I suggest you get your hands on his cell phone (when he's sleeping or in the shower and you know you've got a few minutes) and forward them to your email or your cell phone.

NOTE: Delete the forwarding info from his text when you're done (not the original text, just the one showing that it got forwarded).

MaritalBliss: When he is sleeping tonight I will try to see if I can set this up on his phone.

gaillajn, I must have misunderstood you because I thought I read where he had an EA before. Well, he is definitely having one NOW. And whether he agrees it is or not is beside the point. What matters is that he is hurting you and won't stop. That has been the history of your marriage it seems.

If I were you, I would write an email to Dr Harley and ask his advice about this. But, I would INCLUDE his long history with porn and how he ignored your requests to stop for years and years. You can talk to the Harleys on their radio show or they can answer your email on the radio and email you back. That way, you could play Dr Harley's answer for your H. [click on the radio link above]

But this is much more than just inappropriate boundaries with women, it is a long history of independent, hurtful behavior that never takes your feelings into account.

If you are on the show - please let us know what time and day. Your WH sounds identical to mine and I would love to hear Dr. Harley's advice.

I am in Plan B and I am going to assume that is the advice she gets as well.

Tough~

I called in to Dr. Harley's show back in 2006 regarding the EA (which you did not hear wrong Melody, it is just that my husband has never acknowledged he had one) and porn issues.

I was told to do plan B.

I've considered doing it, but am on the fence for a three reasons:

1. With the last EA my husband shut down, became angry, refused to discuss it with me. So far, even though I know he is not following through he has been more communicative with me and hasn't shut me out. Also, a difference between the last EA and this one is he (well up until last week) was being very honest and had not been concealing any aspect of the friendship. I know what he is doing is still bad, and disrespectful, and selfish but I feel I have more room to work with him this time around I guess because he isn't getting angry, or refusing to discuss the issue with me.

2. I do know if I asked him to leave that he would not and would tell me to leave. I can't do this with my two children, especially my eight year old who is autistic. It would be far too disruptive to go and sleep on someones couch with them. I don't think I can force him to leave our home.

3. He won't break total contact with her unless he quits his job - and that is something we cannot afford to do. He was unemployed for a very long time and he jumped through a lot of hoops to get this job.

Do you want a marriage, or an ex-husband who is employed? Because I fear you are sliding quickly to option number two.

This will be his third inappropriate friendship with another woman in our relationship. I guess I feel even if he stops contact with her, there will likely be another down the road.

I want him to realize how what is he doing is dangerous, even if he does not intend to have an affair. I want him to care more about hurting me than feeling good from attention from other women.

Until those things happen, I don't see how we can ever have a good marriage - this woman being involved or not. He needs to use good judgement and always put our marriage first.

When I read him Dr. Harley's article "Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marriage"?" He burst out laughing and said that was beyond ridiculous. I cried when he did this and told him we're not on the same page and we don't have the same beliefs and ideas when it comes to marriage and that it upsets me. He said "I am sorry honey, I love you and I will stop going to lunch with this woman if it upsets you - but I cannot agree with you on this. Not being able to go to lunch with a coworker is ridiculous."

I feel like my angle tonight should be bring up the fact he DID go to lunch with her after he said he would stop. I know he will come up with some excuse like "Oh she asked me and I didn't know how to say no without being rude" or "That is the only time we've gone to lunch, I have really cut back" or something similar. Regardless I would point out that he said he would not go to lunch with her, and broke that promise to me. That I should matter more in this situation. I have no idea what my angle is after that though. I feel like he will either shut down and we'll do the whole silence in the house thing for days and he'll maybe tell me he'll not go to lunch with her for real this time, or he'll say he's sorry but he's not going to be controlled by my insecurity or be made to feel like he is a cheater when he is not and has never been.

Even my own mother said she'd have a hard time turning down lunch invites repeatedly with a coworker when I was discussing this with her. Infact I am starting to think this no friendship thing really is outdated and that is why my husband thinks I am being silly and insecure, because most people I've talked with in real life about this seem to think I am overreacting.

I think the fact that this is a topic that people are divided on makes this tough as well. We all know extramarital sex is bad, and there could be no excuse or wiggle room if he were having sex with another woman and I found out. But this is tough because many people, including my husband, do not consider this infidelity or even a slippery path. They see men and women as equals in the work place and conversations, lunches and friendships with coworkers as perfectly normal. I agree with some of that - but that there needs to be tight boundaries with any cross sex friendship for the sake of the marriage. I have read over and over and over and seen it on this forum where affairs began as innocent friendships and I agree with Dr. Harley that these types of friendships can put deposits into the "love bank" for these people and feeling develop unintentionally.

Sorry you are going through this. You are getting great advice. I agree STRONGLY with what Mel is telling you...

Also this:

gaillgan,

Your WH is gaslighting you. [I should know because this is what my WH has been doing to me for the last three years re his boundaries with women and I can spot a gaslighter from a mile away now.]

Your WH is WELL AWARE of his behavior being inappropriate and harmful to you and your M but the REAL problem is....he just doesn't care about your feelings and will do/say what it takes to get you to back down nd let him do what makes him feel good. It's as simple as that.

You are correct, there will be others in the future, because you have enabled his behavior for so long. Unfortunately, you will probably end up divorced because he knows you will tolerate his abusive behavior and will continue. See, he has no reason and no motivation to change.

The only possible way I can see that you would have any future with him is to go into Plan B. File for divorce so you will be legally protected and then drag the divorce out for 2 years if you can. Have him legally removed from the home. If he won't meet your conditions to affair proof your marriage and engage in REAL recovery, then you are better off divorced. His behavior is extremely abusive and unless you remove yourself, you will live a life of deep suffering. I was deeply saddened when I read your history. He has been abusive for a very long time.

I would strongly urge you to go into Plan B just like Dr Harley instructed you years ago. Had you taken that advice back then it is very unlikely you would be back here again with more abuse because he would have either made a radical change or you would be divorced. Both of which are preferable to your current situation.

I am sorry for you and your kids, but there comes a point when you have to stand up for your marriage and fight a little, gallajin. Just tolerating years of abuse is not helpful to you, your husband or your kids.

I thought you could get some mileage out of this since your H doesn't follow POJA...

Dr Harley wrote this response to a poster who asked him about her H not following POJA regarding going to AA meetings. The poster's F?WH also didn't follow Extraordinary Precautions either.



Here

Susie, I am so glad you found this thread, because this poster could really use your input. I thought of you when I read this.

Now this is just silly. A grown woman can't just say "I'm sorry - my husband and I have an agreement that we don't dine with members of the opposite sex." How hard is that?? And what's wrong about letting the world know that you (generic) have boundaries and a healthy sense of propriety? How is it that we've allowed ourselves to become cowed by a world where anything goes, where the concept of men and women being 'best buds' is encouraged?? I don't KNOW any men and women who are best friends who aren't married. And I don't live in under a rock.

But I DO know people who pretended to be 'best friends' who were actually having an affair.

Hm. Yes, ITA with Mel. You may definitely want to consider Plan B. He obviously doesn't get it. I see Susie is on the thread, you lucky girl. Listen to what she has to say.

ITA with Mel. I was in that kind of marriage for a VERY long time...death by a 1000 cuts I tell ya.

The only thing I slightly disagree on is saying that you have enabled his behavior....I tried everything with my X...he was the kind of Wayward who absolutely would not believe that I was not going to keep tolerating his behavior---I had to actually divorce him. 2 years down the road he is FINALLY starting to act as if he realizes it is over. (I'm remarried btw)

I basically now believe that he was just not marriage material. His own wants always won out over a good strong marriage.

Btw, my new husband would never go to lunch alone with any woman. There are still many many people who believe in keeping good boundaries between the sexes.

I spoke with my mother while driving home from work. She called to check up on me because I was so upset earlier when I last spoke with her. I told her that I am fed up, and that I will not put up with this behavior from him.

I figured out where they went last week when he texted her that he was waiting by her car. I found the bank charge for a Vietnamese restaurant for that same day and it is several miles from his work, which would mean driving to it. Since he takes public transportation this would be why they went in her car.

I told my mother this, and how he had promised to not go to lunch anymore. Also, during our conversation the same day as they're lunch date he told me he hadn't been out to lunch with her since our last talk - LIE. He also told me that his friendship with her was nothing like with the classmate from years ago. I asked why and he said "well, for one I am not driving anywhere with her. We just walk and grab lunch. There are people everywhere and it isn't private" -- he said this the SAME day he went in her vehicle for lunch. Not only a lie, but a rather twisted one considering he brought up the driving thing.

My mother asked how much the tab was, and I told her not much, around $12 and she said "well he didn't pay for her, if it was a date he would have paid" -- I reminded my mother I work in accounting and I keep our checkbook perfectly balanced and that my husband knows I would notice a charge for $30 to a vietnamese restaurant and would know he wasn't alone. In addition I've brought up to him that he was spending too much on lunches and suggested he brown bag it more often. He's not that stupid that he would start buying her lunches and think I wouldn't notice.

I found myself getting angry with my mother for having to explain all of this, and that she was taking his side. My mother and my husband both think I am insecure and read into things too much.

I am glad I came back in here and read the updated responses. My resolve was starting to wear down a bit after my conversation with my mother and I was second guessing myself a bit. But I feel confident that I am in the right here and do need to stick to my guns.

One question, because it has been years since I read any of Dr. Harley's books - how do I initiate plan B here? What if he refuses to leave? What conditions do I set for reconciling? I'm kind of at a loss here.

I'd wait and do this later when I have more time but I know the conversation is going to come up tonight. I am far too upset to pretend nothing is wrong. I have felt like vomiting all day, didn't sleep very well last night, have bags under my eyes from crying and have had diarrhea on and off all day.

Gailljin, I would be very unspecific today and I will put together some talking points for you tonight when I get home. This is going to take a very global approach to turn this around. Does he still look at porn?

I had one that wouldn't leave either. Not unti an affair of his went physical and I had an emergency hearing for residency....then he signed off on the agreement and temp support.

If you really want to go Plan B I think you will have to consult an attorney. Sometimes just filing for divorce and asking for residency is enough for women with children---a judge will agree to that.

I feel for ya. I was where you are for many years. I just couldn't believe he couldn't understand how a good marriage was suppose to work. He basically told me if I didnt like it I could lump it. For YEARS. He thought I wouldn't divorce him. I highly recommend no one live that way.

Sw, the reason I suggested enabling is because Harley told her years ago to go into Plan b and she didn't. You, on the other hand, were just winging it.

G, what I will help you prepare is a real plan of recovery to present to him. See, your marriage never did recover from the last affair, so you rightly have predicted this will happen again. It will until he makes a radical change in his behavior. He has very poor boundaries around women and is in the practice of completely ignoring your wishes. He will have to change that if this marriage is to survive. What he does is cruel and unsustainable. In our recovery process, we set boundaries for extraordinary precautions. They are not negotiable.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mel & mb!


{{{{{{gaill}}}}}}

This was me after this last dday. Between my gaslighting H and communications with family members who were NOT being supportive (more to come on this) I was having such terrible anxiety attacks that I thought I was having a heart attack.

You are in great hands with Mel. She & some of the other fine folks here helped me immensely. Listen to her closely and you will be OK.

He'll be home in about 15 minutes. I am on pins and needles.

I know this is wrong, but I've been sitting here thinking, and thinking one thing that struck me is how different she and I are. She is petite and asian, I am more voluptuous, tall and blonde. She is an extrovert, is the type of girl who would go skydiving, DJ's in her freetime and is more of a free spirit. I am more introverted, anxious and emotional. To be honest she fits with my husbands personality more than I do, and that makes me think maybe they would be better suited for one another but hurts me to think that.

This is going to sound petty and vain, and I know in the end it doesn't matter - but I have seen her pics and she isn't very attractive. I am hit on fairly often from men, and know I am a good looking woman. I think it hurts more to realize this isn't something purely physical my husband is after.

And it makes me angry to type that because over the years I have been hit on many times by men and I have always rejected any advances, never flirt, and go out of my way to protect my marriage.