To answer to the question in your thread title - no, it is not unreasonable demand.

Respect yourself.

The trinkets would be a major trigger for me every day.

For example, I knew the box for the affair phone was in the attic. I had mentioned in passing several times to my FWH that it bothered me it was there. He said he tossed it way back and didn't know if he could get to it (he never tried). I finally had a breakdown and in a VERY AO. I told him he should have gotten his tail up there and figured out how to get it down before I burnt the house down around it to get to it.

It was not really important to him and that hurt. He should have went out of his way to get rid of EVERYTHING that reminded me of how far he went to keep the affair going.

The condom in the center console of the car is anouther.......we have sold that car but I still think about the condom that is still in that console.

Im a BS and still think of the trinkets so I can imagine he would think of them all the time knowing he still has them. You would also come to resent him for wanting hem and that would hurt recovery even if he never thougt of them again.

Remember you would still be paying for the box which is a reminder itself of what is in the box. Also if one of you wanted to get rid of it, you would have to trigger the other just to open it.

if WH needs you to demonstrate that you don't have to "control everything" he could choose almost anything - how you have the spice rack arranged alphabetically or having meatloaf every Tuesday. Tell him to select something else, something that doesnt have to remind you how cruel and selfish he is.

In recovery, WH is the doctor & you are the patient. What he is suggesting not only does not help heal the wounds he inflicted, it makes them worse. This is not about you being controlling, it is about him making a crucial gesture - the first of many hundreds he will have to make - in order to create an environment where recovery is possible.

Something is going to get thrown out here. Its up to WH whether it ends up being his trinkets of junk or him.

That's exactly my point - that he is not yet a man that you can build a marriage with, and that you should NOT settle for anything less.


YES - because as long as he refuses, he's sending you the very clear message that his memories with the homewrecker are more important to him than protecting YOUR feelings. And again, you cannot build a life and family with a man who thinks so little of you.

You seem to feel that since things are at least "better", you should settle for that and hope they gradually get better later on. NO, NO, and NO.

We are trying to tell you that if you settle for this now, you will only be telling this man that you WILL tolerate this kind of cruel behaviour and you WILL allow him to put his feelings for the ho over his feelings for you - because no matter what you might say, you ARE allowing this.

So Don't Allow It! He has to earn his way back to you, and rubbing his girlfriend's possessions in your face is not the way to do that. Is it?

Did your WH live with OW for the 9 months of separation?
What i do not understand about these WS that want to come back after a separation is....why do they really want to put the BS thru grief again if they are not really done with the A?
Dr. H says that A will die a natural death. WHat we have to realize here is that it takes a long time for the natural death to occur because of the drama the A lives on. The AP might break up several times and then get back together for a while to later break up again
This fuels their passion and the A. Till the negatives outweigh the positives and the A collapses and the AP can't stand eachother.
That is where WH should be.
If he wants to keep trinkets he is not there yet. He is still fantasizing about her.
Let's not forget that OW, in comparison to us, is still the fantasy woman, the "girlfriend" who makes WH feel wanted and young.
We BS are pretty much at our wits ends and very disillusioned
by the time these WHs want to make a comeback. We just do not have it in us to be what OW is to WH.
And why would we want to?
blessing

Thank you to all of you for your responses. I guess I knew it in my heart, but needed some validation. The worst thing is, we had a "false recovery," I guess. For a few months, he was the most amazing husband and father he's ever been. But he kept a thread of contact to the bimbo, and when we had a couple of bad days, he left. It took 6 months away from home for him to really be back into the affair full-fledged. Heartbreaking.

No, he doesn't live with her. She lives with her husband and children, a very cushy life, in another state. (Yes, her husband knows - knew months before I did. He lets her stay, and fills in all those needs my husband could never possibly meet. If he kicked her out, it would be all over too, but he won't). So it's all fantasy, vacation, escape, yo-yo up and down. Ridiculous, addictive nightmare. If my husband had lived with her the whole time, I think it would be long since over. He totally lost the taste for her once, saw the stupidity, everything. But she still sent texts and emails, and eventually, he fell. I guess a tiny part of me hoped that if he came home, away from her again, he would see the value in his marriage and family again, and go back to who he was for those few months. It's unbelievable how horrible this has made him. I barely recognize him anymore. He doesn't even care about the kids anymore. So much worse than I ever imagined possible.

But you are all right. I can't fix it. There's no hope until something huge changes in him. I filed for divorce - most difficult, heart-wrenching, horrible decision of my life, but it's finally done. It's been a 2-year nightmare roller coaster. Thanks for all the advice and support.

Who told you this? WH? OW?

If you have not heard it from OWHs mouth directly then it is most probably a lie.

(((((((((HUGS)))))))))))

I'm sorry rainy, it's never easy.

Rainy,

Often nothing changes until the BS gets tough like you have just done. There is a chance that he may come around now that he sees you will no longer give him his cake fix.

I would question that story about OW BH until you hear it from BH own mouth. Does he know that the A picked up again?

FWIW, I was told pretty much the same thing about OW BH and later found out it was just another lie.

Have you gone into a Plan B during Plan D? How are you recovering yourself through this?

(((HUGS)))

Yes, I'm sure about the OW BH. I've talked to him numerous times, and finally just stopped. It only frustrates me. No idea what's in his head. No, I should have gone into Plan B long ago, and didn't. In fact, I posted a question on the "Plan C" thread, which I unwittingly entered instead.

I have no idea what to do at this point. Everything is just pain and awfulness. He can't remember any of the good, let alone the love, that he saw and felt here months ago, and I barely can. Plan B at this point, just ends it all with a dark abyss nightmare - no good memories or feelings. Going to be very hard to do that with teenagers too. I can't keep my husband from contacting me, or force him to stay away - my son drags him in when he gets disgruntled enough with me. The complications are endless. The whole thing is a mess that I have no idea how to clean up, and misery for all of us that I never imagined.

How do I recover? It takes everything in me just to drag myself out of bed in the morning, tread water, and try to keep my kids from going under. I'm on depression meds, I still go to work, take care of the kids, try to find some happiness in life - but it's all a facade to cover misery. I only keep it up for my kids, and they're not completely fooled, by any means. We all try to find happiness where we can and keep going. But it totally sucks, and I can't imagine how any of us are ever going to "recover." (Although I don't tell my kids that).

It's worse than death. Life would be so much easier if he had just died instead. I don't mean I wish him dead (well, maybe once in awhile), but it would be a relief to grieve and get on with life without having to see him - see the mess he's made of his own life and everyone else's. To be able to tell my kids their dad died, he didn't choose it, we know where he is and that he loves us would be a relief. Instead of them knowing their father willfully abandoned them for some homewrecking *?#@!, quit caring about their lives, and just isn't the man he used to be. I quit even reassuring the kids that he loves them because they kept getting mad at me over it, saying different versions of, "If Dad loved us, he wouldn't have done this." I never verbally acknowledged it, but they're right. Neither his words nor his actions communicate any sort of love to them. He just doesn't care about anything anymore. I didn't have the strength to keep trying to convince them of something that none of us really believe anymore, even if I wish with everything in me that they could believe it.

My husband wants to fight me on everything on the divorce now - everything he said he'd agree to peacefully before. Told me flat out he had no interest in seeing the kids, was moving to be with his girlfriend, and now wants to fight me to get the kids part time, just to prove he can. (It would be different if it was about love for the kids, not controlling and threatening me. But the OW won't even "allow" him to respond to a text message from one of his kids when he's with her. If he's on vacation with her, he will completely ignore anything even from his own children until he's back home - it is beyond horrible).

So do you all still recommend going forward with the divorce nightmare? Or would you just file for legal separation to get things outlined, get my space, and give him time to either come around, or be willing to settle the divorce more reasonably? Wait and see if this ridiculous affair somehow manages to "die a natural death?" Although, I'm not sure how it will, with all the up and down, in and out drama, her living far away to make it glamorous, her husband meeting all the needs my husband can't or won't, and them not having to do any real life together. I don't know - maybe a separation or divorce (if I can ever get a divorce over with) would change things for my husband enough to make him start to feel some cost in all of this.

Sorry, I'm just a wreck. The worst thing has been watching what this has done to my children - I have 4 of them, ages 11 to 19. It's been awful. They are no longer the same people, either. It's altered all of us, sadly. I'm doing everything I can think of for them, but I can't stop the nightmare or the pain.

Get into a dark Plan B immediately. Your WH is using you as his punching bag because all in his life is not happy and fun.

This kind of anger seeps in all parts of the life. Maybe he hates OWH because he is making their life hell. Who knows!!

I am 100% positive anger at this level cannot last. It will either put them in the hospital or in the grave. It weighs very heavy on the heart.

Give him the space and get yourself healthy. My WH is still very angry. I don't care anymore. My Plan B is allowing me to get to a great place. I never thought I would actually feel great without him today.

Today I no longer need him in my life. I want to save my marriage and want him to be my husband. I don't need him, and I am finding myself again.

Thinking of him being with another woman is getting less and less. OW has nothing on me, and I am coming out a much better person.

I have my integrity, character, and dignity intact. That is all that matters today.

Go very very dark and let OW get the anger. She will get it and get it full force. Get out of the way and things will crumble much quicker than you can imagine.

Tough~

You are right. I am totally the scapegoat for all of his anger, the justification for all of his behavior, all of it. Thank you. But how do I do Plan B?

It's more complicated - we left our big, nice house (who cares, at this point, about a big nice house - it was a relief to leave) and the kids and I are cramped in a tiny apt. When my WH was being kinder, he was trying to help me get into a small, more affordable house with the kids, so they would have some stability (I do care about that - just my kids feeling some security, being in a safe place).

Bottom line - offer's in, money's down, financing's approved, but now the mortgage company wants a divorce decree or legal separation in order to approve my financing (stating that my WH will pay me enough money, in addition to my income, that I can qualify, and that he will take responsibility for our home together that I can't pay for). We were fortunate to be able to finally rent the other house out for close to what we owe on the monthly payment.

So I have to take immediate legal action (and get my husband to sign it - thats the trick) or lose the house, the money, and the approval - all of which I spent 4 months on, and can't make up for. My husband gave me my half of his quite humble retirement account to put down on it (as a loan that gets paid back to him - stupid of me to agree to that). There's no more money to put down on a house. We are upside down in the other one.

Would you try to push the divorce through? Get him to come to a settlement agreement - under pressure? Or try to do a legal separation instead - maybe less complicated and quicker? Is that enough Plan B, or do I just need to divorce him and cut all ties now, with it being this ugly? I feel totally lost, confused, and unable to make a clear decision on something this huge and awful.

Click on the Art of War thread below � and I would highly recommend you get a copy of Sun Tzu�s Art of War for this divorce.

A couple of quotes applicable to you.

� He who is prudent and lies in wait for an enemy who is not, will be victorious�


� If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.�

� If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected�

�If you are capable appear incapable, if capable appear incapable.�

�The general who makes many calculations in his temple, before battle will be victorious. The general who makes none will lose all.�

What you say about OW not letting him text his children is very encouraging. She is insecure. The level of his anger too also shows that he is unhappy, that he is not a cool collected person. He is not capable of doing anything right.

They will tear each other apart with their collective insecurities once you stop being their common enemy.

Cause them to divide. Right now you are causing them to unite.

IMO opinion, a plan B will give you mystery, strength.

Without you in the picture, watching their little fantasy, they will squabble like toddlers.

I personally have only used AoW for Paln B - to attack the affair, keep myself safe from anger and being dragged odwn etc...

Peachyisback has used it for a divorce though and will be able to give excellent advice....

They will tear each other apart with their collective insecurities once you stop being their common enemy.

Cause them to divide. Right now you are causing them to unite.




Some excellent points. These, and many others. Thank you.

Rainysweet, I am about to go into Plan B for the first time, so reading your thread had been quite enlightening. I am so, so sorry we are all here and have to meet this way...

I have a question for Peachyisback and IndieGirl. It was just mentioned on this thread that IndieGirl used Plan B to attack the affair, keep myself safe from anger and being dragged down. That, I think is how I need to proceed. What is an AoW for Plan B?

How do I read more on this, or start a new thread, if a new member needs clarification in the middle of someone else's thread?

My sincere apologies, Rainysweet, for asking a question in the middle of your posts. I will be following and hoping only the best for your situation and peace to come for you and your children.......

rainysweet, I don't think i have ever seen someone who needed Plan B more than you. You have been through holy hell and will take a very long time to heal, IF you end this now. Go to Plan B and push the divorce through. You have nothing to lose that way. If he ever comes around and meets your conditions, you can always re-marry.

Plan B is not hard when you have teenagers at all. You tell your kids they are not to tell you anything about their dad and explain why you are in Plan B.

Before you go dark, find an intermediary who will agree to be neutral and who will act as a spam filter. It needs to be a non family member who has some balls. REad up on Plan B here.

Do you have Dr Harleys book, Surviving an Affair?

You need to stop reacting and start acting.

Why did you leave the house in the first place? You should have stayed with the kids and got legal advice about getting some kind of temporary support order in place.

Buying another house with the help of WH isn't prudent.

Take a breath. Try to keep things as same as possible. Same house. Same schools for the kids. Same friends. Same family.
More disruption for you and the kids isn't good for anyone.

He's angry. Good. Let him see you and the kids going on with your lives without him.

This is a total t/j but click on the Art of War thread on my sig below.

Remember anger is draining and exhausting. The waywards like to provoke it in you. Thats why it is important to totally cut them out, go dark, until they promise to behave. If they don't? Then let them go...

Dont get mad, let the waywards do that, get into a position of calm strength.