Maybe you are asking because you think this A she engaged in was a wake up call in a troubled marriage? It would be hard to argue this. I went to battle with the psyschologist the other night over this as well. I HAD LITTLE OR NO IDEA OF MY WIFE'S UNHAPPINESS WHEN THE A STARTED. Yes, conversation, an essential component to relationships, was lacking. But, my complaint was purely intimacy in the bed. AND I COMPLAINED MIGHTILY. Her ENs that I wasnt meeting were never really iterated to me and she opted to get them from elsewhere. Look, I knew she was a fancy pants who needed certain things I had no ability nor the interest to deliver them quite like the OM was willing and able to. A simple conversation 3 or 6 months explaining her unhappiness after their initial sexual encounter could have solved this in one way or another, byegones.

So, to me our marriage may have gone along just fine living for our children with a relatively weak sex life and we would have stayed together for the sake of those chidren if the A never happened.

In this post-A world we live in now, I see us being a stronger couple attentive to each other's needs intimate, conversational, emotional, and other important things we took for granted. We now understand how easy it can be to be derailed to destructive actions if we dont take care to listen and to be completely committed to openness and honesty.

So, I think you may want to know if the A was a good thing for my marriage? Did the ends justify her means because we are closer today than ever in 15 year today? No way. Id rather have sat in a marraiage counselor 6 years ago and hashed out the communication gap and discussed the other guy she's started sleeping with and her reasons for doing so. This also implies that she did what she did to eventually "fix" our marriage. BS. She did it for selfish and self indulgent reasons. Simply put. And she knows it.

mss

Mike,

I found an ancient post that seemed to fit you and might help, bumped it on the Recovery page, didn't know how to get it here!!

It's called Leaf in the wind

Mike, if I may, I don't believe anyone would ever imply an A was "good" for a M. However, what is "good" is that you found MB. You found a plan for restoring the romantic love to your M.

I think anyone on this board who has lived through an A would wholeheartedly agree that an A is a p*ss-poor way of addressing problems in a M. You are exactly right that your W indulged in an A for purely selfish reasons...as did I.

H and I did not do a good job of communicating our unmet needs and dissatisfaction in our pre-A M. I was lousy at articulating my needs ("I'm not haaaappppppyyyy waahh waahh wahhh"). It sounds like your W was as well. I suggested counseling once upon a time but it resulted in a DJ from H ("I'm not the one with the problem, YOU'RE the one with the problem"). I ended up going along to get along and sacrificed my needs for the M (renter).

I'd never set out intending to have an A, never looked outside my M to have my needs met, and even though I didn't know what MB was, I was good at not allowing others to meet my ENs...UNTIL the POSOM came back into my life via the technological scourge of the modern world, FB. I had not been pining away for him all those years. All it took was contact and the fact that this was someone who had an old, dust-covered LB$ that I allowed him to begin making deposits to.

I didn't have an A to fix my M. I had an A because I was - I became - a selfish, self-absorbed b*tch.

That said, it happened. I can't change the fact that it happened no matter how much I wish I could. The fact is, though, that somewhere in all the mess I made of my M, I found MB. Yes, I wish I'd found it years ago. Like you, simple conversation (and O&H) would have saved us so much pain and heartbreak, and perhaps would have saved my M.

I'm just rambling...it's the same stuff others have said much better than me. I just read your posts and I see so much of my H's pain and anger sometimes, I just wanted to offer my support as you and your W try to rebuild your M.

I agree JComp has to be made, but if the spouse is trying as is Mikes then forgiving sooner or later has to be decided. If not we just keep on running around in circles after our tails. At some point when the WS has met the conditions we have to Decide to forgive. Then over time we can trust. I didnt mean to imply just compensation isnt necessary...it very much should be the deciding factor to forgive. Just saying it doesnt work, we have to mentally place it in our hearts to truly forgive. Resentment stops this process dead in its tracks. Even when compensation IS being made. Like with Mike, shes compensating him. RESENTMENT stops his forgiveness. Once he decides to forgive he must also throw away the resentment. I struggle with RESENTMENT even tho for the most part my FWW is making compensation. I say I forgive her but really my resentment and my taker hasn't at times. It digresses the recovery.

I just read through your whole thread... whew. I'm really glad you've been able to get past all this-- FOR NOW. I
'm still trying to wrap my head around, as to WHY she still kept going back. Then you go on to say that she actually wore the gifts she recieved from him IN YOUR PRESENCE- WOW!I don't want to seem direspectful, but she was basically his PROSTITUTE for these many years. I know I'm going to take flak for me saying this, but isn't this what prostitutes do-- recieve payment for sexual services? I mean has she realized what she was to this guy? How awful. I REALLY feel sorry for you. And to think thatb this was going on for years... without any regard for your feelings-- right under your nose. **edit**

Still watching and rooting for you Mike. This crap takes time, and with all these heavy hitters I don't have much to add.

I do think that forgiveness and just compensation both are important, but forced forgivness is never a good idea. It can only come with grace, and time also.

You are willing to stay together, and give it time, but that is not forgivness, that is kindness.

Forgivness will come when it is ready, and not 1 second before, I hope you are blessed with it in the future, but untill then, keep on working the program.

God Bless you Mike

Mike,

I didn't ask you those questions for any of the reasons you mentioned although I noted that you did not answer them either.

My point was/is/will be that your goals for a good marriage should not be changed by her A for better or worse. A good marriage to you is just that a good marriage.

The only question is whether or not you think you can attain those goals with the woman you are married to? Do you think you would have attained them if she had not had an affair?

I was not arguing that the A was a "good thing". I am not arguing about who was at fault, she had the A.

What I want you to focus on is the future, your goals for a good and rewarding marriage. What are they? Can you attain them with the woman you are married to giving she had an affair. Could you have attained them if she did not have an affair?

My point, the past doesn't necessarily change your future at least with regard to your goals for a good marriage.

Think about that, and perhaps it will help you handle the triggers and perhaps it will help you handle recovery is that really is what you want.

Now go back and reread what I said, I think you will see it in a slightly different light.

God Bless,

JL

I see us being a stronger couple attentive to each other's needs intimate, conversational, emotional, and other important things we took for granted. We now understand how easy it can be to be derailed to destructive actions if we dont take care to listen and to be completely committed to openness and honesty.

Wow.

Nicely phrased, Mike.

So, you know your destination, you understand the route to it, I think, and hopefully the desirability of staying true to you plan (without the AO detours) is becoming more critically evident.

You have the formula to make this a success story. You also have the friends here to help. Let's get you to that place you described above.

Nice post. Way to make a splash.

All this is old news. You're not a help.

Nice post. Way to make a splash.



Kinda like some "used food" hitting the bowl water!

Yes.

All stuff for me to think about. Crazy questions.

Sorry if this is a T/J.

This is what wayward spouses do. It is the nature of the crime. Many have called it addiction. I don't like the word, but honestly I don't have a better one to describe it. Read several more threads. YOu will find that they are all pretty much the same.

MSS, keep hanging in there buddy. You are doing great.

I thought maybe it was time to mention, for everybodys sake, a little about the addiction principle, and why its used so much as an explaintion of affair behavior.

We all know that the brain is a giant chemical battery right? Well its more than that really, but chemicals and electrical snynapses firing in the right place at the right time definatly have something to do with how we function, and the systems are so complex and fragile, that we don't understand them as much as we would like to.

Like to, thats an important part of this puzzle, why do we like what we like, and what makes us do crazy things, dangerous things, and foolish things, but more important to the infidelity issue, why do we hurt the ones we swore an oath to God even to love and protect.

There is no gaurantee, but it is possible for people losing a portion of thier brain, to function well, and it is also common as we know, to see people with a fully functional brain to function badly, and self destructivly.

So philosophy is not an answer but rather one avenue to understanding how to live with others, and within that hopefully is developed some EQ over IQ, because it is in understanding the emotions that we gain the most ability to love and appreciate being loved. Those are the things we want to do, and want to recieve more than anything else in life, reguardless of our seperate and widely different definitions.

Its natural also, and the center of our brain houses the part of us that recognises the reward system built into us for pleasure, but that part does not think, or process thought, visualize outside itself, or connect to the outside world. It depends on the rest of the brain, and the mind, to make decisions that keep us safe, and it trusts the rest of the mind also.

Its the part that reacts to dopamine, and dopamine can be hieghtened by thought alone. It really is bad when drugs are introduced but you don't need to do drugs to have this part to be stimulated, all you have to do is have a thought. When the desire overwhelms the rational mind, the dopamine can be realised, even if it is a thought that is selfish, although the process does not have to be that way, selfless thoughts can make you feel good too.

It comes down to the mind, the wrong thoughts, and many times unrealistic and false thoughts and ideas, that make us desparate to escape, to hide, and live in fear.

When we run away from our problems for relief, and believe we cannot overcome the issues we are having with our spouses, and run to an escape such as an affair, it has the same characteristics as a drug addiction, with all the desparation and fear and blindness also.

Dr H ran drug clinics for years, and he wont even counsel a couple if thier are addiction issues that have not been dealt with, because he knows drug addiction is a furthur progressed part of the same animal. Instaed of the addict learning how to love the spouse, they love the drug, because it seems to love them also. After addiction issues have been dealt with, maybe then he can start to work with the damage allready done from the drug addictions.

We all know what happens to people who are heavy drug addicts, the drug owns them and unless they stop it will allways own them right up till they die. One of the most important lessons addicts learn is that they cannot control how the drug effects them, just thier consumption of them. The same goes for people who get in affairs, but it is twofold now, because you can't control how it is going to damage your betrayed partner either.

Anybody who has been in and affair can tell you that the cure is total abstinence, just like with heavy drug addicts.

Its a chemical reaction that to the affair partners seems so real, because chemicals are realised into the brain, that tell them they are ok, so it is an addiction in that sense, that they will throw everything away, sell everything, to get thier fix.

Mark made a Thread about the brain and how different parts of the mind work. It was about controlling memories. It has a lot of good stuff in it.

Hope this helps and stimulates people to read up on the mind. A favorite scripture of mine talking about thoughts is..

Psalm 16:5-7
King James Version (KJV)


5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.

6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.

7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.

The lines on our brain accually shift during stress, so I liken that to these lines.

But you can't miss the part that is in the last line. They take Gods counsel, and have control over thier emotions, as they also are the appreciators of life, and do not create it, because our actions do.

The Kingdom of heaven is whithin.

There is a science in this work here, and a knowledge of Gods wisdom that reveals the science that many of us wish we had paid more attention to in the past. That didn't get by me. God is not the author of confusion, and all things will be revealed in time.

God Bless

t/j - CP, I don't know if I've said this before, but your posts are so insightful, and I - along with a whole cadre of MB readers, I am sure - really get a lot out of your posts.

Thank you, sir.

end t/j

My brother was addicted to drugs. Well, one in particular, and not that any is worse or better than another, this particular one is a biggie. He's clean at the present time, but one thing he's struggled to grasp is that he must adhere to total abstinence. He has destroyed his last serious relationship - she took him back several times after he promised to get clean, he'd use again, she'd kick him out. Get this - one of the last tims she took him back, she told him he could use, on occasion, as long as he kept his use confined to a specific area of the home. Why the two of them thought this would work, I have no idea. It didn't, obviously, and drove them apart again. She had recently taken him back for what looks to be the last time, and even though he stayed clean, she had so much resentment over the past that she simply couldn't stand to be with him anymore.

Anyway, I couldn't understand the drive, the urge, my brother had to keep going back to this "stuff" that was so bad for him...until I had an affair. Just like drug use, I willingly chose to engage in behavior that flushed my life down the toilet. Understanding the mechanics of addiction, the chemicals in my brain, etc. explains it somewhat, but it does not - and can not - make me feel any less culpable for my actions. I made choices, every single time I engaged in wayward behavior. Ultimately, I am responsible for those choices. Just as my brother was responsible for his choices, to use, or not to use.

Mike, I'm rooting for you.

Can you attain them with the woman you are married to giving she had an affair. Could you have attained them if she did not have an affair Mike these are the true things we must ask and you wont get the real answer for a bit. Only time will help you know if its attainable. My FWW digs in gets to work then she just gets complacent after the crises she created has subsided. So the truth is she doesnt ever really change but temporarily. So now Im faced with boundary decisions that involve my "Family" (DD's, DS) She has repetitively proven to me at this point is unattainable. No long term work just work in crises.
I send her articles for thought, now she just skims them so she could answer a question if i had one. I am frustrated beyond words.
This is your first A so long term benchmarks will show the true tests in time.

This post brings up a point that every recovering, or even can we say, newly awakening to the responsible nessesity of maintaining relationships, should consider.

I think everyone who has a good marriage, or relationship, must at some point realized that it is something that has to be protected and maintained. Many get married thinking all the hard work is done, and now its easy street,"We are so much in love!" Well the good news is, you can plan and be realistic with life and still be in love at the same time. Is that not romantic enough for people? Then thier brain needs an enema. Love is dealing with problems together, and the world and life are full of them. Why was it again you got married?

Hils you said that the only time she works is when you are looking. I hope this is not true, but what does she say when you tell her this? If this IS true, then you need to tell her, because yeah, gee what passion, how can you restrain yourself from filling her needs?

But if by chance she is in a state of shock still, and not sure what to do, still in some kind of fog, you must tell her what is bugging you because thats your job,(pleasure, honor, responsibiity?). If you know this is dangerous behavior, and it hurts or scares you, tell her, because she needs to hear it, and you need to say it. Just maybe she needs to be led out of the foggy idea that you will be able to stay in a loveless marriage, and as we all know, love is an action verb. You can't go wrong with being honest about your feelings to the one who is connected to your soul.

It might just sober up her mindset. Now because I have not read your thread, I will back off on advice, because it could be all wrong in your sitch.

But the point I was trying to make, is that marriage is not for people who don't want conflict, expect thier partner to carry most the load of the relationship and all the responsibilitys that come with life. If someone is a freeloader, they will take you down and it is not a marraige. If they are a renter, they are allways looking for a better deal anyways, if they are willing to maintain the marraige based on THE MARRIAGES NEEDS,(Which will change over time, and will have highs and lows), and not look at the costs compared to other options, well they will be rewarded. Yes even when they are pulling more weight sometimes, and even if they get betrayed. The rewards are personal, because they are thiers to own.

I am not preaching marraige at any cost, but personal integrity at any cost. Do what you can and do what is fair and right. Yes there should be benchmarks, but they should also be agreed upon. Except in cases with dishonesty and openess issues, I can't think of anything either party should be holding back. Like the old adage,"If someone will lie to you they will steal from you" When you are sharing a life with someone, lieing/staeling is stealing your life too.

Hils your W might just need to get some guts, you make sure she understands you are not in this alone, and be real with how you feel too. If she thinks that its controlling well hey, we only got one chance dear, lets stop wasting our life, take her by the hand and insist you both work, because nothing worthwhile is ever appreciated when we don't work for it. This is HER marriage too.

Praying all the MB people the best in their marraiges, and like the Bumper sticker says, "Only those who have fought for freedom can truly appreciate its value"

Keep up the good fight folks.

Mike thinking of you guys and hoping things are getting better.

On Saturday nite, as per usual (and as per my preference), I prepared the food for the bbq, I set the table, cooked the food, made a salad, and we had a nice dinner. I also cleaned 50%+ of the post dinner mess. I do this and have done this for several reasons one being Im a better cook than my FWW, Im faster at doing all this stuff, and its something I enjoy doing. Always did. But, this Saturday, it was different.

I started getting annoyed during and after dinner. I kept it to myself so not to upset my FWW or children but I started getting some bad thoughts. I started to realize that Im a pretty good guy in a million ways including preparing 90% of my family's meal, food shoppping for that food, I do over 50% of the laundry and folding thereof, and didnt work a job that kept me in the office 16 hours a day (I was around), and several other things that flew around my head. I'M HAPPY TO DO THIS STUFF. Thats not what was bothering me.

I was thinking that how can my FWW treat me in the manner she did when all of my GOOD points so out weighed my BAD points?

She chose to spend a lot of time with a creep having multiple affairs and had little care for a wife and young child let alone my FWW's family. Who spent many evenings a week out for "meetings". I had to ask what kind of person finds this type of person attractive? No moral character. Then again, my FWW was lacking that too, so they fit nicely together.

Well, I popped mulitple anxiety pills since sat and finally she caught on to my annoyance. In effort to maintain O&H, I told her calmly my issue. Again, she has already apologized for this and everything else so there was no need for "sorries".

There was not AO.

Its not always easy for me to push her past actions under the rug. I read the letters she wrote me a couple of weeks ago and they do some explaining, but what gets me is the vagueness of her recollection of details. Im not sure if this makes me happy that she cant remember too much of the early day (or even the later days) or its worse.

Another thing I'll share. I dont want to get into details, but my doctor and I agreed to cut my AD in half in response to a side effect of the AD.

The side effect was affecting a quality of life issue so his first thought was to cut the pill in half.

Since it took several weeks for the AD to do anything which is normal, I find it hard to believe reducing the dosage on Sat brought on my bad mood Sat night.

But its food for thought.

Hey Mike,

I wondered about the same thing...

What in the world could my W have seen in my worthless ex-brother???

If you read my thread you know what a piece of trash he is...

It had nothing to do with me or you...

It had to do with the addictive substance i.e false flattery, compliments etc they provided for a price...

It helped me to remember it is much like a high society woman who has EVERYTHING she could ever want sneaking down to the dregs part of town to get the crack cocaine she has become addicted to from a dirty, worthless drug dealer and from allowing herself those first few hits of crack...

It wasn't because you weren't a good provider...

It was because she didn't know how to speak up about what she needed and how to protect the M and you didn't know how to ask her what her needs were and how to provide them the way she needed them.

It was NEVER her choosing him over you...

It was her wanting to stay with YOU and get the EN's he provided.

He himself wasn't worth anything to her.

It was the EN's she wanted...

not HIM.

Remember that, Mike.

God bless.

Jim

I prepared the food for the bbq, I set the table, cooked the food, made a salad, and we had a nice dinner.

Excellent! Saturday evening started out as a pleasant family-oriented event. This would have been rated "Good".

I started getting annoyed during and after dinner...I started getting some bad thoughts. I started to realize that Im a pretty good guy in a million ways....I was thinking that how can my FWW treat me in the manner she did when all of my GOOD points so out weighed my BAD points?...I told her calmly my issue. Again, she has already apologized for this and everything else so there was no need for "sorries".

The underlined words are KEY to your situation, MSS. Your ongoing willingness to return to the "poor betrayed husband" role is entirely your issue. (She didn't bring up POSOM Saturday night, right? Or wear one of the pieces of jewelry? Or hint that he prepared a better BBQ?)

We BSs all know we got shafted by our WSs. And you're not alone in believing that your good points were insufficiently credited by your WS as she ran out to alternatively source ENs from an AP. (Hell, what I thought was my primary "good point" - total conmmitment to providing for my family - was the proximate CAUSE of my wife's straying.)

In effort to maintain O&H, I told her calmly my issue...There was not AO.

Okay, here's where you set the stage to make this a GREAT event. I assume FWW listened and commiserated. Without AO appearing this is a HUGE breakthrough by itself. But it goes beyond that.

MSS, you now can put in your "Recovery Check List" that you understand that as PERFECT as you might have been, or ever will be as a husband, your sterling efforts toward excellence might NOT be the ones that your spouse was/will be most interested in. Concentrate your efforts, if you have choices, in areas that she values most.

BTW: How about next week you write: We prepared the food for the bbq, we set the table, cooked the food, made a salad, and we had a nice dinner. (Yeah, I know you're better at it, but what could be more rrewarding than being "inefficient" with our spouse?)