husband kept his online, in cyber affairs. You have described very much, my feelings and how he reacted to each time I found out about a new one!

I am also in VA, this state is a 'no fault' state, you can however, file with grounds. The second she gets you in bed, you lose those grounds! I will guarantee you that she KNOWS this!!! Do grounds matter? Not really, you can still get a divorce....but.....

No need to answer the questions, this is just to get you thinking:

Who makes more money? That will play out in a 20 year marriage on spousal support, bills and who gets stuck with which ones, etc. If she makes a lot more, YOU could get spousal support, or she could get stuck with more bills, etc. Make sure you cancel any joint accounts!!! Like pesky credit cards! IF you make a lot more, you might get let off on spousal support if she makes enough to live on, AND you have grounds like adultery! Don't lose the ability to use the grounds!

Also, grounds, especially adultery, never look good on the person doing the deed....she goes in with a black hat from the start and playing defense if she so chooses to fight the divorce. Let her wear the hat!



�My STBXWW is driving me bonkers.� (they do that very well when they are seeing what they are losing or could be losing.)

�She's delivering the "I want to save our marriage" bit pretty heavy. By the shovel full.�

�She complains that I treat her like she has a disease.�

�She's asked multiple times what she needs to do to show me she's serious.�

�Her standard response is to try and rush us back to a state of "normal" -- me in the bed, calling each other, pretending to be a happy couple -- all without addressing the core issues. I stupidly allowed this to happen after her previous affairs but not this time. I can learn new things, too.� (GOOD for you!!! Sticking with it is not always easy!)

�The other day she walked up to me and hugged me and said, "See, I fit right here."�

�For the past week, my STBXWW has been saying how sorry she is and how she doesn't want to lose me or our marriage. She's been pledging to "get help" for her "problem".� (yeah, heard this song and dance so many times my head spins) �She wants me to go to marriage counseling.� (Of course she does, then she can blame you! She can tell the judge you never tried if you don't...let her try!)

�I just don't believe that she wants to save anything but the security and comfort.� Bingo!

�I always said, "One more and I'm through!"

But I always let her come back. Don't know what my personal dysfunction is, but I wanted to believe she can change and (in some way) wanted to believe she'd see me as better than other men. (Warning: Male Ego at work.)�

It's not a personal dysfunction, it's human nature to want to make things work, it's part of who we are, the vows we take, the guilt we feel over breaking something like those vows that mean so much to us. It took me a LONG time to get it thru my head that some days, you just have to say, this is not good for ME. It's not selfish to start thinking of your own happiness, it's very necessary!!! And it's not just a male ego thing, its pride, and its across both genders. We don't like to think of ourselves as failures.

�I'm not interested in restoring our marriage after her four affairs and don't believe she's sincere about getting help.

But it sure did feel nice to hear her say how much she values me and doesn't want to lose me or our friendship.

Then I find out she's still talking to the OM, pledging her love and discussing their plans to be together.

WHY DO I LET HER PLAY ME????

Why am I so gullible?�

Why? The future alone scares us. After all this time, we lose our own feeling of self worth. We begin to think we deserve this garbage. We try to hold on, to fix what is wrong for so long, we feel like it's our fault that it is not working. We aren't trying hard enough, we aren't giving enough, we aren't.....fill in the blanks. We start to doubt ourselves, who we are, what we stand for. To a huge extent, letting go of a marriage makes US feel like failures...and we are NOT failures because we can't take anymore of what our spouses are throwing at us. It HURTS. We can only take so much pain before we say, no more. I'm worth more than this! To ME.

�I got the "restart" message as well. A chance to "start over". I told her it's impossible -- we can't wipe our memories of the past and pretend we're just meeting for the first time.�

Yes, I heard this line too. IF I would only just forget the past, we could have a future. My response to that? I'm so sorry, can you tell me how you forget the pain of a knife being plunged into your chest, a hole dug out so your spouse can reach in, grab your heart, toss it on the ground, run it over, stomp on it, smash it to bits, set it on fire, spit on it, slash it full of hatred, bitterness, anger, blame and lies, then hand it back and say, here, good as new, if you would only forget! Forgetting is not that easy to do, heck forgiving is not that easy to do. Especially after four tries. They don't get it.

�I wouldn't yet characterize her as crawling, but she's pretty close to begging and I'm just not "feeling" it this time. She doesn't understand the cumulative impact four affairs can have on a marriage.�

Sad thing is, the longer you hold out, the worse it's going to get. You need to either get out, or get her out. ASAP. She will probably never understand.

�So the roller coaster goes on�...and on and on until you get so sick of it you jump off.

�My STBXWW had her first counseling appointment yesterday and called to talk with me about it.� Next time? Hang up! Someone gave you some excellent advice on changing phone numbers. 'Forget' to give it to her. Just like she 'forgets' she is married when she's sleeping around.

�My intention was to have my wife figure out what was causing her to have these repeated affairs with other married men so she wouldn't take this into her next relationship (after our divorce) and have our daughters see her bouncing from one destructive relationship to the next.�

See if you can look at this part in a different light. Once you are divorced? Does it really MATTER what she does with her life, her future relationships? NO. It is HER problem, not yours!

What does matter is your daughters, and you are far better off getting counseling for your daughters than you are wasting time and energy on your wife. We can not fix someone who chooses not to be fixed!!!

�She told me that the counselor said the problem was "our" problem and that she's "addicted to love" and the only way to end it was for me to be part of the solution.�

The problem is not 'our' problem, it is hers! Again, we can't fix someone who chooses not to be fixed! The counselor did not tell her that, I'm willing to put money on it. If she did, she's lousy and needs to stop counseling. All the counselors that I have talked to, have all been about fixing ME not on fixing my husband. Including on how to accept the blame for MY part, not putting it on him. The part we play for us, you and I and those in our shoes? It's in not having boundaries. It's in not saying 'no I will NOT accept this' and meaning it. The first time.

�So now I feel like I'm subtly being blamed for her affairs -- if I had met her "love addiction" needs, she wouldn't have to get them met elsewhere. Nothing like a little pressure on a person -- meet her love needs or she'll have another affair.�

My husband and I had an email exchange about just this thing. His words? �If you don't give me the sex I need, you KNOW what always happens!� DO NOT take the blame, it is NOT your blame!!!

�For my wife's part, she's convinced herself that she's going to save the marriage -- she's picking out fabric to redecorate the living room of the house she's not going to be living in.�

If you are positive she is not getting the house, get her out. It won't be easy. Yeah, she's convinced she will save it. She knows you have concrete proof of her affair, the pictures, she knows what that will do to her in court, in the divorce, and fixing the marriage? Hop in that bed and see how long it lasts. I give it at most, two weeks, the time my husband worked on 'fixing' ours. I can guarantee you she will be far more discreet the next time, and there will be the next time.

�I've made it clear that divorce is my intention and I don't see the marriage as salvagable given her four affairs.�

�My STBXWW claims she told the counselor the truth about everything. I just don't know.� She did not, liars don't stop lying just because it's a counselor.

�The next counseling session is next week where we both get to go -- I'm not looking forward to it anymore as I'm now the bad guy somehow.�

Don't go. Just that, do not go.

I'm going to DITTO!! everything NSZ just said.

Keep moving GU. The pendulum swings back and forth, just try and anticipate it's rythm and prepare for it. I'm heading back from my "bad side" of the swing...

The appointment was originally scheduled for this week. Monday was a holiday, today is Friday.

...How'd you come out GU?

opt

My wife says she loves me but not in Love with me. She has had a couple of affairs during our 2-1/2 year marriage after dating for three years before that. We have been like room mates the past two years. She has wanted to get an apartment for awile but could not afford to do so. She says she feels guilty that she cannot give me what I need. Through all of this I still love her. She has told me that no one has ever love her or took as good of care of her as I have, that I am a great husband. I started to file for divorce but put it on hold. I am going to pay for 6 months for her to get an apartment and see if she misses us at all. I feel like a big fool but I still love her very much but I do not want to be a door mat for anybody. I have too much good I bring into a relationship. Does anybody know if this kind of seperation works or is this just the long good bye and I should wait for her to leave and then file? If there REALLY is a chance, I will wait. If not I want to get on with my life. Thanks for your help and advice.

MT

Uh-oh.

The old "ILYBINILWY" speech, as we call it here.

If you want to save this marriage (although your post makes me wonder why, given), I'd suggest asking the moderators to move this thread to the Surviving An Affair forum.

Paying for her to move to an apartment is the extreme of enabling behavior. You are not going to win her back by separating from her. Rather, you are going to enable her wayward/affairing ways.

Your choice, of course. But I know where I stand on your marriage.

Hope65

Please start your own thread in SAA. You will get a lot more attention from the veterans.

Cypress

Thank you