Mimi,

I am headed back tomorrow from my 2 week training exercise, so I havent been able to follow along. So, forgive me if I am not up to speed.

I too have counseled with Steve Harley. I have read all of the stuff from the Harley's. And as you know, my wife is home now and we are working on our recovery.

That being said...it may be time to break out the 2x4 on you (and maybe even LadyLou...sorry girl, most of the time we agree...but Mimi is way to close to screw up now).

Correct me if I am wrong...you sent a Plan B letter, right? It said NC between you and him until OW is gone for good, right? What's the problem here?

Your WH KNOWS the way back. As you said, he remembers your great Plan A. OOOHHHHH how he remembers. Each day that the OW continues to LB and look like the ugly toad, is each day that he can remember his life with you, and the time where you showed him his future with you (Plan A). That is the whole Plan A idea. To put in his mind what can be. But, as Steve Harley has told me before, rarely can you do just Plan A. Most of the time, it requires Plan B to bring them out of the fog.

You know the jargon, so I wont repeat it (about saving your love for him, your husband gets stuck having his needs met by OW, etc). All of this is absolutely true.

So, Mimi has done a great Plan A. Then, she goes and does a reasonably well Plan B. And predictably, your WH is following the script and being led out of the fog. Why is this hapening? Seriously, ask yourself why these events are now happening. Try to put yourself in your husbands shoes. It goes something like this...

Now fully in Plan B, originally (early on), it was a relief to have the constant reminder of his failings (you) in front of him. It was nice to think that he was finally going to be able to be alone with her and maybe see what happens. But, from the moment this quiet time started, something began not to feel right. Left to their own devices, the two of them begin to let their guard down and show their real selves. There is no longer an outside enemy to their relationship.

But wait a minute. Now that you can look at it from the outside...oopppps, I can see a small crack, an enemy within put in place by Mimi. What is that enemy? It is the combination of Plan A in his mind, and that damned Plan B letter (his way out of the mess). In the back of his mind, a crisis is developing. He has seen Mimi at her best. She has now given him a letter explaining how he can have that again. And now she is gone.

Now, he is truly alone with the OW. And she is now at her "best." Problem is, that nagging feeling in the back of his mind that there is something better back home begins to creep into their relationship. Devious, huh? (One note...ENJOY Plan B! You should absolutely enjoy it. Why? As far as I am concerned, it is payback time. For the hurt, pain...for the loss of control over your own world. In Plan B, the power begins to shift back to the BS...so much so that the WS ends up in a position in the end of almost total submission to the will of the BS...more on that below).

So, he unkowingly has been setup for failure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . And so, it is only a matter of time before things make it to critical mass. In your case, I definitely see the needle in the red zone!

So, due to your devious virus you have put into their relationship (Plan A and B), you have set the timer on the destruction of their relationship. It is about ready to blow.

But wait a minute! Just before your WH and OW are about to be emotionally blown out of the water, you want to save him. Why is that? This is your chance at payback. He made his bed, let him lie in it. Let him feel the FULL brunt of the consequences of his actions. Shoot, I LOVE what Orhid did by sending her husband back when he first inquired.

Now why do I say all of this? First of all, it is good for you. It will help you to feel better by knowing that you werent the only one that got to feel pain here. And the beauty of this, it is HIS actions that are causing his own pain.

The second reason to stay the course is that if you rescue him now, he will have learned nothing. He will not have felt the complete utter despair of the guilt of what he has done, and the knowledge of what he is about to lose. I know you love him Mimi, and most of us want to spare our spouses as much pain as possible.

But Mimi, he NEEDS to hurt. He needs to feel this. He needs to understand EXACTLY what damage hus actions have caused. If you try to help him now, he will learn nothing. And you are doomed to repeat it.

How many of us BSs are going to go back to treating our spouses like we treated them before the A? None, I would guess. Why? Because who the heck wants to go back through this pain again. We will do anything to be the spouses that our spouses need. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY MARRIAGES THAT REBUILD AFTER SOMETHING LIKE THIS ACTUALLY END UP STRONGER...IT IS CALLED FEAR OF PAIN. Dr. Harley mentions this on the website here. That once recovery starts, most couples do so with great zeal. Why? Because they want to get as far away from the hurt as possible...and never, ever go back there.

Now, Mimi...your husband isnt stupid (although the choice of an affair, and even the quality of affair partner, may leave his intelligence open to question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). He has read your Plan B letter. He knows the way out. His calls to you, to your son, are cries for help. They are cries for help because he is looking for a way out of his increasing pain anyway he can...except for the only way that you have spelled out. In order to do it your way, he has to fully delve into the pain. He doesnt want to do that.

So, Mimi sends him flowers for the anniversay, of cards, or whatever. And then you spare him the pain. But you are also sparing him the ability to get his life back together. He NEEDS that pain. Sometimes, it isnt love to spare pain. If someone needs a surgery done, there is great pain...but all for that persons good. If you dont get the surgery, you may save some temporary intial pain...but the pain that comes from neglecting what they needed to fix, will come back ten times stronger later.

Mimi, do not spare him the pain. In the middle of my Plan B last December, I made it a point that we would not spend one minute together over Christmas. No family time with her, me and the kids. No sharing of Christmas lists on what to buy the kids. No joint Christmas where we could be together as a family. Nothing. Did it hurt. Sure. But it was the BEST thing I could have done for my marriage.

My wife went off the charts angry when two weeks into Plan B, I would not back down and have a good Christmas together "for the sake of the kids." She went so ballistic that she flung herself at the OM, planned a trip to Florida with the OM over Christmas to meet his family, and actively pushed her situation in order to quickly move her life forward with him.

But all that did was hasten the death of the relationship. The kids were with me Christmas day. The next day, she picked up the kids (since she had by then returned from Florida) and kept them at her apartment for two days. But my kids even said...it wasnt really Christmas. My wife was out of it most of the time, and didnt seem to want to spend much time with them after they opened their presents. She would lay on the couch, and take naps (all of this is very uncharacteristic of her with the kids).

Mimi, her pain had increased. He trip to Florida had been a disaster. She met his family and saw how he acted around them...and didnt like it. She saw how he wasnt being a real dad to his two daughters that were living in Florida with his ex. And one night while there, while they were having sex, the OM called my wife by his ex wife's name <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> .

Her pain was now off the charts. So, after having the kids for two days, she brings them back and wants to talk. I told her that I wasnt going to talk, as was outlined in my PBL. Now, if she was ready to talk NC with OM, then we had something there. She said she needed time, that there was a lot she needed to work through...and couldnt I just be a friend to her and be there for her while she worked it out (gag!)?

Well, NO! That would be what we call ENABELING! I told her OM or MM. I reiterated the PBL...even asking her she needed another copy. She then got angry, saying I never cared for her or her views...that this just proves that I will never be there for her and the changes she has seen in me are false...blah, blah, blah!

I told her "Whatever...honey, you know the way out of this." ANd I turned around and walked back into my house.

For the next 3 weeks, I heard nothing from her. Once or twice a week, she would call or come by to see the kids. I wouldnt talk to her. Just passed the phone to the kids. Or if she was coming to get them, my oldest watched for her and then they ran out to meet her and left with her. I went completely DARK!

Well three weeks later, there is a surprise knock on my door at 8pm at night. It seems my wife has just gotten off work, and wanted to come by to see the kids. So, I let her in, I went into the kitchen and she went downstairs with the kids.

TEN MINUTES later, she comes up (so, she came to see the kids huh?). She wants to talk. She says she wants to discuss some things. I asked what. She started to try to berate me, to get me to engage in a conversation...or an argument iif she could. I told her she had to leave. She asked "What if I dont?" I told her I would call the police. She then said "Well, I guess you are going to have to do that."

So, for the next 4 hours, we sat at my kitchen table while she told me everything, and told me how she wanted to know how to get this all back. I reiterated that she had to have NC with OM...and that she (and then both of us later) needed counseling.

I let her leave without promisisng anything. As a matter of fact, she tried to suck me in again as she went to walk out the door, asking me to give her time. I told her no, that the letter stands. And then I told her that under no circumstances was she to EVER just drop by again. There was a look of surprise in her eyes. Here she thought we had a great conversation, and probably thought she had me back on the reservation and supporting her fence sitting due to our calm conversation (with even some laughter in it). And then I end it by saying nothing has changed, dont drop by again, do not call...until Plan B letter requirements are met.

A week later, she says she in a phone message that she knows she has to end things with OM, even if we do not work out (the first real crack!). I DO NOT RESPOND! Then, she calls and says that she has made an appointment with the same counselor that me and the kids are going to. She asks if I want to do marriage counseling together. I reply back to her that...no, no marriage counseling until we have a marriage. I will go to counseling with her, only in regards to the kids (as they were seeing this counselor also). So, I went to two sessions with her, where she tried to get counselor to enlist me in baking her a large cake <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . The counselor didnt...and I didnt. As a matter of fact, after the second time...I refused to go anymore. She could go with the kidso n her own time, and me on mine.

I was playing hardball. Always the same message. It is shortly thereafter, that in the midst of my wife being VERY sick, and OM LBing her and also leaving her sick and alone to go to some job thing out of town, that I got the call saying that she wants to come home and was ending things with him. A week later, she did end it with him...and a few short weeks later, after some counseling, a few dates, and me allowing her to get thru the worst of withdrawal, we moved her home.

I know this has been long Mimi. But I want you to understand. There is only one way through this now. You spelled it out to him. Dont lie to him. Dont tell him NC with OW or else...and then back down. Keep your word.

I agree with you though. I think you are probably days away from a resolution (he is thinking about that anniversary also!).

Hang tough...stay the course. Stay in Plan B. Stay dark. No calls, presents, slowers, emails...nothing! This is what has gotten him to this point. Dont blow it now.

In His arms.

Mimi,

Sorry to miss out on so much, but I was flying home from my training. Thank God I am home again. But that is another thread.

First off, a quick note. Look at your last post. IT SAYS IT ALL! All in one simple sentence. That sentence tells you where you are, and where you should be. What was that sentence?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He even asked if I would consider coming to live with him in his CONDO. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Read this over and over. Look at it from all angles. The first impression is...ISNT THIS THE PLACE HE CANT LIVE BECAUSE HE FEELS THREATENED BY THE ow. If that were true, then it isnt a very loving act to bring you into a war zone!

Come on. You know the answer. You have known the answer all along. You know Mr. Mimi better than ANYONE! And this is where I am going to enter the fray about Plan B.

You are right about Steve Harley. He is very much into the Harley plan. But he also believes that it has to be massaged...that it isnt all cookie cutter.

In my case, the first problem in Plan B with keeping NC with my wife was the kids. They were living with me, and some contact was required. In order to stay in Plan B, but also be the father to my kids, I had to find a way to stay in NC when NC wasnt possible. Confused? Well, let me explain. Everytime she came by, or called in order to see the kids, "I stayed on message." You will hear me say this over and over throughtout this. Stay on message! She would want to talk about something upcoming with the kids, for example, and then would try to steer the conversation to us or even idle chit-chat. I cut that off IMMEDIATELY! I began to sound like a broken record. I repeated over and over again in these situations, the terms of Plan B and of her recovering any kind of relationship with me. And then I hung up, or I walked out of the room. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS...I ended the discussion and would not let it resume. Even if she wanted to approach this the right way after that, I had decided that when she decided to cross MY BOUNDARIES, there would be a penalty to pay. And that penalty was an immediate cessation of any negotiations and immediately moving back within my front lines (I am going to use military jargon here, because it fits...you are in a war right now Mimi!). Whether you like him or not, tell me what happened with Ronald Reagan at Rekavik with Gorbachev? Well, Gorby comes in wanting to negotiate a reduction in nukes on his own terms. Reagan looks at him, tells him that his plan of trust but verify is the only workable plan...and then Reagan walks out of the meeting. Case closed. No more discussion. The terms of the US were spelled out cleanly. Gorby could go for them, or walk away...but there was now no in between. Same went for my marriage, and where yours is now.

And just like in the example above of Reagan...this is scary stuff. You are in uncharted territory with your husband. You know him, but you still dont know how he is going to react to all of this. There are signs on what is going on. You know all the statistics. You know the success rate of the Harleys. You even know a lot of marriages like the Mortarmans. But there is still the unknown. Where "nukes" can be launched, and life as you know it ends.

But just as in Reagans case, I think you are going to find that negotiating from a position of strength is the ONLY way that your husband is going to come back. My wife said early on in our recovery that one of the first glimpses out of the fog was when I began to stand up to her. I asked her when that was. Know when? When I started Plan B!! She began to have respect for me again. She began to be able to hold up the life she was living and start to seethat it did not even compare with the life she had, or could have, with me. But it wasnt an easy process.

In the analogy with Reagan...after Reagan walked out, Gorby did send couriers over, asking to negotiate, coming up with alternative plans. At one point, he even came up with a plan that was 99% what Reagan had asked for. So, why did Reagan not go for it? Because the same reason that YOU MUST NOT BACK DOWN! It is a ploy. Your husband is sincere, so was Gorby. But, they are sincerely wrong. You have spelled out the way back in clear terms. And you walked out of the negotiating room.

The next sound you want to hear is the "courier" stating that he has met your demands. Then and only then will you walk back into that room and begin negotiating on HOW this will all be played out.

Now, I will pul away from my good friend Chris here for a minute. I know where his heart is, and you need to heed what he is saying. YOU CANNOT BACK DOWN. But, I have found in diplomatic, or military negotiations, there must always be a channel for the "enemy" to send info and discuss options. You dont have to reply, just as Reagan didnt reply to Gorbys couriers, except to say that Reagan had spelled out the plan...take it or leave it.

You must massage Plan B...but all the time having your head right where Chris is talking about...you are in Plan B. I did not at the time think that my three or four "talks" with my wife during Plan B, was necessarily a bad thing. Sure, I had broken NC. But, let me show you in a military sense, what you are in for.

You are sitting across an open field from the enemy. You hve battled this enemy for awhile. The enemy has been sneaky, and at times, waved the surrender flag, only to shoot at you when you get out of your foxhole and try to meet him halfway across that field.

You have now dropped leaflets (Plan B Letter) on the other side, spelling out how any terms or surrender will be accepted. And the fact that only the complete surrender will be accepted. And then you sit in your hole and wait.

The enemy waves the white flag. What do you do? if you stick to a pure Plan B, then you just sit there because you have no communication, and have no idea if he is meeting your terms of surrender (laying down arms, etc). So, the enemy gets NO response to his flag, gets scared, and crawls back into his hole. He has no idea what to do next.

Now, here is how we handle this (and how I handled my wife). The white flag goes up. I immediately call out my translator (who speaks fogese!) and I begin to broadcast the PBL over and over again. This is a one way communication. It lays out what he must do (lay down his arms, come out with hands up, proceed to the middle of the field, lay down in the prone position, etc). I do not get in a discussion with him. The PBL has already spelled everythign out. He has been promised fair treatment, as long as he adheres to the provisions of the PBL.

Mimi, make no mistake...what you are asking for is the surrender of your husband. Plain and simple. You have the power now. As is evidenced by his actions lately, HE KNOWS HE HAS LOST THE WAR! But even with that knowledge, he is still unsure of your treatment of him, how he will be treated as a POW. Little does he know that you wont treat him as a POW, but instead as the Prodigal son, as he came home.

But for now, he only speaks Fogese. He is scared. His whole world, his reality, his "truth," has now been turned upside down AGAIN. Nothing makes sense to him. Does it make any sense to leave someone out there, alone and afraid, with no comfortable way out.

Now, some will say "Well, he has the letter." Look, that letter is probably in his pocket, or thrown on the ground. In his mind, he remembers what he read. But he still doesnt believe it. But he knows he has no other way. So he reaches out to you, to find a comfortable way for him to come out. He will broadcast back to your lines certain demands of his own, ones that will make him less scared. But remember, he is the one that lost. He is surrendering, not you!. All that should be broadcast back to him is the same boring, tired, worn out message "NC with OW, NC letter, counseling, blah, blah, blah." After awhile, as he looks around at his hopeless position, as he continually hears everytime he contacts you the same message, he realizes "What choice do I have? If I stay, I die. If I go, I MIGHT die." He must decide whether or not he can trust you. Plan A put that trust in his mind and heart. And so, he lays down his arms, puts his hands in the air, and walks home.

I am tearing up as I write this. This is not natural! For the past months, this same person was destroying you, bombarding you with pain, taking your life away. And now, he has the audacity to want to negotiate. And after he realizes that he can no longer fight this, now you have to open your arms and bring him home. The parrallel between this and the end of the Civil War (or the War of Northern Aggression as we call it here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). How do you one day fight to the death, and the next day become brothers and friends? Believe me, postwar reconstruction IS the hardest part! I am living it.

To sum this up, I have to slightly disagree with Chris, only in this one instance. He is right...YOU MUST STICK WITH PLAN B! You must not back down. there is now only one safe way back for you, and even for him. You see, unless he comes back on your terms, you will always question whether he is back for good. And you will take out your hurt on him. When he surrenders, he is going to try to trust you not to destroy him. It is then that you show the grace of God and dont give him what he deserves!

But the disagreement I have is that while maintaining NC with the "enemy" is what you are doing, there still must be diplomatic channels. At first the enmy will try to abuse those channels, just as my wife tried on her visits. It is then that you reiterate your demands, and show the courier the door. After awhile, the enemy will see that these channels are only one way...surrender or "die." Of course, for all the hall monitors here, I AM NOT ADVOCATING VIOLENCE...I am just using an analogy to get my point across.

Without that open channel, he cant test the waters to see if you mean it. He cant get thru the process that he needs to go thru in order to be ready to give up. He is afraid, panicked and under seige right now. He needs to hear that message over and over again.

So, my advice? Plan B, Plan B, Plan B. And if he calls, or tries to make contact, send him the message..."Your safety is assured if you lay down your arms, proceed forward with your hands on your head, and lay down in the middle of the field." Play it over and over again.

Mimi, you are doing great. I only write this long because you are the closest on this website to making it! You really are.Tha tscared man is in his foxhole, cowering in fear. not from some lame OW. He fears you! He fears what he would do to himself if he were in your shoes. Stand firm. and then when he walks thru the front door with his hands up, and the OW gone, then you can show him just what a woman he has!

I am praying. Stay on your knees Mimi. God will get the message to him.

In His arms.

Chris and Salerio,

I think we are closer than we think. In my last post, I was focusing on the effects of Plan B on the WS. Of course, Plan B is also for the BS.

While the affair is in full swing, Plan B is meant to pull back, to remove all ENs being met by the BS. it is also meant to protect the BS, and whatever remaining love they have for the WS. Now we all know this.

It is true that Mimi, while doing a good Plan B, fascilates when confronted by her husband. And we all agree that this is the wrong approach in Plan B. But there comes a time when Plan B will end.

The first way will be if the BS has run out of love. Then it is off to Plan D, and a new life. Plan B prepared them for that. For the WS that just will not come back, then this is the way out.

The other way out of Plan B is reconciliation. But the question is, how do you proceed to Plan R? Of course, there must be a meeting of the terms of surrender (PBL). But during that process, there are moments of tension. Moments where the WS tries to negotiate these terms. Moments where the BS doesnt quite believe this is all true. Both parties are taking huge risks at this point.

Up until now, Plan B had been protecting the BS. But in order to move to Plan R, there is a period of time where transition happens. It is here where we take the chance on getting burned. It is here where we take the chance, just like the Marines in Iraq, when the enemy is giving up, and then fakes it and shoots back.

There is going to come a time that Mimi will have to take a chance. Not yet, but shortly. It will be dangerous, and she will be opening herself to being destroyed again. This is why I believe, even without kids, that there must be diplomatic channels. Where info FROM the WS can move to the BS. And where the PBL, terms of surrender if you will, can be transmitted back continually.

Both of you...I believe that Mimi hasnt doen such a great job in this period. That is why she has gotten burned before. You are right. She must shut down and completely pull back until the terms are met.

But she also must allow that info to flow from him. It is the only way he will work through this final period. If she can stay seperated fro mthe issue, just keep braodcasting the terms of surrender, then she will be protecting herself as much as she can during this transition period. Sure there are some risks. But at the point that the relationship appears to be over with the OW, and appears that the WH is trying to make his way back, communication must open again, but only within the limited extent of repeating the conditions of reconciliation.

Can Mimi do this? I dont know. You are right that she has fallen down several times. But if Mimi wants this all to end, it will happen now. It appears that she has everything right where she wants it. If she does this right, I believe we are talking days, even a few weeks, before her husband surrenders.

But Mimi, if you continue to break your own NC, and talk to him about non-PBL issues...if you continue to engage him in possibilities outside of what you have laid out in the PBL, then you will extend this pain further for BOTH of you. And you may miss your opportunity completely.

Stay in NC. Stay in Plan B until the conditions are met. But, when it appears he wants to talk surrender, then listen to him. It may be the time that he is actually ready to give up. If it isnt, do as I did...reiterate the surrender terms, and then hang up the phone or walk out.

Sure, this will hurt. This transition period will hurt because it causes you to come out of your comfort zone. But you will have to do so.

So, stay dark. No contact until he is ready to meet your terms. If he approaches you on those terms, listen to him. And if he isnt ready to meet them, then respectfully point him towards the PBL. And then wait until his next breakthrough.

With my wife, this process of her negotiating, and then me sending her on her way, only for her to come back with another proposal, was over about 4 weeks. She would ask for such things as if I could just be her friend while she worked thru ending things. You see, she was trying to find the easy way out. Of course, I just told her that I couldnt do that. That there was only one way back. She cussed at me, said I would never accept her back, that I could never be her true friend, that I was blowing the chance for us to get back together. But I stayed on message and walked out.

Now, did that hurt? Sure. Did I have doubts about my plan? Sure. There were times that I wanted to just accept her terms, to be her friend while she worked thru it. I didnt want to lose her.

But some wise sages on this site kept me straight and let me understand that if I accepted anything less than PBL, then I could lose her forever. This is what Chris and Salerio are trying to say to you. Do this right, and it appears that you will have your marriage back shortly. Mess this up, and you could be in for a lot more pain.

Alway keep in your mind that you are in Plan B. When you hear from him, or about him, the only thing you are looking for is him agreeing to the terms of surrender. if it doesnt sound or look like that, then immediately reject it and pull back.

I thin kyou are in the transition period. I think he has made up his mind about the OW. And even about you. But he doesnt know how to do this. You will have to lead him the rest of the way home. You know how that is done. Do not waver. Everyone wants to think that their case is the special one, the one where the plan wont work. Mimi...your husband will react to this the same way my wife did, and many others did. Trust that.

In His arms.