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Originally Posted by TomOlympus
Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by TomOlympus
I have read that before and I understand it. I disagree with it, but I understand it.
It comes back to two people wanting two different things. It is like when one person is at point 1 and the other is at point 10 on a line. When a decision is made on what to do one of two things has to happen; one of the people changes their minds and becomes happy/enthusiastic about a different point on that line or one or both people make a sacrifice.
I know sacrifice is "wrong". Yet many people, couples, relationships, and marriages use them. I scratch your back you scratch mine. As long as I get something in return for doing something for you, I don't mind. The negative goes away when the positive comes along. *That was a sidebar*
When it comes to a situation like this, I don't understand how both people can be enthusiastic about whatever choice is made because the two were so far apart in the first place. Again, unless one of them changes their opinion, and I do not see that happening (nor do I think that necessary).
What if both people are satisfied/happy with a comprimise.

You may have read it, but you clearly don't understand it.

And if you don't agree with MB concepts, then why do you continue to come back here seeking solutions to your problems? Do you expect to get advice that follows some plan other than MB here?

I understand the idea, not how it works no. Thats why I was asking more questions . Like, when people are very far apart on their opinions, how do you actually make it so two people are enthusiastic without changing their opinion on what they really want?
Also, it is possible to enthusiastically agree to "scratch each others back." (happily compromise)
What if both people are very satisfied with the idea?

If both people are very satisfied with the solution, then it isn't sacrificing or compromising. That's what POJA is all about, finding a solution to a problem that both partners are enthusiastic about.

Why don't you call Dr. Harley and pose this question to him? I think it would make a very interesting topic of conversation for the radio show and then you could get an answer directly from the expert himself.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
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BH and I are raising my OC together.
writer1 #2522779 06/22/11 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by writer1
[quote=TomOlympus][quote=writer1][quote=TomOlympus]
If both people are very satisfied with the solution, then it isn't sacrificing or compromising. That's what POJA is all about, finding a solution to a problem that both partners are enthusiastic about.

Why don't you call Dr. Harley and pose this question to him? I think it would make a very interesting topic of conversation for the radio show and then you could get an answer directly from the expert himself.

Yes and no. I can be very satisfied with something and still be sacrificing. If the only way for me to get what I want is to do something for you that you want (even though I don't like that thing), then in my mind I can be satisfied because atleast we are breaking even and both getting something we want in the end.
That is better than neither person getting what they want. As a result, both people are very satisfied.

This still does not address the issue of how to actually make an enthusiastic solution with no sacrifice at all. Still trying to figure that one out.
It seems as if many people here have done that, worked that part of the program in their own marriages. Just trying to figure out what you actually do, to accomplish that.

*I am not quite comfortable calling in to the radio show to speak with him.

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Originally Posted by TomOlympus
*I am not quite comfortable calling in to the radio show to speak with him.

Why not?

Also, you may want to order some of the books, since they go into much more detail than the articles here on the site. "His Needs, Her Needs" is a great place to start, especially in helping you deal with your current situation.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
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DS: 30, 27, 25
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OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
writer1 #2522786 06/22/11 07:44 PM
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Questioning why I'm not comfortable with something doesn't accomplish anything.
It was asked why I am here. Well, I have been posing questions about how to make the enthusiastic agreement happen. I have also been looking for examples of what others have done that make situations like that work.
If people here have actually made these situations work I would believe they have examples for what they actually did. Examples of things they were very far apart on with their spouse and how they came closer together in their agreement.

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Most people would tell you that POJA is something that has to be learned. It takes time. It doesn't always make sense in the beginning. It is generally advised that you start by learning to POJA small things and work your way up from there. Of course it seems overwhelming to try to apply a new concept to a big issue. You aren't familiar with it and you haven't had any experience practicing it. It would look overwhelming and seemingly impossible.

Why don't you start small. The example I've heard used most is practicing POJA at the grocery store. Go shopping together and POJA each thing that goes into the cart. If you both aren't in enthusiastic agreement with the item, it doesn't go in.

Starting out trying to tackle a huge issue using a concept you aren't familiar with and don't entirely understand is asking way too much of anyone.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
writer1 #2522793 06/22/11 08:07 PM
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Everything you just said makes sense. There is a problem I see running into that. Using the grocery store example again. If I tried that with my wife, I know that on anything I would want to put into the cart, she would basically say "I don't care or if you want to." When it comes to small things like that, that is her attitude. It is not a negative attitude, it just truly does not make a difference to her. She would give or take most everything going into the cart. For me, I would question everything going into the cart; some I would agree with, some I would not.
We have had situations just like that in the grocery store. That same idea does spill over into many of those "smaller" issues at home. She will take the stance of it doesn't really make a difference to her. One way or the other wont make her happy or upset, just indifferent. Where for me, I will be affected by those little things.
Does that make sense what I am saying?

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Originally Posted by TomOlympus
Everything you just said makes sense. There is a problem I see running into that. Using the grocery store example again. If I tried that with my wife, I know that on anything I would want to put into the cart, she would basically say "I don't care or if you want to." When it comes to small things like that, that is her attitude. It is not a negative attitude, it just truly does not make a difference to her. She would give or take most everything going into the cart. For me, I would question everything going into the cart; some I would agree with, some I would not.
We have had situations just like that in the grocery store. That same idea does spill over into many of those "smaller" issues at home. She will take the stance of it doesn't really make a difference to her. One way or the other wont make her happy or upset, just indifferent. Where for me, I will be affected by those little things.
Does that make sense what I am saying?

Yeah it makes sense, because my H is kind of like that too. He pretty much doesn't care about the little things.

It really helps if you and your wife read the books together and learn about this stuff as a couple. If she knew about POJA and the other MB concepts, it would be a lot easier for her to get on board and participate in the process.


Me: BS/FWW: 48
BS/WH: 50
DS: 30, 27, 25
DD: 28
OC: 10
BH and I are raising my OC together.
writer1 #2522811 06/22/11 08:54 PM
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I understand that. I have been told many times that my wife should be brought in on the concepts of marriage builders. I do not feel that is an option.

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Originally Posted by TomOlympus
I understand that. I have been told many times that my wife should be brought in on the concepts of marriage builders. I do not feel that is an option.

Why isn't it an option?

I understand you don't want to bring her here because you don't want her to see this thread. (I understand it, I don't agree with it, since it violates the Policy of Radical Honesty, which you also seem to have a poor understanding of).

But that doesn't mean you can't buy the books and read them together with your wife. Everything you need to know is in the books.


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Originally Posted by TomOlympus
Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by TomOlympus
*Breastfeeding will not last until the child is 2 years old. I have never understood children who go that long.

Well, at least it isn't just the topic of marriage that you think you know more about than the experts.

I would think that the experts on this, are women who have been through it. I have known many women who don't breastfeed that long. I am not saying I am right on this topic, I think there are different options/choices, some of which don't make as much sense to me, but unless someone goes to the extreme with breastfeeding (some I think go way to old with the kids), then it is personal preference/opinion.

It is not just women who have been through it that are the experts. Pediatric specialists all over the world agree that bf'ing until age 1 is recommended and age 2 is desired. Not all situations allow for it, but it is certainly the best. And of course it is a parenting choice so it is personal....so is a marriage and yet here you are asking for help in that area. You've been here a long time and refuse all suggestions about how to better your marriage. So I am not surprised at all that you don't 'understand children who go that long.' FTR, 'children' less than 2 years old really aren't making decisions...they generally just want their mom's breast because, hey that is how God made them.

writer1 #2522825 06/22/11 09:08 PM
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You are right, it has a lot to do with her seeing this thread. I can not risk that, for my sake or hers. It also does have to do with Radical Honesty. I do not have a poor understanding of that one. I have been VERY well informed about that, read it multiple times. Of all the MB concepts, it is the one that I could never see myself buying into. Even if I ever bought into everything else, RH, would not ever happen with me, in any relationship I believe.

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You can make this thread disappear. Just ask.

Your poor wife....she has no idea in whom she has put her trust.

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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by TomOlympus
Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
Originally Posted by TomOlympus
*Breastfeeding will not last until the child is 2 years old. I have never understood children who go that long.

Well, at least it isn't just the topic of marriage that you think you know more about than the experts.


I would think that the experts on this, are women who have been through it. I have known many women who don't breastfeed that long. I am not saying I am right on this topic, I think there are different options/choices, some of which don't make as much sense to me, but unless someone goes to the extreme with breastfeeding (some I think go way to old with the kids), then it is personal preference/opinion.

It is not just women who have been through it that are the experts. Pediatric specialists all over the world agree that bf'ing until age 1 is recommended and age 2 is desired. Not all situations allow for it, but it is certainly the best. And of course it is a parenting choice so it is personal....so is a marriage and yet here you are asking for help in that area. You've been here a long time and refuse all suggestions about how to better your marriage. So I am not surprised at all that you don't 'understand children who go that long.' FTR, 'children' less than 2 years old really aren't making decisions...they generally just want their mom's breast because, hey that is how God made them.

Ok, I understand that breastfeeding to around age 1 is recommended, that is understandable and acceptable. I have known many parents who have had their children stop breastfeeding as soon as the child was ready for solid for. Others I have known do some of both. I have heard some say as soon as the child started teething, they came off the breast. Yes, it is personal choice, I do have a hard time understanding why some go way beyond that, but I think those are less common circumstances.
As for the comment of refusing all suggestions here, no I have not. Over the past year, there are some suggestions and ideas that I have used or tried. Some have worked some have not. It is true that I have not used everything, but I am someone that believes there is not just one right way to do anything.

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Originally Posted by TomOlympus
You are right, it has a lot to do with her seeing this thread. I can not risk that, for my sake or hers. It also does have to do with Radical Honesty. I do not have a poor understanding of that one. I have been VERY well informed about that, read it multiple times. Of all the MB concepts, it is the one that I could never see myself buying into. Even if I ever bought into everything else, RH, would not ever happen with me, in any relationship I believe.

Well then, I feel sorry for both you and your wife, because you are preventing yourself from having a truly happy, fulfilling, intimate, romantic marriage.

That's pretty sad, for both of you, but sadder for your wife because she's being lied to and deceived.

And now you've gone and dragged a poor, innocent child into this mess you've created.

Good job!


Me: BS/FWW: 48
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Originally Posted by TomOlympus
It is true that I have not used everything, but I am someone that believes there is not just one right way to do anything.

Seems to be working for you swimmingly, doesn't it?


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Originally Posted by SmilingWoman
You can make this thread disappear. Just ask.

Your poor wife....she has no idea in whom she has put her trust.

There we go, another person who pities my wife and most likely wants to blame me for all that is bad.
My wife loves me. My wife believes I am the best thing to ever happen to her. She is also one of the best things to ever happen to me. Do I think it is the most ideal situation in the world, no. But I can't expect perfection either.

writer1 #2522837 06/22/11 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by writer1
Originally Posted by TomOlympus
You are right, it has a lot to do with her seeing this thread. I can not risk that, for my sake or hers. It also does have to do with Radical Honesty. I do not have a poor understanding of that one. I have been VERY well informed about that, read it multiple times. Of all the MB concepts, it is the one that I could never see myself buying into. Even if I ever bought into everything else, RH, would not ever happen with me, in any relationship I believe.

Well then, I feel sorry for both you and your wife, because you are preventing yourself from having a truly happy, fulfilling, intimate, romantic marriage.

That's pretty sad, for both of you, but sadder for your wife because she's being lied to and deceived.

And now you've gone and dragged a poor, innocent child into this mess you've created.

Good job!

It is not a mess, we have many happy times. I don't believe that any relationship is perfect. You think I am simply lieing and deceiving her, I think I am doing what is best at the time for her. I know I would not want people to be completely honest with me at all times. That is just too harsh to handle all of the time. Sometimes we need people who know us, to tell us what they know we want to hear. It may not be true, but we want to hear it. We either need the confidence boost or we want to avoid the truth.

As for your first statement there; maybe this is not the ideal/best situation, but for right now we make it work and there is no way to tell where we would be if we had not had this marriage. Our lives could be better off or worse off, only God knows. I'm not going to worry about that part, there is no point it doing so. I would rather try and make the best of what we have and try and make the future as good as possible, whatever that might mean.

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***edit***

Moderator's Note: Please email the moderators with questions or concerns regarding edits.

Last edited by McLovin; 06/22/11 10:37 PM.
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Originally Posted by TomOlympus
***edit***

"One of the most important requirements for becoming a member is that you read all of Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. Click the tab "Basic Concepts" above on the header to find them. The purpose of this Forum is to help couples use those Basic Concepts to overcome marital conflicts and restore romantic love.

Many of our members have been in shoes similar if not the same as yours. They begin by asking questions and, with the help of Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts, other members point them in a direction that will solve their problem. After their problem is solved, they often stay on to help new members with their own experience, perspective, and opinion.

Sometimes you may hear alternative opinions that conflict with Dr. Harley's Ten Basic Concepts. These are often raised by those who have not solved their own marital problems, but still feel they are qualified to advise others. When this happens you can expect some members to explain why their approach won't work, and why Marriage Builders� offers a better solution. There are many who are offended when that happens, but please keep in mind that the ultimate purpose of this Forum is to discuss and learn Marriage Builders� concepts."

*********
Maybe it's because you have never before offered anyone advice that is line with Marriage Builder's concepts. You have been confrontational and controversial from the very beginning. The thread you were trying to post on is a newbie in crisis. You may be qualified as an educator, but you are certainly not qualified to help a marriage in crisis.

Perhaps if you actually start learning and using some of the Marriage Builders principles in your own life and start reporting some progress, instead of posting about the same old complaints and issues, you might find yourself in a position where your advice is trusted.

As of now, it is not.

Last edited by McLovin; 06/22/11 10:39 PM. Reason: removing quote

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**EDIT**

Last edited by MBsurvivor; 06/22/11 11:03 PM. Reason: TOS
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