WH and I have been talking practically nonstop for the last 3 weeks about our moving forward into marital recovery. WH wants me to formulate a document that spells out the EP's, and exactly how we will proceed from this point. I also need things to be totally clear so that there is no misunderstanding. Has anyone done something like what I am talking about? If so, can you give me any "samples?" Please help me. I need something quick so we can proceed.

If it were me, I'd change that phone number that OW dialed. If you then see that she called it, you'll know he gave her the number.

Email addresses need to be changed as well and all passwords known.

No facebook, IMO.

No opposite sex friendships.

Schedule your UA time, get a calender if you need to.

There's a better format that MelodyLane sometimes posts, perhaps she'll add to this.

You might consider counseling with Steve or Jennifer as well. As a man, I know I gravitate towards step-by-step things, and your talking with them would probably be more beneficial than the two of you trying to wing it. They can help you guys get a plan together, and it sounds like a good first step. Talk to your husband about it.

Since this affair is still fresh (and since OW is actively trying to contact your husband) I'm concerned that the "No Contact" will slip if you guys don't maintain the momentum.

Thanks, Northwood. I would have forgotten a few of the ones you listed. Is the "document" supposed to be the "Marital Recovery Agreement" that is in the Appendix of SAA? In other words, would we use that agreement? I am not sure if what I am trying to draft is the one I should use from SAA, just adding what I need to include specifically to fit our needs. Or am I confusing the two?

Hopefully MelodyLane will weigh in on this as well.

I will also discuss counseling/coaching with MB as well.

I couldn't say (haven't seen that Agreement that you mentioned) but typical posts just have a list of what is expected from the wayward.

Since your husband asked for a written agreement, I'd seriously do the telephone counseling so that you guys will have a third party/referee to guide you. Too, I understand that Steve can be very matter-of-fact with waywards and gets the point across quite well.

And get those phone numbers and email addresses changed

I know that WH's cell phone and email needs to be changed. Does that mean MY cell phone number and email too?

I just found out about a jewelry purchase that WH made for OW just after arriving at his mom's house (2/25/11). He ordered it from an online store and had it sent to her work address. In an effort to question him about it, I got on the general subject of whether he had ever given her a gift. He of course said no. I later asked him about his calls to the online store. I asked why he made several (6) calls to the store's 800 number within a matter of about 3 business days. Then he admitted that he did buy her a "dress" (from the place he really bought the bracelet.) I found the info on the bottom of a page that was folded and tucked into the copy of SAA that he read. I even mentioned the "name" of the bracelet(written on the page) and he said it did not mean anything to him. I am getting ready to tell him how I discovered the purchase (from his papers), and calling the 800 number and giving them the confirmation number (also on this paper)and they gave me everything, including the fedex confirmation tracking (so I could confirm exactly where it was sent)and the last 4 digits of the credit card that he used to complete the purchase.

He does not seem to understand that his honesty (even if he thinks it will upset or hurt me) is essential to me being able to begin to allow myself to begin to trust him again. How can I trust him when I can't quickly verify the truth when he will outright lie to me when he knows I can (and will) find out or he should know that I already know the truth? All I can do is cry. I don't understand it.

With regard to the bracelet, my first instinct is to send OWH a picture of it and let him know that it was a gift from my WH. Should I do that or just leave it alone? If it was the dress that WH "admitted" to sending to her, it wouldn't matter, but it it's a charm style bracelet with a heart charm.

If you can give me some insight on these issues, I would appreciate it

I wouldn't worry about your email address or cell--she's probably not going to try to contact you.

Just get his changed and keep track of them via cellphone spyware and a keylogger for the computer.

Have you talked to OWH since OW tried to call last? I'd make sure he knows about the attempted contact and you could also mention the bracelet if you thought about it.

Have you ever spoken with OW?

As for the honesty issue, I'd definitely try the counseling for that. He has to be able to tell you the truth without you going completely nuts upon hearing the truth--and causing him to shut down and the cycle continuing.

Of course, he has to first *want* to be honest with you, and I'm not getting that vibe from your posts.

It reminds me of chickadee's posts about her husband...

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2485742&page=1

my H tricked truthed me for 3 mos. lies lies lies.

thing was when it all came out, pulled alot of Sh*t from his [censored], part of why he was not being honest with me was because of his own shame for his actions and he knew that it would be devastating and i would definately leave him.

After the final d day (he said in the beging it was beacuse he didnt want to hurt me) and in the end it was about the shame of it all.

you HAVE to swallow the truth and thank him, yes turn you head and barf. Wipe it off and say yes please can i have some more.

after all of the time i thought i had it all i kept at it, i did have him do a poly, after so many times, i had to. I have a full list of EP i will send you later, its long.

I would suggest that you both call the harleys- they helped HIM understand why we could not move forward without H&O- in fact we were coaching with Jennifer (daughter) as more crap was coming out, she was not surprised. I am sure you will get more, brace yourself.

back to you later, hang in there!!!

I spoke to the OWH in January 2011. I didn't know that I was exposing to him. At first it seemed like he did not believe it, but he realized that I knew too much personal stuff that only OW could have told my WH who then told me. They live in the next major city about 2 hours south of us. His attitude by the end of the conversation was that we can't babysit them. But he was going home to have a little talk with his wife. The way we ended the conversation, I got the feeling that after he talked to OW, there would be no further reason for he and I to make contact. We were both supposed to handle our own business. The A cooled off that night with OW making the crying "goodbye" speech to my WH, I'm sure for benefit of OWH, but a few days later it was back in full swing since WH walked out on me that night. I think that I need to make a call to him, but since he did not seem open, I don't want to be a pest either. I don't know what really is the nature of their relationship. OW seems to be OWH's "trophy wife." OW told my WH that she suspected that OWH could have had an A or 2 himself, but she had no evidence of anything. But she has been getting affection and intimate conversation from my WH. OWH does not seem to pay her any attention, he just works a lot, doing a great deal of international travel.

WH has written a version of a NC letter. He did not want to do it. But he finally saw the need after she attempted to contact. But he has not yet given me the "final" copy. I am wondering if he can't bring himself to give it to me so I can send it. I will mention that possibility to him.

Thanks, Chick. I would really like to see what you have written down. I keep feeling that I will forget to include something. I will talk to him about counseling with the Harleys. I think that it would really help.

Thanks.

"since WH walked out on me that night. I think that I need to make a call to him, but since he did not seem open, I don't want to be a pest either. I don't know what really is the nature of their relationship. "

will send ep's but are you kidding me with this. dont want to be a pest???????????? its your husband! you are not a pest you are his wife. - pest to whom the OWH? give me a break. this is your shot, who cares you have nothing to lose.

their relationship is they had an A. come on, i may be jumping on something i shouldnt but liar liar pant on fire! who gives crap about her, stop typing about her problems and trying to figure out her relationship.. not about her!

send the letter!!!! now.

ep's next

Call him anyway and, just to break the ice, you could start the conversation about not wanting to be a pest. These are never "easy" conversations, just get what you need to say over with and see where it lands.


Consider the source of that tidbit and rethink it. What would she say? That her husband was the greatest man alive and what she was doing was wrong OR that her husband was scum and that her cheating on him, therefore, had some merit.

I'd bet OWH heard some pretty lousy things about you.


Well of course he doesn't! I'm sure he's never around and, when he is, struts around drunk yelling at the top of his lungs! I'm sure he's just flat out AWFUL and poor ole OW is just under this mean-ole-man's thumb all the time!

Get where I'm going there?


Good. Now tell him to cut the crap, get with the program and send the letter now. And that if you get so much as a mouse fart's whiff of contact between the two of them again, you're out of here, will file for divorce on grounds of adultery and drag OW's sorry butt into court to give testimony as to how she destroyed a family.

And mean every single word of it because his turn at the wheel is over, and now that you're back on your feet you are never going to be knocked down again.

emailing or texting with women outside of work reasons
no more going to bars or out drinking with his friends at night unless I am are there-
No more flirting
No sex in any form with anyone but me (had to reaasured no grey area)
if ANY of the OW makes any type of contact (face to face, email, txt phone call) you are to immediately end the contact and let me know and then take whatever steps are necessary to block future communication
no overnight traveling without each other
100 % transparency, no erasing of emails or texts and giving me access to all records and accounting time
Change cell phone number and give password & account access to me.
Change email account.- gmail
no social networking accounts (i.e., Face book, Classmates, My Space, etc.)
Take a polygraph
List out passwords for all business and personal computer logins, and any other passwords I don�t not have access to.
Install software that tracks and I have administrative access.
protect me and my feelings above all else.
not discuss our marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
be open and honest with me at all times about the past and present.
Discuss each day you daily schedule. If you need to make an adjustment to schedule, let me know of the change immediately.
make my phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
leave your phone accessible to me.
commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention.
Anytime you have the thought, �I don�t want chick to know about��.�, call me and tell me


Base your actions on if chick were sitting next to me would I say or do it.

All good points, especially these last two.

DL2M,

NW & chicka are right, you are going to have to step up and lead this recovery. The EPs to prevent future contact (including the NC letter) are NON-NEGOTIABLE. You need to make sure your H understands this.

Here is part of your problem...Plan B is basically Plan Boundary. You let your H break your Plan B without any commitment to recovery so you basically told him that you won't enforce your boundaries. You are going to have to work extra hard now to make sure that you show him that you MEAN WHAT YOU SAY.

Regarding the jewelry that he is lying about, I wouldn't confront him with the receipt. I would just tell him you know that he hasn't given you the whole truth yet and he will need to take a polygraph.

There is more information under Operation Investigation on how to find someone that is qualified.

Well Guys, I read WH excerpts of "How to trust and Fall in Love again" which dealt alot with WH withholding the truth. I had another article or two reiterating the same thing. He seemed to agree about the issue and then agreed that he could see that nondisclosure could occur in order "protect" the BS. I thought we got all of that straight. I start to ask a question or two and he starts to get "snippy." He then said "If you want to hear that we slept together that night, then, yes, we did. Whether it's the truth or not, that's what I am going to say because that 's what you want to hear." Next was a fight with me trying to get across to him that I want the TRUTH, good or bad, whether he thinks that it'll hurt me or not. He told me that since credibility will always from now on be at issue, I need to hire someone to follow him around and report back to me regarding his actions. He said that he fell (back) in love with her (OW was the girl he dated during his freshman year in college, he met me the next year.) I asked him if that would be possible to do again with me. He said that he did not know. I got so mad and frustrated that I lost it and told him to get the f**k out. I have had it with the nondiscloure.

I tried to explain to him a few days ago what is says in SAA. Resentment will build if someone feels that they have been deprived of something and is not getting at least that much or better in place of it. I think that is what is happening to me. I told him that OW has had HIM and his attention, love and affection for 18 months now. Contact ended between them on 3/30. (2/3/2010 to 3/30/2011-up to now) He flew back here on May 10 and I have not seen much effort (on his own without my suggesting) to begin to restore the romantic love for me. I am trying to meet his ENs. He does not seem to want to meet mine. He does not touch me unless he wants sex. I finally had to point that out to him the other day. It seems that he does not have any faith in the MB program.

He read SAA and he states that he had a problem with it because he couldn't relate to the couples as people with real lives. He questions whether there was a job loss and other factors that he has to deal with now along with the issue of infidelity. I have not seen a filled out EN Questionnaire fro him. I suggested that we read a chapter of HNHN (aloud) and talk about it every evening. Stupid me started with the "'A' Story" at the beginning and that turned him off b/c he already read about Jon and Sue and Amy and Kevin in SAA. He said that he didn't need to hear it again b/c he's still living the nightmare. (me too.)But, we haven't moved on to the needs chapters like we had decided that we would do.

I calmed down after I had a good cry in the shower and told him that I have not seen much (on his own) of his effort to recover our marriage. He is a grown man, why should I have to be the one to tell him what to do ? He read SAA, and can figure out what needs to be done to start the recovery process. I don't mind suggesting, but I shouldn't have to say it more that 1 or 2x. He then turns it on me, telling me that he has not seen the changes he needs to see from me. WH is referring to the issues that started his resentment toward me, causing him to fall out of love with me and later toward the A. His issue is that he wants me to work FT. But when he went to stay with his mom, he quit his FT job and left. I did not know how I was going to pay bills, eat, etc. We were literally abandoned. It's like he did not care. The Sunday b/4 he left for his mom's, (2/20/11) he saw OW and it was supposed to be their "last goodbye." He came back to his aunts and emotionally fell apart. I was not called, but his uncle called his brother. A decision was made to fly him to Puerto Rico for some R and R and to get OW out of his head and to decide what he wanted to do about our marriage. I believe he and his brother and uncle (after much bashing of me) decided if he got on a plane and left, it would force me to quickly find a job. After that, he would come home and then I would be doing what he wanted all the while. But it did not happen that way. He called toward early April and heard our DS becoming detached from him. It shook him up and then he realized that if he waited for me to get a job before returning, he may not have any salvageable relationship with DS.

Any thoughts on the way he sees the picture? During the 2-3 years prior to the A, he spoke with most of his family members telling them that he wasn't happy with our marriage, but never had a straight on the table conversation on the issue with me. He disagrees. I later realized that in his "talks" with me he would "beat around the bush" on the issue without any direct discussion on what was bothering him.

Thanks for letting me vent. I got the EPs (Chickadee) and will be constructing the plan in writing today. I hope that I(we) can fix this.

Any words of wisdom, please let me hear them.

You won't like this.
You're doing all the heavy lifting.


Your H is throwing out excuses.
You are in, or are headed for a disaster. ~~~> A possible (likely) FALSE RECOVERY.


My H would have been picking some of his teeth off the floor if he said this to me.


LINK to FALSE RECOVERY thread
<~~~ read it !

In my opinion, this was the perfect thing to do since he doesn't want to be a big boy and have a conversation about this. I would have added that he needs to either file for divorce or stop the bull-excrement.

The rest of what he said is just deflecting everything on you. No real need to comment on that, pep covered it very well--especially the part about a possible need for a dental plan

I'd be really surprised if he isn't in contact with OW, and think that an ultimatum must be made. He has to hit rock bottom.

Until he gets there, his antics will continue and he'll drag you down with him.

I'd give him the list of EPs and add phone counseling to the list. Tell him that he either agrees to all of it (it's not negotiable) or you're filing for a divorce on the grounds of adultery and he needs to leave immediately. I'd then go no contact with him. The conversation shouldn't take more than ten seconds.

Just my two-cents.

Pep and North, I was feeling the same. I was thinking that I was too harsh. He's got alot on his "plate" trying to get a job and all. But, I don't think it would be impossible to look for a job and work on one's relationship with one's spouse.

I have gotten the impression (maybe its a false one) that practically all WHs come "crawling back on their knees" when they have ended it and want to reconcile. He seems to have ended it and expressed wanting to be here and work on us, but I am not getting what I label as "humility" from him. Its like I should be the humble one to have him here with us. I don't understand it. How did he get to call the shots? Maybe its not really a true arrogance, but there's some resentment there b/c of where he is now. No Job (yet) no car, no funds to get his own place. Just before Christmas, he blew the engine on the car he drove running after that 'ho--OW. And that has severely changed the dynamics of this situation. And he doesn't like it one bit. Really, if he had a working car, he'd be gone. When he left on 1/17, he spent the 10 days with friends, but that got old. Friends will let you stay with them a lot longer if they don't also have to give you a ride everywhere.

I agree with you about him needing to leave for a while. That's what happened back in Jan-Feb. He walked out on 1/17 and was gone for 10 days. He was home for 10 days and then on Feb 7, I took his bags to him at his office and started Plan B. For the next 2 weeks he really lived in his office, sleeping on the floor. The 2nd weekend, (2/18-20) he went to visit his Aunt and Uncle. OW also came for the weekend to the same (our alma mater)college town, where her DD just received her degree. After their "last goodbye" WH became emotionally unglued. Less than 48 hours later he was in PR with his mom and was there for 11 weeks. I thought he would come home with a different attitude about being here and working on us. But really its probably only about him having a roof over his head with/or near his DS and DD. I must accept that is the truth of the matter.