It was more about the friendship, the sex was what she pushed for, again, I have the emails that back that up from when I hacked into their secret account. So yes I understand how that feels, she was my closest friend once and I missed her terribly once she had crossed that boundary and our friendship became impossible.

It's hard to loose a friend, even if it was a friendship that shouldn't have happened. He's been my best friend for 23 years, I know him well and how deeply he values friendship as he doesn't make friends easily, so of course I understand what a hard place he is in.

My fear is that if you two keep dwelling on the "tragedy how you both lost a dear friend" you will enable the contact to reoccur and end up in false recovery. It is good that you lost this "friend"! He is obviously in withdrawal, craving on "friend's qualities" would make the process endless.


When you have all the answers to your questions. Only you will know when you have all the answers.

Only you can tell what it takes from him to make you feel safe again. You have to be honest about these things and to yourself - what it takes from his part to help you? You seem to struggle with what people here call 'just compensation'. You need him to be remorseful, you need him to talk about A, you need answers - yet you choose not to communicate it to him. You are understanding about his pain, and

he is taking advantage of that.

Indeed it is good that this friend was lost, she is a very nasty piece of work, and no we don't dwell on the loss, we don't talk about it, we are working on building, re building things.

Yes I need him to be remorseful, I just don't think he's there yet, don't think he has any real understanding, he has said things like it was mainly phone calls with occasional meetings. He is still in a place where he is making less of it, I think he's deeply ashamed of some of it and is still blaming me for some of it too.

Yes I need compensation but mostly I think I just need time to feel safer and more secure. He does try but isn't open to talking about what I need. Yes I know he should but he isn't.

I don't know about contact, if she wants to get hold of him, she can, his company phone no is public, I don't have any evidence of contact and nothing that says he really wants contact.

I guess one of the biggest difficulties is that I don't feel much anger, throughout the abiding emotion for me has been sadness and hurt. I don't do angry and find just opening the discussion difficult as he gets frustrated and angry, it spoils things and I don't need that. I like calm and peaceful, I like the loving stuff he does, I wish he would discuss things but he does actions not words.

Some days I am fine, I understand where he is and am patient, other days less so with more what if's.

What a rollercoaster he has put me on yet I don't find it easy to challenge him ..... I know I need to, just not yet!

OK so I have asked him if we can make some time to talk. About forwards not backwards and the things I need to make me safe. I have printed out the ENQ and will fill mine before I talk to him, I really have enough knowledge about the A although there are still things I don;t know, they don't worry me. They are past and have no impact on now. He can carry that one.

He has agreed and we are talking on Thursday evening after work, so hints and tips greatly appreciated. I will not shout or loose my temper. I may shake!!

That is good. Turn your cells, TVs off, then you can talk without disruptions. I suggest you make a list of things you want to talk about and try to stick to it. Focus on how you feel and how you would like things to be, what you need for your safety and well-being.

Cant we just Forgive and Forget Print and use this maybe.
I have found that a shock collar is also a good training tool for a WS. You can buy them at petsmart. Worth every dime.

Lolo Hils, I think that might be a fun answer, I like the idea of a shick collar!

Yes I have already printed this out, will give him that, discuss my ENQ and give him one and ask him to fill it out and then ask for another discussion date in a week to give him time!!

See I can plan!!

Out looking for a shock collar!

WH is horribily busy with work, bringing it home all week, very stressed, have not mentioned the agreement he had to talk tomoro night, will just go ahead with it.

Since he agreed to talk I have been quiet and gentle, not making waves and making life lovely for him, I am a little anxious about talking as previously, whenever I have brought stuff up, even being calm, it's never the right time!! Hoping that having made an appointment may make things easier.

Life is good when it's quiet, loving and respectful, really hope that this isn't a mistake to rake over old coals, even when the intention is forward, the temptation to get a few in, so to speak, is there.

Breathing in and out!!

Useful time spent talking and making plans, I feel as though we are on the way to being better than we have ever been, I hope he finally gets it, I think he might have.

We did the ENQ, that all went as expected, ie he hated doing it but by using it as a framework for the discussion it was very helpful. No major suprises, we are and always have been very well matched and have the same aims and goals.

I think the A can go away now. Although she can still contact him, she hasn't for 5 months and we have agreed that any contact he will tell me and we will POJA any response. That would also stop me going off the deep end too and using any contact as an opportunity to get my claws out. Not helpful!!

I think he understands the pain bit a bit better and I understand him better too.......so

Onwards and upwards!! We do love each other and want to be together, I guess thats the most important thing today.

It has to be dealt seriously. How can she contact him? Why haven't to taken care of these holes? Does your H still has the same phone number, e-mail account, etc which she knows? You need to change them. It is not healthy for you to wait and see whether she will step over the line and then deal with it.


That is good, but this mantra may also lead you to false recovery, because you may use it to become excusing and overlooking things and he may use it to become lazy.

The most important thing is your PLAN how you will protect each other and take care of each other (read this). When there has been an affair, there are certain steps you need to take:
a) take care of those loopholes through which OW can have contact with him and reassuring NC for LIFE.
b) setting up extraordinary precautions (read this, I bumped it up for you) how to avoid another affair happen in the future and agreeing on boundaries in marriage ("Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend)
c) avoid LBs and meet each others ENs.

She can still contact him as his work number is public, nothing we can do about that but we have agreed that should she contact then we will POJA any response, should she get through to him he will simply end the call and remind her that she has been told not to contact. No I know it's not ideal but can't change the business number and it's a small business.Same with the work email it's on the website, needs to be for clients.

He does still care for her, it was a LTA but he sees the damage it did to all concerned, and does not want to risk what we have. He never stopped loving me, I believe that, she wanted different things and he's a man.....offered a s**g on a plate.....it was hard to resist and then he would beat himself up but was unable to end it, he regrets that. (A step on the road to remorse!!)

We are avoiding LBs (hence setting up a time to talk and making it time limited and structured so that it didn't have the chance to deteriorate into a row) and when we looked at the EN's we have the same ones and are getting them met in ways we like. Yes there are bits to tweak but we are a work in progress.

He is a very isolated man, he isn't very sociable and I guess there are potential risks but the EP's are in place and I don't bring friends home any more which was how he met Ginge! There will always be opportunities of course but he is very clear how close I came to walking and that any repeat and I shall walk in order to protect myself. It's not what I want and it's certainly not what he wants.

I don't see either of us getting complacent or failing to see each others needs at the moment. I still wish he was more talkative, I am still healing and have a way to go yet but it feels OK today.

Thanks for your comments, it will be a cold day in hell before I let my guard down around him though!!

Update:

Things seem to be going well, I still struggle with the SF, am willing and an active participant but the emotional connection still missing for me. I don't really know how to get through it but keep on keeping on. Keeping my eyes open seems to help, stops the movies playing so that has to be good!!

He doesn't talk about how he is feeling, just seems to be getting on with things. We spend lots of time together generally tho currently he is swamped with work so that makes it difficult but we both took a day off last week and went shopping for nice things for the house, had lunch, enjoyed the sunshine and each others company. In the evening we cooked together and watched a film. I think we are probably getting more than the 15-20 UA hours and enjoy being together.

Ginge is most days just a nagging ache at the back of my head, if I mention her I always now refer to her as D's wife, he finds that quite amusing but I think sees why. NC seems to still be in place and he has said that he is relieved she seems to have gone.

I am still in occasional contact with Ginge's H, he still hasn't returned home and is not sure what he wants to do but they have a little girl so he may. She seems to be making efforts to make it work........who knows ........or even cares how miserable she is!!

I have learned so much here, realised how many mistakes I made that enabled it to continue for sooooo long. For that tho I thank you all and while I don't always agree with the attitudes, the effects of following a plan are beginning to pay off.

I do know tho that however good it gets here, the second I know he is back in contact I walk, not a threat, a fact. He knows this. The resolve is good and makes me feel better.

Today is a good day, even tho he is away for 3 nights this week, I miss him, but also like having the house to myself! He goes away about once every 2 years so it's not a problem.

This week I have been mainly working on letting go.

I have spent lots of time wishing all sorts of evil on Ginge, planning and plotting what I would do etc and at times it has been quite entertaining and diverting. However there is a very real possibility that I may come across her professionally and I do wonder what I would do in that situation.

I am a trainer for Child Protection, some of my courses are mandatory and she will at some point have to attend as she works for the same Local Authority. Its a huge geographical area so I haven't seem her in years, but it's a possibility.

Assuming that she and WH are not in contact, and I have no reason to believe they are currently, (but nothing would preclude a secret email addy used from work computer which I have no access to or indeed a pay as you go phone kept at work)she wouldn't know which courses I was running and where in the county to avoid me, and I think she wants to avoid me, at least if she has half a brain she does anyway.

WH is still not talking much, we don't mention the A, like I said I don't have all the details, but i have enough, he is kind, considerate and gentle, he seeks out opportunities to do nice things, hence actions v words, and although not on board with MB, as such, in that he isn't interested in reading stuff, radio etc he is fine with the principals and spending UA time together.

I love him, I can't imagine my life without him and I have a nice life with him, but I am not in love with him.

I feel as though I am still very much protecting myself and am ready to leave if/when I find out he is back in contact.

I wish that bit was different.

I wish I didn't have to be ready to go and be OK if he's stupid enough to be back in contact.

I wish I could relax a bit!

Thanks if anyone reads this, just needed a bit of a ramble!

Oh b*****r I gone and done a LB

Out for a drive, pass where his counsellor is, stop to show me an Art gallery he's noticed.....can't help myself, ask about his IC and off we went.......

Not angry just ended up talking about the A, ginge, he got all upset and defensive, feels got at, still NC and that worries him as she might not be all right.....blah blah blah, like I care, but instead of keeping it down, I said it, out loud.

Is there a quicker way to shut him up, make him cry, be out of sorts for the rest of the day. He is still in poor me mode 6 months in, at least when I trigger him. Oh b*****r. And then I said some days it all just feels too hard and that I want to walk, to which he replied why don't you then?

It wasn't quite the response I was hoping for!

And I have a filthy cold and so have no wish for SF!!

We have talked more and I tried to explain how shut out I feel from whats going on and how I try not to let the bitterness out when he does let me in a bit. We had a hug and a kiss.

Might be a good time to try MC, at least there would be a safe forum to explore things.

Anyone in the UK know of any in the NW!!

Why don't you and your husband try counseling with the Harley's? ALthough it is over the phone, Steve is extremely helpful and worth every $.

There is no way that WH would use counselling over the phone, and without wishing to insult anyone, not with an american (don't ask, it's complicated!!) and to be honest I am OK most of the time and generally find a good place in my head that allows for all the other stuff that is good to happen.

I think his real problem is that in his head, this wasn't an affair, he was trying to be a friend, it lasted 6 years, and he never wanted her as more that a friend, she wanted more and so they were in a very dysfunctional situation. As she was his friend, he wants to continue to help her but understands that any contact from him to her would give her the wrong message (and I would go as it wouldn't be long before we were back where we were in September!). I know my H and do understand him, even though he had crap boundaries, he was genuine in what he wanted. And it wasn't the odd sweaty session. Although they happened, she led that side (I know I saw the emails)and he was too weak to say no. Something about boundaries i think!!

He has stopped blaming me for it all now which is progress, he is now blaming her more, soon he might take a look at himself.

Patience taker, patience

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7100_counselor.html

I do not have any suggestions then for a MC. But read this article to make sure you find one that can help you and your marriage.

Oh I don't know if this should be here or on the rants thread.

It is OW child's birthday in the next couple of days. This child was a major part of his relationship with Ginge and he did adore the kid (Ginge kid, goofy, not attractive but there you go....).

He said last night he wanted to send the child a birthday card/gift.

I was proud of not AOing, just said it wasn't possible.....but for f'sake. when will the stupid stupid man ever understand NC for life means NC for life, with the brat as well as with the b***H.

ahhhhhhhh

Then cos I had a cold, feeling rough and very tired after work, he makes a cup of tea and cuddles me.I know he is trying (very trying) but sometimes it's hard to work out what goes on in that addled head.

sometimes the anger I have just begs to be let loose. Maybe I am hitting the 6 month anger thing but it does make me wanna scream.

when will the idiot ever get it. It's over with ginge, if thats not what he wants then it's over with me.

I think thats simple. Why does he need to struggle

OK rant over!

mmmm not updated for a while, things ticking along I think, no drama or upheaval.

Found myself in an odd place where I really was feeling like I am waiting for the other shoe to drop and that I have to be ready and OK to simply go if he picks up contact with ginge again. So I felt as though I was simply marking time, enjoying all the good stuff but with no real expectation that it would last.

Been sitting with that for a couple of weeks now. Bit like him screwing up is inevitable cos he is such a KISA and she is such a DID.

Then a good friend pointed out that she is also a Princess, her KISA told his wife that he S*****g her in a public toilet in broad daylight. Said wife then told Ginge's H.

Therefore he has told the dirtiest secret, I told her H, she is in all likelihood terrified about who else I told but knows could will make that very public knowledge. She is so aware of her image as a yummy mummy.

She is frightened but also appalled he could betray her in that way. Knows that he will tell if she contacts.

Poor silly b***H

She lost everything when the Karma bus hit town.

He is trying so hard in his own stubborn and simple way, he is still a plonker, but he's my plonker!!

Still a bit stuck with the feelings of this all being temporary, that sooner or later he will tell me he is back in contact, or I will find out.

And have to leave.

And I don't want to but equally can not and will not go back to 3 in my marriage.

And what's happening at home is good.

It's a very sad place to be, because also when I lift my head up and look around, it's all wonderful. Good friends with each other, good SF, good RC, lots of affection. nothing to grumble about........

and still the feeling of temporariness stays.

Ideas........... suggestions...........kick up the A**s???