For several weeks a coworker of my husband has been a major issue and recurring topic in my household.

A little back story (you can find a thread from 2006 if you search my posts) my husband had an EA years ago with a classmate while he was in college. So what is happening now has ripped open an old wound as well.

February of this year my husband began a new job. Starting in early June he began mentioning this female coworker of his, he mentioned they had gone out to lunch, that she was the only other intelligent person in his office.

Because of what happened in the past, where I felt things went to far with a friendship (although not a PA from what I know) I immediately stated that I am not comfortable with him going out to lunch with this female coworker. I said if it was a group thing, with several people in the office - fine. But not one on one.

My husband strongly disagrees with me than men and women can't be close friends. I thinks I am being ridiculous and that my opinion is antiquated and not doable in todays work place where men and women work side by side. He says she has a boyfriend, and that he is happy with me and that an inappropriate thought has never crossed his mind. When I refused to drop my stance on one on one meetings he did say he would stop seeing her for lunch "for me" because my feelings are more important to him.

Since then there have been numerous things that have come up that are making me uncomfortable. One thing is he has tried inviting her along to a couple of events we've been at. He did say he wants me to meet her, and he is inviting her to things where I will be. The thing that bothers me is he never discussed inviting her with me, he just sent off the invite. One of the invites was to my brothers wedding reception, one to come to lunch with him and I, and the other to come out to a comedy club with us this past weekend.

I feel the fact he is trying to introduce us is a good sign, but on the other hand an really annoyed he is sending off these invites without asking me if I am okay with it. Especially because the topic of her has been a little heated over the course of the past few weeks.

He told me that he considers her a very good friend. He is refusing to keep the friendship at a distance and more of an acquaintance type of relationship. She is discussing her boyfriend (how she misses him because they 45 minutes away from one another, and he has a lot of things going on that prevent them from always spending weekends together)and I am not sure if he is discussing our marriage with her or not.

Last week he brought her up in a conversation, and I asked him what he felt were appropriate boundaries he should have with her. I told him I am not saying I am okay with them being friends, but that I want to hear what he thinks on the subject and maybe it will put my mind at ease some.

He said they should never discuss sex. I agreed and asked if there was more than that. He did not have any other ideas on the subject. I pointed out that the two of them discussing their relationships was a boundary I feel shouldn't be crossed, as well as the meeting one on one as we'd discussed the week before. He reiterated that he did not agree with me on this but would stop doing these things.

Last night I decided to look at his cell phone. Late last week there was a text from him to her telling her he was waiting outside by her car for her. She texted him back she was on her way outside to meet him.

I am absolutely livid right now. Best case scenario he was meeting her for lunch. But the thing is they work downtown and there are restaurants, cafes, delis all around them within walking distance. Why he would meet her at her car and not inside the building I do not know. Either way, he lied to me when he said he would not go to lunch with her anymore. He also has not disclosed that they did go (I asked him to keep me informed if they do meet up, even if in a group setting) and told him that his being honest with me about this friendship will mean a lot as far as me being able to trust him goes.

He is having another emotional affair (EA). He thinks that being partially open about it, that you will hopefully accept it. He knows its not appropriate, because he is hiding information. You need to know that this will progress to a physical affair (PA) unless you stop him in his tracks.

Start reading all you can on this site.

Ask the moderators to move your thread to the Surviving an Affair Forum. Click on the 'notify' button and leave a message.

I'm a newbie here, some very experienced folks will be along shortly to help you.

I feel it is worth mentioning that this woman is 29 years old and twice divorced. And while she is dating someone, they have a weekend only type of relationship and I mentioned she has expressed to my husband she is not happy about the amount of time (or lack thereof) she is able to spend with this boyfriend. Also, they have only been dating a couple of months.

Another thing is that my husband began buying me flowers every week for three weeks in a row right around the time he began bringing this woman up and was being extremely loving and nice. I found out one of the times he brought home flowers she had been with him at a farmers market to go and get them. I also saw on her facebook page a picture of him holding the flowers sticking out his lower lip and her making a joke that he must be in the doghouse.

I'm sorry you've had to find your way back here, gaillajn. You were here before my time.

First of all: NONONONONONO! It is NOT APPROPRIATE for opposite-sex coworkers to lunch alone together! Or anything else alone together, for that matter! I am very acquainted with the danger of this. My FWH's A started with a one-on-one lunch with his AP. It went from lunches to drinks after work to a full-blown PA within weeks.

This needs to stop immediately. Your H should respect you enough to honor your wishes.

I would suggest you quietly start snooping. Just the fact that he is trying to insinuate her into events where you'll be is telling me that he is trying to make it appear that she is 'just a friend'. I mean, WHAT? YOUR BROTHER'S WEDDING RECEPTION?? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? You didn't mention: is his co-worker's boyfriend also invited, or just her? I'll bet it's a solo invite. And I don't care that BF is 45 minutes away - these aren't the covered wagon days. It would take him 45 minutes to drive in, no biggie.

I should also tell you (and you're probably not going to like hearing this) there was some significant playfulness, covert flirting and joking around between my FWH and his AP, even before the first lunch. They knew it wasn't 'just lunch'.

Ugh. I think I'm going to be sick for you, gaillajn. I would insist that there be NO ALONE TIME between them, and I would start snooping like a bloodhound.

Make copies of everything you find - can you forward those texts to your phone or email? Make copies of her FB wall and save a copy of her friend's list to a Word doc. This is absolutely an EA at minimum.

I feel they are definitely flirting. Her boyfriend was invited to the reception and comedy club. He invited her to come along with him and I to lunch (I've been coming to his office one a week for lunch with him since this began) which I think is awkward.

In one of the texts she sent back she referred to him as "hun" and they've been pulling a lot of office pranks on each other. He switched around her M and N key on her keyboard a couple of weeks ago.

HUN??

Did you hear your H invite the BF? Because I doubt the BF has a clue about these invites if you didn't. I wouldn't believe your H at this point.

Do you have any friends in that office? Can you show up there at random times, unannounced?

I guess I am not sure if he was invited or not. I'd have to go back and read the texts. I think in one of them she mentioned she and her BF could not come because they had plans, but I don't know if my husband specifically invited both or not.

I have been doing snooping with his texts. Unfortunately I know no one in his office and have never met or spoke to anyone he works with.

Really I don't see any way I will be able to gather a lot of information. My husband is not a dumb man, and if he wants to continue meeting with her he will find ways to do it without using his cell phone. They work in the same office all day long. I suppose if things ever crossed over into PA territory there would be more clues as they would have to find more ways to meet outside of the office.

But I can't just sit around and wait and feel these knots in my stomach. I just don't know what to do now. I have made my position and boundaries very clear I feel and he is choosing to cross them.

Do I leave him over this? I just don't know. It feels like he is on a slippery path and disrespecting me and our marriage, that I do know. But what the next step in all of this I have no idea.

Have you been checking your phone records online to see if he is deleting any texts?

I would make it a point to start dropping in at his work at odd hours, when you 'find yourself in the neighborhood' Introduce yourself to his co-workers, or have him do so.

Can you send him a little bouquet of flowers 'just because' - include a florist's card that says something like "Just thinking about you and all that we have and feeling so blessed today." Swing by his office the same or next day to make sure they're on his desk.

I hadn't been checking his phone records, but am doing so now. I see he has sent out 122 text messages this month so I can track now if any are being deleted from this point forward.

Also, looking through the cell phone log I don't see a phone call between the two of them since June 28th. Although they could be talking on office lines, and I do know they have instant messaging through their employer set up on the computers.

I have plans to go and have lunch with him this Thursday. I can't send the flowers because they share desks and his space isn't really his. He moves to several offices throughout the day and is split between three departments.

Things keep popping in my head as I sit here at my desk and think. Sorry to make so many posts.

Two weekends ago we were at a birthday party for a younger cousin of mine. There was drinking, and a pool and people started to act inappropriately (skinny dipping)

I found my husband had sent this co worker a text at 2:30am that night/morning telling her about these crazy escapades. I told him this was unacceptable and inappropriate and there was no need for him to text at at that time and about such an inappropriate topic.

His response was he was in such disbelief that people were acting so crazy he just had to tell someone.

He just sent a text within the last 15 minutes, and it's right around lunch time. He texts three people 90% of the time, her, me and his friend who he has never met up with for lunch and generally only texts on weekends or to make plans.

Pretty sure he just sent off a lunch invite, or responded to one. We'll see if it has been deleted when I get home tonight.

Not time to go public yet. You need more proof.

What do I say to him tonight? Do I bring up that I know for certain they met after he told me he would stop meeting her for lunch. I do have the proof of that from the text messages I found last night.

Also, when he is home from work and there are no text records from today but I have record on the cell providers site he sent them off do I bring that up?

I am so angry and upset right now I don't think I could hold it in. The last couple of times I have tried he knew something was up and it ended up coming out.

Edit: I really don't know the steps to take here. I know if he were having a PA I would need to expose, go to plan A or plan B, etc. But what about in this case? I don't want to sit and watch and wait for this to turn into a PA - I want to nip it in the bud NOW. I've already told him how I felt this was disrespectful, and he agreed to stop but is now lying by omission and continuing to do what he said he wouldn't do. So now what?

gallajin, I am sorry you are back with this new problem. I saw you lurking last night and went back and read your history. My Lord. You have a serious problem.

And the basic problem is that your husband is a freeloader who engages in selfish, independent behavior without ever taking your feelings into account. He has been this way throughout your marriage. This recent problem is just one of many manifestations of this basic problem.

Unless and until he changes this behavior, this will be your lot in life. Your future will be one of enduring his affairs and compulsion with pornography.

Since he is headed into his second affair, I would strongly suggest you read up on When to Call it Quits and consider going into Plan B. You have been dealing with his independent, abusive behavior for YEARS and it has to have taken a toll on your emotional and physical health.

For him to do this to you AGAIN after a previous affair means he just doesn't get it and never did. What he is doing to you is cruel.

Can you download the text messages? Print them out? Put the printouts in a safe place outside your home (friend or family)? If you have not yet done this, not yet time to disclose. Gives him a chance to delete the evidence and call you crazy.

What do you do tonight? Act as if you didn't know, and secretly hunt for more evidence to stockpile. Dr. Harley says Radical Honesty goes out the window once you have evidence of an affair. Time to protect yourself. After all, it doesn't seem like your H is being very honest with you, now is he?

Definitely should move this thread or start a new one on the Just Found Out or Surviving An Affair forums.

I don't know of any way to download the text messages. Online there is no option for this, just a call log. Our carrier is Sprint so maybe someone else will know? This is a business cell phone account though, so I'm not sure if that will matter.

Edit: After googling it appears Sprint does not keep records of the texts.

Melody: He would strongly disagree with you that he ever had an affair. I don't even think he believes EA's are something that exist. It is so hard to talk to him about this because he thinks this is just my insecurity and outdated views on marriage.

Regardless, he does know this bothers me and we have discussed this situation (just the one recently) four times now in depth and he agreed to stop so he is lying and being selfish now.

Not true.

Cell phone carriers are required by law to keep copies of all messages. However, these messages are generally only accessible by court action (e.g., via subpoena).

You may not get access to them simply by asking, but if it comes down to a legal matter, that's another issue.

I suggest you get your hands on his cell phone (when he's sleeping or in the shower and you know you've got a few minutes) and forward them to your email or your cell phone.

NOTE: Delete the forwarding info from his text when you're done (not the original text, just the one showing that it got forwarded).

MaritalBliss: When he is sleeping tonight I will try to see if I can set this up on his phone.

gaillajn, I must have misunderstood you because I thought I read where he had an EA before. Well, he is definitely having one NOW. And whether he agrees it is or not is beside the point. What matters is that he is hurting you and won't stop. That has been the history of your marriage it seems.

If I were you, I would write an email to Dr Harley and ask his advice about this. But, I would INCLUDE his long history with porn and how he ignored your requests to stop for years and years. You can talk to the Harleys on their radio show or they can answer your email on the radio and email you back. That way, you could play Dr Harley's answer for your H. [click on the radio link above]

But this is much more than just inappropriate boundaries with women, it is a long history of independent, hurtful behavior that never takes your feelings into account.

If you are on the show - please let us know what time and day. Your WH sounds identical to mine and I would love to hear Dr. Harley's advice.

I am in Plan B and I am going to assume that is the advice she gets as well.

Tough~

I called in to Dr. Harley's show back in 2006 regarding the EA (which you did not hear wrong Melody, it is just that my husband has never acknowledged he had one) and porn issues.

I was told to do plan B.

I've considered doing it, but am on the fence for a three reasons:

1. With the last EA my husband shut down, became angry, refused to discuss it with me. So far, even though I know he is not following through he has been more communicative with me and hasn't shut me out. Also, a difference between the last EA and this one is he (well up until last week) was being very honest and had not been concealing any aspect of the friendship. I know what he is doing is still bad, and disrespectful, and selfish but I feel I have more room to work with him this time around I guess because he isn't getting angry, or refusing to discuss the issue with me.

2. I do know if I asked him to leave that he would not and would tell me to leave. I can't do this with my two children, especially my eight year old who is autistic. It would be far too disruptive to go and sleep on someones couch with them. I don't think I can force him to leave our home.

3. He won't break total contact with her unless he quits his job - and that is something we cannot afford to do. He was unemployed for a very long time and he jumped through a lot of hoops to get this job.

Do you want a marriage, or an ex-husband who is employed? Because I fear you are sliding quickly to option number two.

This will be his third inappropriate friendship with another woman in our relationship. I guess I feel even if he stops contact with her, there will likely be another down the road.

I want him to realize how what is he doing is dangerous, even if he does not intend to have an affair. I want him to care more about hurting me than feeling good from attention from other women.

Until those things happen, I don't see how we can ever have a good marriage - this woman being involved or not. He needs to use good judgement and always put our marriage first.

When I read him Dr. Harley's article "Are "Friends" a Threat to Your Marriage"?" He burst out laughing and said that was beyond ridiculous. I cried when he did this and told him we're not on the same page and we don't have the same beliefs and ideas when it comes to marriage and that it upsets me. He said "I am sorry honey, I love you and I will stop going to lunch with this woman if it upsets you - but I cannot agree with you on this. Not being able to go to lunch with a coworker is ridiculous."

I feel like my angle tonight should be bring up the fact he DID go to lunch with her after he said he would stop. I know he will come up with some excuse like "Oh she asked me and I didn't know how to say no without being rude" or "That is the only time we've gone to lunch, I have really cut back" or something similar. Regardless I would point out that he said he would not go to lunch with her, and broke that promise to me. That I should matter more in this situation. I have no idea what my angle is after that though. I feel like he will either shut down and we'll do the whole silence in the house thing for days and he'll maybe tell me he'll not go to lunch with her for real this time, or he'll say he's sorry but he's not going to be controlled by my insecurity or be made to feel like he is a cheater when he is not and has never been.

Even my own mother said she'd have a hard time turning down lunch invites repeatedly with a coworker when I was discussing this with her. Infact I am starting to think this no friendship thing really is outdated and that is why my husband thinks I am being silly and insecure, because most people I've talked with in real life about this seem to think I am overreacting.

I think the fact that this is a topic that people are divided on makes this tough as well. We all know extramarital sex is bad, and there could be no excuse or wiggle room if he were having sex with another woman and I found out. But this is tough because many people, including my husband, do not consider this infidelity or even a slippery path. They see men and women as equals in the work place and conversations, lunches and friendships with coworkers as perfectly normal. I agree with some of that - but that there needs to be tight boundaries with any cross sex friendship for the sake of the marriage. I have read over and over and over and seen it on this forum where affairs began as innocent friendships and I agree with Dr. Harley that these types of friendships can put deposits into the "love bank" for these people and feeling develop unintentionally.

Sorry you are going through this. You are getting great advice. I agree STRONGLY with what Mel is telling you...

Also this:

gaillgan,

Your WH is gaslighting you. [I should know because this is what my WH has been doing to me for the last three years re his boundaries with women and I can spot a gaslighter from a mile away now.]

Your WH is WELL AWARE of his behavior being inappropriate and harmful to you and your M but the REAL problem is....he just doesn't care about your feelings and will do/say what it takes to get you to back down nd let him do what makes him feel good. It's as simple as that.

You are correct, there will be others in the future, because you have enabled his behavior for so long. Unfortunately, you will probably end up divorced because he knows you will tolerate his abusive behavior and will continue. See, he has no reason and no motivation to change.

The only possible way I can see that you would have any future with him is to go into Plan B. File for divorce so you will be legally protected and then drag the divorce out for 2 years if you can. Have him legally removed from the home. If he won't meet your conditions to affair proof your marriage and engage in REAL recovery, then you are better off divorced. His behavior is extremely abusive and unless you remove yourself, you will live a life of deep suffering. I was deeply saddened when I read your history. He has been abusive for a very long time.

I would strongly urge you to go into Plan B just like Dr Harley instructed you years ago. Had you taken that advice back then it is very unlikely you would be back here again with more abuse because he would have either made a radical change or you would be divorced. Both of which are preferable to your current situation.

I am sorry for you and your kids, but there comes a point when you have to stand up for your marriage and fight a little, gallajin. Just tolerating years of abuse is not helpful to you, your husband or your kids.

I thought you could get some mileage out of this since your H doesn't follow POJA...

Dr Harley wrote this response to a poster who asked him about her H not following POJA regarding going to AA meetings. The poster's F?WH also didn't follow Extraordinary Precautions either.



Here

Susie, I am so glad you found this thread, because this poster could really use your input. I thought of you when I read this.

Now this is just silly. A grown woman can't just say "I'm sorry - my husband and I have an agreement that we don't dine with members of the opposite sex." How hard is that?? And what's wrong about letting the world know that you (generic) have boundaries and a healthy sense of propriety? How is it that we've allowed ourselves to become cowed by a world where anything goes, where the concept of men and women being 'best buds' is encouraged?? I don't KNOW any men and women who are best friends who aren't married. And I don't live in under a rock.

But I DO know people who pretended to be 'best friends' who were actually having an affair.

Hm. Yes, ITA with Mel. You may definitely want to consider Plan B. He obviously doesn't get it. I see Susie is on the thread, you lucky girl. Listen to what she has to say.

ITA with Mel. I was in that kind of marriage for a VERY long time...death by a 1000 cuts I tell ya.

The only thing I slightly disagree on is saying that you have enabled his behavior....I tried everything with my X...he was the kind of Wayward who absolutely would not believe that I was not going to keep tolerating his behavior---I had to actually divorce him. 2 years down the road he is FINALLY starting to act as if he realizes it is over. (I'm remarried btw)

I basically now believe that he was just not marriage material. His own wants always won out over a good strong marriage.

Btw, my new husband would never go to lunch alone with any woman. There are still many many people who believe in keeping good boundaries between the sexes.

I spoke with my mother while driving home from work. She called to check up on me because I was so upset earlier when I last spoke with her. I told her that I am fed up, and that I will not put up with this behavior from him.

I figured out where they went last week when he texted her that he was waiting by her car. I found the bank charge for a Vietnamese restaurant for that same day and it is several miles from his work, which would mean driving to it. Since he takes public transportation this would be why they went in her car.

I told my mother this, and how he had promised to not go to lunch anymore. Also, during our conversation the same day as they're lunch date he told me he hadn't been out to lunch with her since our last talk - LIE. He also told me that his friendship with her was nothing like with the classmate from years ago. I asked why and he said "well, for one I am not driving anywhere with her. We just walk and grab lunch. There are people everywhere and it isn't private" -- he said this the SAME day he went in her vehicle for lunch. Not only a lie, but a rather twisted one considering he brought up the driving thing.

My mother asked how much the tab was, and I told her not much, around $12 and she said "well he didn't pay for her, if it was a date he would have paid" -- I reminded my mother I work in accounting and I keep our checkbook perfectly balanced and that my husband knows I would notice a charge for $30 to a vietnamese restaurant and would know he wasn't alone. In addition I've brought up to him that he was spending too much on lunches and suggested he brown bag it more often. He's not that stupid that he would start buying her lunches and think I wouldn't notice.

I found myself getting angry with my mother for having to explain all of this, and that she was taking his side. My mother and my husband both think I am insecure and read into things too much.

I am glad I came back in here and read the updated responses. My resolve was starting to wear down a bit after my conversation with my mother and I was second guessing myself a bit. But I feel confident that I am in the right here and do need to stick to my guns.

One question, because it has been years since I read any of Dr. Harley's books - how do I initiate plan B here? What if he refuses to leave? What conditions do I set for reconciling? I'm kind of at a loss here.

I'd wait and do this later when I have more time but I know the conversation is going to come up tonight. I am far too upset to pretend nothing is wrong. I have felt like vomiting all day, didn't sleep very well last night, have bags under my eyes from crying and have had diarrhea on and off all day.

Gailljin, I would be very unspecific today and I will put together some talking points for you tonight when I get home. This is going to take a very global approach to turn this around. Does he still look at porn?

I had one that wouldn't leave either. Not unti an affair of his went physical and I had an emergency hearing for residency....then he signed off on the agreement and temp support.

If you really want to go Plan B I think you will have to consult an attorney. Sometimes just filing for divorce and asking for residency is enough for women with children---a judge will agree to that.

I feel for ya. I was where you are for many years. I just couldn't believe he couldn't understand how a good marriage was suppose to work. He basically told me if I didnt like it I could lump it. For YEARS. He thought I wouldn't divorce him. I highly recommend no one live that way.

Sw, the reason I suggested enabling is because Harley told her years ago to go into Plan b and she didn't. You, on the other hand, were just winging it.

G, what I will help you prepare is a real plan of recovery to present to him. See, your marriage never did recover from the last affair, so you rightly have predicted this will happen again. It will until he makes a radical change in his behavior. He has very poor boundaries around women and is in the practice of completely ignoring your wishes. He will have to change that if this marriage is to survive. What he does is cruel and unsustainable. In our recovery process, we set boundaries for extraordinary precautions. They are not negotiable.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Mel & mb!


{{{{{{gaill}}}}}}

This was me after this last dday. Between my gaslighting H and communications with family members who were NOT being supportive (more to come on this) I was having such terrible anxiety attacks that I thought I was having a heart attack.

You are in great hands with Mel. She & some of the other fine folks here helped me immensely. Listen to her closely and you will be OK.

He'll be home in about 15 minutes. I am on pins and needles.

I know this is wrong, but I've been sitting here thinking, and thinking one thing that struck me is how different she and I are. She is petite and asian, I am more voluptuous, tall and blonde. She is an extrovert, is the type of girl who would go skydiving, DJ's in her freetime and is more of a free spirit. I am more introverted, anxious and emotional. To be honest she fits with my husbands personality more than I do, and that makes me think maybe they would be better suited for one another but hurts me to think that.

This is going to sound petty and vain, and I know in the end it doesn't matter - but I have seen her pics and she isn't very attractive. I am hit on fairly often from men, and know I am a good looking woman. I think it hurts more to realize this isn't something purely physical my husband is after.

And it makes me angry to type that because over the years I have been hit on many times by men and I have always rejected any advances, never flirt, and go out of my way to protect my marriage.

Gail, you are the obvious best fit for your husband because you are married and are the mother of his children. You very much can learn to have a happy romantic marriage if you use this program.

Also, his future with her is doomed because it began as an affair. 95% of affairs crumble within 2 years. There is no future with her.

OK, now for your mother (and for anyone else who tries to make you second guess yourself for Plan B, etc), you will have to tell her that your H is abusing you and it is affecting your health and that you WILL NOT discuss this decision with her any further.

If she doesn't get the hint, unfortunately, you will need to Plan B her as well.

I have had to Plan B my H's family because they criticized/debated my decisions regarding my H's A and it was setting me back. It has helped incredibly and I wouldn't hestitate to Plan B anyone else who tries to make me feel bad for not putting up with WH's abuse (or any decisions I make related to it like exposure...)

Hang in there!

I feel like a child. He is home and I am locked away in the bathroom. He just knocked on the door and asked what I was doing and I said I have a stomach ache.

I don't want to come out. I don't think I can keep it together. One thing he and my mother are right about is I am a very emotional person and wear my heart on my sleeve. I can cry at the drop of a hat and have never been able to conceal my emotions.

I could kick myself for not going somewhere after work.

Develop a sudden case of allergies. It's been my stock excuse for many years when I'm weepy, and I, too, cry pretty easily over some stuff.

Well it came out. He told me about his day, we talked about how hot it is outside, I told him about my day at work. I was barely focusing on the conversation and couldn't look at him.

Finally, I told him that I knew they had gone to lunch last week and that he'd been in her vehicle. He didn't hesitate and said yes, and said they met up with two other coworkers and had Pho at a Vietnamese restaurant. - When we originally discussed this coworker and the lunches I did tell him I wouldn't mind him going in a group setting, but the one on one lunches were off limits -

I told him it did not matter that they met with other people. He went into her car, just the two of them and he also failed to tell me they went out when that same day of the lunch we had an hour long discussion about her.

He tried being a martyr, he said I don't trust him and what has he ever done to not deserve trust. I told him this is not a trust issue, that this is a boundary I think should exist for EVERY marriage, regardless of history.

He tried with the insecurity approach, and I said that this was not an insecurity. This is a belief of mine and has been for a long time, it is one I adhere to myself. I mentioned to him that I have been invited to lunches with male coworkers, I am often invited to business lunches with our insurance reps and our accountant and I always decline the one on one meetings and choose to do the meetings in the office. I reiterated that this is something I feel is crucial for a marriage and told him once again most affairs do begin innocently as friendships. Most are not someone waking up one day and decided to go out and cheat on their spouse. I told him even if this coworker of his falls of the face of the earth tomorrow this would still be an issue for us because it is one that has been repeated.

He deleted her off of facebook right in front of me, and blocked her on his cell phone. He told me he will never go to lunch with her, or any woman, ever again. He said he will eat lunch at his desk from now on and brown bag it, and if he does get lunch it will be from a deli stand and he'll bring it back to his desk.

He thought I would be satisfied with this, but I wasn't. He asked why I still looked upset. I told him that we've already had this conversation, more than once, and it feels like someone is playing a broken record. I told him I appreciate what he is saying but that I've heard it before and actions are bigger than words. I told him that it would take a while for me to believe him, and that so far I feel like he's looked for loopholes to continue to meet her and has disrespected me by trying to play it off like it was no big deal.

He told me he will not delete any texts, that I can look at his phone, email, facebook every night. I told him that he and this coworker are together at work all day long and that they don't need cell phones, or facebook to keep things going. He asked if he needed to quit his job and I replied maybe to that. He looked rather shocked I would suggest this - we both know money is tight, and I am fanatical about budgets and planning - so I am sure the last thing he expected was for me to even consider it.

He said he will have absolutely nothing to do with her in the office as well as lunches and things outside the office. He said that he doesn't mind giving up the friendship if it makes me feel better. He told me I could come by his office anytime if that would make me feel better about what is going on, and that he loves when I come and meet him for lunch and I am welcome to come by anyday.

So there was no plan B. The closest I came was when he tried to say this was my insecurity. I stopped him and said I won't hear that. That he knew these were my boundaries before we married, and it has come up now twice since we married. I told him I am not going to change the way I feel on this as I feel too strongly to give in. I said he can be a single man, have all the female friendships he desires or he can stay married to me and respect me but that there will no longer be anything but these two options. I did tell him if there is a next time with a lunch, or a new coworker, that he will be choosing that over me and that I won't be able to live with that.

So basically I threatened a plan B. I thought for sure that last night I was going to ask him to leave. I never expected him to sit there and be so responsive. Maybe he knows it is wrong? Maybe he is just placating me?

If I do find another interaction between the two of them there will be nothing but plan B available. We've closed all the loopholes now, he's not only promised no lunches, but to just stay away from her. There is nothing left for him to give as an excuse from here on out.

You did great!!! I am so proud of you. And I believed every word you said.

NOW, please get a key logger on his cell phone so you can read his texts, ok?

Excellent! A bloodless coup!

You did great! (But keep snooping.)

Thanks you guys! I was thinking about your advice and what you might suggest I say when we were having our talk last night. I think it is what helped me to stick to my guns, and be very firm without getting angry.

I definitely plan to keep looking, and he knows it so if he were going to hide things he will have to be more creative. I do plan on stopping at his office tomorrow for lunch as well.

I am convinced he will tell her today why he deleted her off of facebook, and that his wife is cuckoo for cocoa puffs and insecure about their lunches and being friends. I don't care. I told him to go right ahead and tell her that we have agreed no blooming friendships with members of the opposite sex, and no going and doing things that resemble a date.

I am sure this woman is going to tell him that I am being ridiculous. Afterall she is the 29-year-old, twice divorced DJ who is so fun loving and extroverted and goes to lunch with married men in her office.

My hope is that she was really not romantically interested in my husband and once she knows this is creating an issue with his marriage will back off.

If things to continue between the two of them, I have no doubt I will figure it out eventually even if he is sneaky about it. Not to pat myself on the back, but I have been very good at figuring things out in the past when he tried to lie and hide them. I hate playing detective, but feel I have little choice now because he has shown me he will hide things and not be honest with me when it means he might get in trouble i.e. disrespecting me.

I a voice activated tape recorder I am going to put into his vehicle, although he doesn't drive most of the time. But he does about once a week so I might find something there.

With him blocking her from his phone she can't text him, and vice versa. But I will check to see if he changes the settings, and I will also monitor the phone bill for calls to her.

Any other ideas? I do plan to stop in once a week at least for lunch with him - I think it will be good for our marriage as well as make my presence known in his office. But I don't think I'll find anything out that way.

As long as they work together you will die by a 1000 cuts. Do you see what you are doing in this quote? You are degrading yourself because you gave him a boundary. You are disrespecting yourself and your marriage by assuming (may be fact) he is throwing your under the bus to her.

Is that what you want in a husband? Someone you assume will throw you under the bus for a skank?
Is this what you want in a marriage?

My suggestion is NC for life with him giving you EP's tonight or you will destroy yourself waiting for the next skank to come along.

I thought the same thing. Once I confront OW and tell her my four children and I love my WH and she just needs to go away she would.

Well not quite -- she dug her claws in deeper. Now my WH is divorcing me, throwing away his family, his homes, ruined his military career, and is now likely to move in with her once the divorce is final.

You can dream all you want that this skank cares about you. I will tell she cares nothing about you, your husband, or anything associated with you. She only cares about herself and her needs.

How to make her go away - EXPOSE this nasty skank to all ... EXPOSE to their work immediately and all her and his Facebook friends, EXPOSE and you may be able to save this marriage. Otherwise dig your grave, you are bleeding to death at the moment.

Tough~

My thought is to expose to her boyfriend first and your husband's family and friends.

Let her boyfriend know she is stepping over a marital boundary with your husband and you thought he should know.

I would hold off on exposure for now. If you expose to her BF, all you can really say is that they've had lunches together and the occasional text. Now, while people on this site know how dangerous that is, the world at large will say "So what? What's the harm in that?" They don't get it.

I'd suggest you snoop to see what you find. Can you get his phone long enough to download a GPS tracker? Check out the Operation Investigate forum for more info on that. We recently got a post from a poster who has given info regarding a free app for this purpose. I checked out the website and it looks legitimate, but I haven't tried it myself so I can't vouch for it.

Be ready to expose - just not quite yet.

Maritalbliss, I am on the same page as you. I think that is exactly how it would be perceived if I were to expose them and I think it could possibly even make things worse for me. If my husband has coworkers and people he knows agreeing with him and saying I am being ridiculous it will cement his beliefs and he may even throw the entire no contact agreement with her out and give me an ultimatum that I stop being "ridiculous" or he is done with the marriage.

Right now I am happy with the agreement he has made with me - IF he sticks to it. If he chooses to not follow through, then I will move to plan B with him immediately.

For the time being, I am going to watch and wait and try to make our marriage better (sort of a plan A) so he can see what he has at home and what he'd be missing should a plan B have to be implemented.

I will check out the GPS tracker and the investigation forum. Hopefully there will be some good advice there and things I haven't thought of so I can feel comfortable he is following through - or if not, I can take the next steps I need to.

One good thing is my husband sent me a text message an hour ago saying he is getting off work early today (they had some training to do) and asked if I would mind picking him up so he can ride home with me. He would have easily had the opportunity to stick around and hang out with her for an hour without my ever finding out.

And he may also be just placating you to get you back into a less wary position where he can continue to cake eat.

Gosh my husband was so loving and attentive when I put my foot down about his inappropriate friendship!

My mistake was I didnt snoop so i didnt find out that all i had done was drive it underground.

Snoop snoop snoop

Unfortunately, I do not think you should be happy with this current situation. From your description, intimate ENs (conversation, recreation, admiration...) were being met and he was keeping parts of this relationship secret because he knew it was wrong. Once that bell is rung, you can't go back. She will remain a threat to your M and most likely your H will stay foggy.

I am not at all surprised that your H agreed to all of your conditions. My H has agreed to everything I have ever asked of him while never really truly believing he needed to protect me or give up his SSL & independent behavior. Your WH is most likely just doing what he can to keep you from walking while he figures out his next step.

I think you are doing everything right for now, but (so sorry to say) I want you to brace yourself for him to continue the relationship. I hope I am wrong.

Okay, this is good. Assume he's honestly making an effort. (And keep snooping.) In the meantime, understand that there were certain needs of your H's that OW was meeting. Meet those needs. They may be needs for admiration or conversation. Check out the Most Important Emotional Needs here.

Also, understand that you and your H need to devote at least 15-20 hours a week to UA time(undivided attention). That's the most sure-fire way to ensure that you are meeting his needs, and he is meeting yours. Check out the Policy of UA time here.

Indiegirl: I just read your thread. First off I am so sorry that for what you are going through. Also, your husband sounds so much like mine. The over eager boyscout part especially. I do plan to continue to snoop.

Susie: I agree it there is a strong possibility that this won't end here. I am prepared to execute plan B should I uncover this EA is continuing.

Maritalbliss: We have had some issues in our marriage more recently. Last year and early this year I had gone into withdrawal and was no longer interested in sex, or being around him at all really. He had been depressed for so long it had drained my love bank and he had refused to get help. When he began his new job, he also started taking prozac. The combination of the two really brought him back and he has been happier since. I have began to turn around (before this EA began) my attitude towards him and sex with him. For a while he actually thought maybe I was up to something because I had checked out of our marriage - something I'd never done before.

Even though things had been getting better, they were not stellar. We were rarely going on dates, our marriage is very child centered, and honestly both he and I feel bored a lot of the time because we have no social life. He actually brought weeks ago part of his motive of befriending this girl was because she has a BF and he thought maybe we could all be friends since I have mentioned many times it would be nice to have couples to hang out with and go on double dates with. However, I told him I would prefer he make friends with a married man instead of a younger unmarried female.

The past couple of weeks we have gone on some dates, those were the times he tried inviting her along. I was planning the dates to try to get time alone for the two of us because I realize things aren't going too well in our marriage.

I do plan to continue the lunches with him once or twice a week. It's one hour where just he and I can go and walk around, talk and have lunch together. I told him we'd try a new restaurant every week and it would be a little adventure.

I am working on getting us more babysitting time with my mother, but she and my father have been having their own problems and she still has my teenage sister in the house who is a handful. So she's not always willing to take on my two boys, one who is autistic and can be challenging, and the other who is a rambunctious three-year-old. My husband doesn't have a great relationship with his parents, and they live out of state.

I think I could work on his SF EN, I've been doing better than I was before when I just didn't want to at all. But I think he would like if I tried to initiate it, which I never do.

Admiration would be a big one too I think.

I've sort of checked out on things he is interested in and often find myself bored when he talks about them. I think I need to be a little more enthusiastic about his interests and companionship is probably something we're lacking that could be worked on.

Gail, I agree with Susie 100%. This is not over. This behavior is very entrenched in your H and he is not going to flip over night. I predict this will go further underground, so please do not let your guard down one bit.

I am not impressed that he called you to pick him up. That is how I would expect someone who is trying to get out of the dog house to act. Don't be fooled by that. And be sure and continually search his car for another phone.

I am very impressed with how you handled yourself in the discussion last night. It takes that kind of approach.

Welp, things fell apart tonight.

My mother offered to watch our boys so we could go out to dinner. Things were going well when all of a sudden he asked me when would be a good time to give me the "OWreport" -- I said, well I guess right now. He told me she asked him to go to a coffee shop with him this morning to grab a muffin and he told her he'd already ate. She then said well maybe we can grab lunch later and he avoided her the rest of the day.

I told him this tactic isn't going to work. That she's going to notice something is up and he's going to have to explain. He acted like I would be embarrassed if he told her the truth - to which I said not at all, go right ahead. I said I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with what I am asking and am not the least bit embarrassed. He said basically he's letting her know that I think she's a slut - to which I said, no, she is irrelevant here. What is important is that we have clear boundaries in our marriage.

He said fine, he'd tell her. I said I understand things may be awkward for him now, but that I hope he understands that things should have never got to this point and had he used good judgement wouldn't be in this pickle.

He said it's fine, that he'll get over it. Just to give him a day or two.

He then began to be passive agressive and I called him out on it. Then the conversation went back to my insecurity, how ridiculous it is he can't have a platonic friendship. I began explaining how EA's begin usually to him once again to which he said that only applies to people who are not in love with their spouse or who are dbags - which aren't applicable to him. He said I should trust him.

I told him it's not just dbags who get involved in affairs, and often it happens to people who did not intend for it to happen. I used myself as an example and said "Ok, imagine there is a guy at my work. He's fairly attractive, fun, and our personalities click. We go out to lunches, share funny stories, I really enjoy hanging out with this guy but it's only platonic. For months this goes on to where we've developed a good friendship and I can talk to him easily. One day you and I get into a large arguement. I go to work and tell this friend all about it and he agrees that I am in the right and that you aren't being fair. I begin to think that he understands me better and before I know it I am comparing the two of you. I notice when I'm with him it's light and fun, and at home we argue. Before I know it I am finding myself wanting to be around him for this reason more and more and begin imagining what it'd be like to be with him instead."

He said he could not believe I had said that. He now believes that this has happened with me, and that is why I am so "paranoid" because I've done it myself and am projecting it onto him. I repeatedly told him I have never even been close to such a situation, and that I do not go to lunch or have intimate conversations with men.

Anyway, we drove around the block several times and then talked more in the driveway. My mother was inside waiting for us so we went in. I ended up taking our three year old to urgent care because he is running a fever (ear infection) my husband has secluded himself down to the basement and I think we're no longer on speaking terms.

He is headed right into his next affair, Gail. The ones who have affairs are the ones who think "it can't happen to me." As you told him, it has very little to do with being in love with your spouse, it has everything to do with appropriate boundaries. Affairs happen every day in marriages where the couple is in love because one has poor boundaries.

It is clear that your H puts this co-worker before you and your marriage.

The reason this keeps happening, Gail, is because he has never adopted extraordinary precautions in your marriage. That should have happened after his last affair. This is why extraordinary precautions are NOT negotiable.

You understand what you are facing, right?

This is very manipulative of him. He is gaslighting you.

He is trying to get you to back down.

Does it seem rational to you that he is sulking in the basement over a discussion about a "friendship"? Does he normally stay in the basement while you rush your child to the doctor? He seems a little too angry and defensive

My FWH used the same tactics and arguments that your H is using.

It was a PA.

I hope I am wrong here ...

Snoop. Find out what you are dealing with.

Stay strong. Be smart.

Oh...if I could go back in a time machine and be where you are today.

2 years ago, I discovered texts between my WSTBXH and a single, younger co-worker who my WSTBXH had taken under his wing. He told me then that she was interested in him but that it didn't go any farther than that. He said nothing physical had happened and that he'd put an end to it. I called her and spoke to her to explain my point of view. I was soooo stupid - I believed him that he ended it, started to plan A my H (before I knew what Plan A was and before I found MB).

Fast forward 6-8 months (maybe less), my WSTBXH went full PA with her. Sex in hotels, planning future together, sneaking around, lying to me every day, hiding money...I didn't know about it for a year. I plan A'd him, then Plan B'd him but by then it was too late...the behavior was so ingrained, his head so far up his rear I couldn't extricate it. It has been the most painful thing in my life but I told him to leave and we are now D. The man I married is gone.

What I realize about my WSTBXH is that he has low self-esteem. And he needs women around him to prop him up. He has always had close relationships with women...particularly younger women whom he mentors. They prop him up. Feed his ego. The more successful he has become, the more insecure he's gotten.

I never saw this as a problem - I was always very secure. Felt I was a pretty good wife (took care of everything, dated him, stroked his ego at home) but he always had this thing inside of him with poor boundaries. He needed more.

I also discovered through snooping that at the same time of PA, he was clearly addicted to porn. Every day he looked at it.

While I can't go back in time...if I could, when I first found those messages, I would have packed up my DD3, left, and went into a VERY DARK Plan B and filed for legal separation. I wish I had exposed then. That was my gut instinct at the time. I know know that the only thing that would have worked is a hammer to my H's head - talking to him, explaining to him didn't work.

Maybe that's not the right thing for you to do but if you let an affair go on, let it become fun and secretive and exciting, they will fall in love with each other and risk everything for the high. If it's not this one, it will be another. Until he changes his boundaries, until he thinks he will lose you...but before he falls in love with her...now is the time for action. Call Dr Harley, read everything you can on affairs, read this board.

One other subject...
The OW hates you...let's be clear. Your H is probably complaining about you to her and she feels like she's a better match for him than you. I thought I could appeal to my H's OW on more than one occasion but she is a LOSER, with no self esteem either. This is why they become attracted to each other. My H's OW became a great mistress - she had to have a PA with a married man for a year. Their mutual hatred for me (and I believe now my WSTBXH had so much rage and anger for me) fueled their affair - which he admitted in a rare moment of clarity.

Be very, very careful here. I hope you never have to go through what I have and I so hope your H is not like mine.

Good luck and take care of yourself above all.

Nothing speaks louder than experience. Gail, would your H be willing to leave that job?

Gail, I've just read your thread and I am sick to my stomach for you. Please please please ask your husband to find a new job. I know he'll probalby say you're crazy but your marriage is MUCH more important than his job!

My WSTBXH started the same way. Granted, it became physical very quickly, but it started with them going for lunches, talking, sharing stories about their spouses and families...and then it became talking about their feelings and before you could blink, they were writing love notes and saying they were soulmates and couldn't live without each other.

It sounds like your husband still loves you and there's still hope for your marriage if you take swift action now! You are NOT paranoid and it is NEVER safe for men and women to spend that much time alone with each other "bonding." There's the "men and women can't be friends" cliche for a reason!! And you should make it clear that it is NEVER okay for him to spend significant time alone with another woman, ever. You are the only woman he should ever do that with.

My husband would think I was out of my mind if I pushed him to leave his job. He only began working there last Feb, and is off of probation next month and will receive a raise at that time. We also have all of our benefits through his job now. To be honest, because I know how long it took him to get this job and all of the interviews he went to, it would not be easy to do. There are two positions opening up within the next year he wants to try for and thinks they will be his dream job. He's been getting in close with the manager of this department and doing all he can to demonstrate he'd be good for the position.

We did end up talking a little last night. He was out in the garage and I went out and asked if we're not on speaking terms. He said that we are and said I didn't come downstairs when I got home. I told him he knew our son and I had come back and that I was surprised he wouldn't come up to find out what the doctor had said. Also he walked past me to go the garage and said nothing. He was full of it and was sulking.

I told him that I don't want to have arguments with him, but that this issue is the big elephant in the room. I told him I can tell he is upset. He said he is, but reiterated to give him some time and he'd get over it. He is very angry with me right now I feel, but is being passive aggressive.

I asked him hypothetically what would happen if I said "Okay, fine go ahead and be friends with her." and then six months down the road a new woman starts working in his office who was more attractive but also in a relationship. I asked if that would be okay if he went in her car, texted, facebooked, went to lunches, etc. He said no, it wouldn't because that would be different if she were attractive. The entire reason I brought this up is because he tried saying earlier that he did not find his coworker attractive whatsoever. I asked him why would it be different. I mean according to him I should just trust him, right? So whether it's a woman who is average looking, or one who is a stunning knockout, or one who is married, or one who is single - none of this should matter using his logic, because it is all about trusting him and he would never in a million years cheat.

He said it's not the same. I just stared off at the wall and didn't say much else. He was clearly agitated and we are going around in circles.

He is already there, gail. He is already in an EA even if it is only in his head at this point. He is teetering on the edge of first admitting to himself and then to HER that he is indeed attracted to her and then the slope gets very steep and slippery right to a PA. This has to be nipped now while he still feels in love with you. Set up counseling with the Harley's NOW. I was the wayward who did not find the OM attractive. The OM was my "friend" long enough to know my weaknesses and I allowed my boundaries to be moved until I was in a full blown A.

I then watched my H do this was a LD ex g/f. It was the mutual admiration society with those two until it became PA and then he HATED ME with a passion and with RAGE.

I agree he is having an EA in his head. I don't know this woman, but I have looked into her a bit on her facebook page, and just reading the correspondence between her and my husband. From what I can tell she is happy with her boyfriend. She even sent an invitation to my husband the day he deleted her off of facebook to attend her boyfriends firehouse fundraising party. She makes posts often that she misses him, and how great their weekend was.

But the thing that does make me a bit uneasy about her, not that she really matters much here, but she's been divorced twice at age 29 (bizarre imo) and she has only been dating this boyfriend a couple of months and I know her BF isn't meeting her needs to go on dates and spend time together. They can only see each other on weekends due to his schedule, and them living 45 minutes apart.

My husband is the one who has initiated most of the contact between them from what I can tell. Also, he did tell me this OW thought it was bizarre he sent her that drunken text at 2:30 in the morning.

So I don't think she is emotionally where my husband is, although I can see warning signs that she could potentially get there with the lack of time with her BF and that she has poor boundaries as well.

He on the other hand is pretty smitten with her I feel, even though he adamantly denies this. I can feel that he has feelings for her, and I think it is why he is so upset and keeps saying give him time "to get over it" - to get over her?

I also think he will break agreement we have. I'm not sure when, but I think it'll happen more than likely.

My now X had a co-worker that he was obsessed with. I think she was honorable and had good boundaries---I dont' think she ever got to where he was with her (in his head). He would have had an affair with her in an instant I believe if she was game.

He had/has a high need for admiration. There was/is a hole in him I couldn't fill...There were so many incidents in our marriage like the one you are going through. And he would try to make me feel crazy for not liking it....He would say, 'I've never known ANYONE as jealous as you!' The FACT is I am not overly jealous, but jealousy IS a normal reaction to a threat to a marriage.

Before I heard of MBs I left WH...over abusive treatment...and was gone for 18months. He STILL didn't get it. He just pretended like nothing was wrong and eventually pacified me enough to get me to come home. As I said, that was pre-MB. If I knew then what I know now, I would stayed gone then. Our son was about a year old when I left..I wanted so bad to have a famiy for ds that I ignored so much junk. The next 7 years were filled with all sorts of IB, DJ and AO on his part. I just raised my son and did the best I could. I stayed because I wanted a family for ds, but WH was not family minded.

Hindsite is 20/20 and I now know he was NEVER going to 'get' it.

Are you going to have this moved to SAA? Because I completely agree with faithful that this needs be treated as an EA. That's what I was trying to tell you earlier about not being able to unring the bell. Once ENs are met and romantic feelings develop, you can't turn it off.

There is an article on the steps of adultery by Pepperband over in SAA that would be good for you to read. By the time that my H was spending time with OW1 + OW2 and keeping it a SECRET, it was already PAST the point where he had developed romantic feelings.

I also just wanted to add that it doesn't really matter if the OW seems as emotionally invested as your H. Both OW1 and OW3 did not seem as serious about the As as my H did. OW3 is a newlywed with a baby and wrote on her wall during the same month that the A started "I have the world's best husband!!" and had a whole album devoted to pictures of herself with her H. Some women just seem to enjoy the attentions and being pursued by a married man.

Re the job, I am not sure how to proceed, if you should wait to find more evidence of contact before demanding that he leave or you should try getting him to leave now (hopefully others will chime in on this) but make no mistake about it, I don't think there is any way you two will be able to R your marriage if he stays there.

The past three weeks we've met up every Thursday to go to lunch or the Farmers Market near his office. His lunch break is not always at the same time, someone needs to be able to cover him before he can go so he always sends me a text message an hour to a half an hour before hand letting me know the time. It's usually between 11am and 1:00pm that he lets me know.

He hasn't sent one over. I sent him a message five minutes ago asking if we were going, he has not replied yet. I have a feeling he is going to give me an excuse that he can't go to lunch today, or he already went because he had a small window of time when someone could cover him.

He responded to my "are we going to go to lunch today" with "it's up to you" to which I responded "what time would be able to go" and he replied "whenever" - he's being aloof any icy with me now. I said I could be there in 30 minutes. Part of me thinks he would rather me not come, but instead is using this approach. I'm going regardless of whether or not he wants me to though.

His reaction to all of this is very telling don't you think?

He wouldn't pout like this if you said he couldn't have lunch alone with BOB or JACK, now would he?

Nope, nor would he need time to "get over" not having lunch with BOB or JACK.

gail,

again call the MB counseling center NOW. Get a plan in place to get your H on board with MB principals. If you can't afford to call the counseling center the call the radio program. Do not wait until things get worse.

(Thanks! I am sorry for your sitch too.)

If the boyscout thing strikes you as true then admiration is a biggie.

He will spend time with whoever or whatever makes him feel like a knight in shining armour. She probabaly knows it too.

I'm seeing lots of similarities Gail.

First the "she thought I was crazy for sending drunken text"
Um what I got was my H 'fell asleep' on OWs couch and she gave him hell the next morning because she already has two kids and doesnt need three.

Um yeah, that never happened It was a story made up just so I would trust the OW.

Unfortunatley its classic gaslighting for a cake eater to make the wife believe the OW is virtuous/happy in her relationship. The h knows he cant hide his symptoms of addiction, but maybe he can hide the OW's. this will make you work harder on the relationship without suspecting the real possibility of an affair.

so he has cake at hom e- and cake at work, which stays safe.

I cant tell you how many plans I made for us which got the response 'its up to you'.

Cheaters like to demonise their spouses - it gives their conscience a rest. So it sounds like sulky toddler boy is demonising you as a control freak.

If you want to move this to SAA (Lots more traffic on there and advice on how to beat this)
Click notify below and ask the moderators to move it....

Gail,

My WSTBXH claimed all along that OW was after him. I asked if he loved her and he said "no." And that he didn't find her attractive - that she was infatuated with him. My ego let me believe this - I couldn't believe that my H (very attractive man) would be attracted to her (dumpy, bad dresser, uneducated, socially inept and immature - the opposite of me). But what she did REALLY WELL was boost my H's ego - emails/texts I saw were always (you are the greatest, you're awesome, you're so smart, I'm so lucky, blah blah blah).

He eventually fell in love with her. Hard not to when it's all sex in hotel rooms and you're awesome - at home it's do the dishes, put the cranky kid to bed and how you like my flannel pjs?

The reality is this - any woman who gets involved with a married man has a screw loose. I was single and worked in a very male dominated business. The only time I went to lunch with any married men was to discuss business - NEVER AS FRIENDS. And usually, we had company. We never discussed relationship issues. But I have healthy boundaries with men.

The whole time he was cheating...he made me feel ugly, inadequate, crazy, incompetent. He sulked big time after I caught him the first time with the text messages and because I didn't act - they continued working together and he and I did not address the issues (he,too, has a need to please everyone around him by being the hero) in our marriage with him, his entitlement and desire grew and he began to rationalize doing the cruelest things to me.

You have a real chance if you act now and call Dr Harley to give you a plan.

I have notified the mods to move this to SAA. I wasn't sure how to do that previously, and kept forgetting to ask! Thank you for the heads up indiegirl.

Money is tight, so I don't think calling for counseling is an option. I will try to send an email like last time to Dr. Harley, but they no longer broadcast the MB program here and I have no headphones at work to listen to the response. Unless it is replayed? I'll start trying to sum all of this up in an email tonight.

Lunch went okay. When we first met he was upset over a coworker asking him for help right as he was on his way out the door. He ranted a bit about that, and then we started walking and looking for a restaurant. We found an outdoor one and sat and the conversation went alright. He did a lot of the talking, and I asked questions to show interest (even though honestly it wasn't stuff I particularly care about) I laughed at his jokes, and threw in some input as well. He seemed to be fairly happy as we were leaving and kissed me several times before he walked back to his building.

I feel better he stopped with the stonewalling. One thing I absolutely cannot stand is being given the silent treatment, or him acting icily towards me. I'd rather have a heated argument than do the other. He knows this too, I have told him it makes me feel nuts when communication is cut off.

I expect he will switch off and on as he has the past week. Going from being agreeable and loving, to icy or arguing with me and calling me insecure. He is obviously emotional about this, because he has an emotional attachment (as you guys said, he wouldn't feel this upset if it were Bob) to her and it is being threatened by me. He doesn't like being in this position of having to choose, he wants to keep eating his cake I realize.

He absolutely will have to choose though, because another lunch with her means plan B from me. In the meantime I will continue to watch, and be as pleasant as I can be while refusing to back down on this EA.

So far the past two days there have been no texts or phonecalls from his phone to her. Although, they can always talk at work or on work phones and computers so it's not much of a comfort.

That behavior causes me to go absolutely NUTS. I cannot stand to be shutdown, ignored or worse he pretends to go to sleep! Grrrr... it is abusive behavior IMHO.

faithful follower: I could not agree more. I think it is abusive too, it's his way of punishing me I feel and I have done absolutely nothing wrong which makes me feel even more crazy!

I can see if someone is just really upset and doesn't want conflict, and want to collect themselves before having a conversation. In that case he could say to me, "I love you, but I am upset right now and want to talk to you in a bit when I have collected my thoughts a bit" -- if he said that I would understand. But that isn't what his icy attitude is about I don't think, it is about the punishment and trying to get me to back down.

That is exactly what it is about. I KNOW my H is trying to not be that person any more. He once not long ago apologized to me and said he still did that purposefully knowing what my response would be long after his affair was over just because it was a "habit". HUH? I called him on it as abusive and hurtful.

My H hates conflict. So he used passive/aggressive behavior to shut me down. I now call him on it. But, he is not wayward anymore and I could NOT call him on it when he truly had something he needed to hide. You are going to need to learn to step out of the dance when he starts to do this. It is HARD but you can do it. I am extremely reactive so it plays perfectly into my angry, chasing, pleading behaviors. I had to change MY behavior to stop this ugly pattern.

It does rile me up, and there have been times I've exploded because I am tired of being ignored and shut out. I have been better about it as the years have gone on. So far I have not become angry once during this whole thing (well, not in front of him anyway) and have stayed fairly calm and firm. Which honestly surprises me that I've been able to do this, but I am certain coming here and getting the advice I have, and reading others stories has been invaluable and has made a huge difference in my responses.

I have to admit to something that I know is ugly. The OW is half asian and I've seen her pics. Everytime I see an Asian woman now I get these feelings of anger and jealousy now.

Also, I have been feeling so disgusting and this is really taking a toll on my self esteem. I know this goes far deeper than physical appearances, and my husband is having emotional needs met by this woman. But I know she is a lot thinner than I am and I feel like a cow lately.

I have PCOS and have always struggled with my weight. I lost 25lbs to get down to 150 (I am 5'7")and have maintained that for a while but I never got to my goal of 130.

I need to start working out, starting tonight. I know I shouldn't let it make me feel bad, but it does. I don't want to be out of shape or chubby. The fact she is thinner and my weight has been a life long struggle really hits me where it hurts.

She's a size 4, and that is about what the last woman he had an EA with was as well. I haven't been a size 4 since elementary school and that is not a joke.

Well, get this, I am size 4 and half-Asian (supposedly the "type" my H is has always been attracted to) and my H has had several affairs on me!

My H has a strong EN for physical attractiveness particulary when it comes to weight so over the last three years I have worked hard on getting in great shape and when I looked at OW3's FB photos, I was shocked, she is NOT thin!

It's everything to do with boundaries and nothing to do with looks...

I know it's easier said than done but try not to get down on yourself. However, I do encourage you to exercise, it's natural destresser/antidepressant.

Hang in there

I agree with susie q, lots of people shocked my hub chose the OW to have an affair with

Shes chunky and old looking. The thing is she knows how to flutter her eyelashes and be oh so grateful for every little thing he does.

Plus its fantasyvile. They show up with their lies and stories and moaning and just say whatever the other one wants to hear.

By the way you h reacted to your admiration and laughing at jokes, id say thats the need shes meeting.

And btw, she could be a supermodel, but if she having an EA with your h, she's damaged goods willing to take scraps and look up to a MARRIED man who is flirting with her.

That doesnt sound like much of a catch to me.

I know this sounds good...but for some reason it makes me deeply uneasy. He's been pouting so much that suddenly he's falling in line with your demands? I'm worried he's just becoming even more secretive now, especially if he knows you're watching his phone. And that's a really bad sign.....

I know it's hard to leave a job in this economy. But.....is he at least willing to start looking? And leave if the opportunity arises?

"I have to admit to something that I know is ugly. The OW is half asian and I've seen her pics. Everytime I see an Asian woman now I get these feelings of anger and jealousy now. "

Gail,

This is no more ugly than a BS seeing a wooden bridge where a WS had a moment with an A partner. It's a trigger. Do you hate all bridges? No. Do you hate the trigger that every wooden bridge gives you? Yes. Your thoughts and triggers are 100% justified, and at the same time folks here will help you deal with them. Don't worry about getting all politically correct here. Unless you are worried that MB folks will think you are an anti-wooden-bridge-tite.

Triggers are triggers, whether in a person or a hair color or a rock in a pond. There is nothing ugly about your particular trigger except the defintion, which sucks.

Agree with other posters here. Your H is having an emotional need met and it's probably admiration.

Your looks probably don't have a lot to do with it, although working out will make you feel better about yourself and make you feel more attractive. When you feel better about yourself, you'll be able to meet his needs and think clearly. I have found some of the clearest moments during Plan A and Plan B on an elliptical trainer...while listening to CeeLo's "F*** You" of course.

FWIW...My H has repeatedly said to me that I am the most beautiful and sexy woman he has ever been with. When I met his friends, they were all shocked he got me to date him:) Even after I discovered the affair, he commented on how good I look.

Never stopped him from still hooking up with the loser OW or ruining our lives..the loser OW who looks like an oompa loompa hooker with bad teeth.

I hear you on being triggered. The OW is of a different nationality and when I hear her language or see someone that looks like her, I want to punch them in the face!!!

Gail, you can click on my thread link in my siggy and see where I began when I came here almost 2 years ago. I will tell you that your story sounds so much like mine, that I could only read page 1 before I had to post to you. HE IS HAVING AN AFFAIR. There is absolutely NO doubt in my mind, as there is none in yours, which is why you chose to come back. I apologize if you answered any of the following questions and comments I will make in this or future posts, I had a VERY hard time reading what I deem as myself 2 years ago. I shudder to think about what you are on the brink of, and what you are about to go through.

A little short form of my own story. My WH and I started dating when I was 16 and he was 18. I was his first GF, and he was my first SF. We were mostly happy. Most people described us as a perfect fit, he and I were like ying and yang. His strengths covered my weaknesses and my strengths covered his.

He always had weak boundaries around women, but he would just say, "I already have you, so I am just comfortable around women now, since there is no pressure." before we were married, he was most likely an OM in a L/D EA. This caused a HUGE rift, but we got through it. He had female friends at work, always. I was always invited to go out with them, etc. He even had 2 different women who he would go to lunch and breaks with who I referred to as his "work wives." It was all innocent fun. he would tell me about the pranks they would all pull on each other, etc. All the funny things they would do. Sometimes, I would laff along, and others, I thought they just weren't funny.


Then, the fateful date of Nov 9th, 2007 at 119pm(this rocked my world, so I remember it clearly), I received an anonymous phone call from a co-worker of his. Apparently, he was spending a lot of time with a female co-worker, and this anonymous source wanted to let me know. I was SHOCKED. I was devastated. I was lost, I didn't have MB. I didn't know what to do, and I believed what he said. I believed them BOTH. They lied to me. And OW, she had a BF at the time. Not anymore. Now her BF, is MY WH( ). There were MANY times that I should have demanded that he leave his job, and stay NC with her FOR LIFE. WHo knows, things may have been different if I had the benefit of MB back then, but it sure is helping me now.

You caught this now, and you have the benefit I never got, use it. USE MB ALL THE WAY.

I agree he has probably become more secretive. I wish I could trust him, but I don't. I've been looking at getting a phone tracker and I think I am going to put a voice activated recorder in his vehicle for those days he does drive to work.

As for the job, I don't think he would. I think things would come to a separation before he would leave. Not because of her, because he loves where he works and has high hopes for advancement. He was in a deep depression when he was staying at home and unemployed. He also did have a difficult time finding this job.

One good thing, maybe, that I had forgot is that by January he might be transferred to a different location. They are breaking up the one central location into five locations spread out. The bad thing is she could possibly be transferred to his location. They work in different departments so it's unlikely, but it could happen I suppose.

You're right. It is a trigger. When we were at lunch yesterday an attractive Asian lady was sitting next to our table and it brought me instantly back to what has been happening.

I am sorry, but this description is hilarious.

I agree Admiration is a biggie for my husband. I am going to try to giggle at his jokes, compliment him, ask him questions on things I know he likes to talk about and so forth.

We've been together nearly 12 years now, and married nine-years. I have come to a point where I blow him off a lot of the time when he's talking. I can see that now. I tend to shake my head at him when he says things too. I act a lot differently than I did when we were in the beginning of our relationship.

Another thing, and I hate even saying this but it is true is that we've been isolated for a long time. Our oldest son who is autistic has had several behavioral problems and often when he's around other children there is an issue, and out in public he's used to have large outbursts where everyone stopped to look. Over the years we just began isolating ourselves more and more to where we hardly ever leave the house anymore and don't have a lot of friends. I am bored, and I know he is bored too. I think having an affair would bring a lot of excitement to a rather dull life.

I told him last night we need to bring out children out of the house more often. Our oldest son is a lot better now, part of it is he is getting older, and he has also been in various therapies since he was three.

I also am going to continue to try and arrange one date night a week for just him and I, and want to try to do new things on these dates. In addition to the date night, I want to still do the lunches with him on a weekly basis. We haven't been meeting our UA needs in a long time and this whole thing has also opened my eyes to that.

It's strange how you can let things slide so much and don't notice it until something like this happens and then suddenly the issues are all so clear.

Scotland: Before I made this thread I searched for emotional affairs and your thread is the one I ended up reading. I stayed up for several hours and read almost the entire thing.

I was so impressed by the way you handled things, and how well you are doing now. I hope if things ever do come to the point they did in your marriage I can be as strong as you have been.

Reading your thread made me realize even if I don't prevent this from turning into a full on affair, or the next woman down the road, I would be okay in any case.

gail, this is going to be the key here, but it will take much more than just one date night. In order to create romantic love a couple needs 20+ hours of undivided attention time meeting these top 4 emotional needs: conversation, affection, rec companionship and sexual fulfillment. It takes 15 hours per week to MAINTAIN the romantic love. This is time that should be spent ALONE, without children and without friends around. I would focus more on doing with him ALONE than doing things with other children.

If you can get 2-3 date nights and a weekend afternoon together, you could easily make up the rest of the time at home when the kids are asleep. The BEST UA time, however, will be when you are OUT and away from the kids. And the reason for that is one has a completely different mindset when they have dressed up and are out versus sitting at home on the couch in your jogging pants late at night. Going out is exciting and fun and adds a whole fresh, fun dimension to your marriage.

This one step is so important that Harley says his program WON'T WORK without it. When he was in active practice he would not even counsel a couple who would not commit to the weekly UA time. So, that is where I would start, because I suspect you have not been spending 15 hours of UA time a week together and that has made your marriage vulnerable.

15-20 hours a week with no kids? We probably don't even get 5 hours.

This past week I've been making an effort and we spent maybe an hour and a half going to dinner the other night, one hour going to lunch yesterday and some conversations that have maybe added up to a couple of hours. That is maybe 4.5 hours - with me trying to to get us more alone time. Normally there wouldn't have been the dinner, there wouldn't have been the lunch and throughout the week we would have talked about our kids, bills, etc. and maybe hung out and watched a tv show or two together.

Up until two weeks ago, our last date was in February.

Finding a sitter just once a week has been difficult, more than that unfortunately won't work out most of the time. So I need to be creative to get those hours in. I can make it two trips a week down to his office for lunch. I'd love to go daily, but it would end up being too expensive with the parking and meals. Also I never go to lunch, I've always eaten at my desk and worked through lunch. It's hard to get all of my work done when I am gone 1-2 hours during the day. But two days should be doable, and that will give us two hours a week of UA we weren't doing before.

One date night a week should total up to a few extra hours, so we'd be at five hours. Wow, this is tough.

We'd have to spend two hours each night after the kids go to bed to come close to the 20 hours. But we are usually in bed one hour after our kids, and in that time are prepping things for the next day.

How on earth do people do this?

From the time my husband walks in the door from work, til the time we go to bed is four hours. In that time there is dinner, cleaning up after dinner, getting kids to bed, taking care of our dog, getting things ready for the next day, etc.

Gail, I would work REAL HARD on getting in quality UA time, because it will make the biggest impact on your marriage. If you can get more nights out by hiring babysitters, I would do it. Look for creative ways to put less important things aside. There is NOTHING more important than your marriage. Your kids safety and security depends on your solid, intact marriage. And this is even more important to you because you have an autistic son. A divorce would be a DISASTER.

Will you read this and come back and give me your thoughts? The Policy of Undivided Attention

And here is Dr Harley's quote from more from Effective Marriage Counseling:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"When I see a couple for the first time, I let them know that my program will require a minimum of fifteen hours a week of their time. If they can't dedicate that much time while I'm counseling them, I suggest they find another counselor because my plan won't work without it."

The way they do it is to push aside all those less important things and have a BABYSITTER get the kids to bed and take care of the dog. You could order a pizza or something for the kids. When your H hits the door, he changes clothes and you go OUT for the evening.

NONE of the above tasks are as important as your marriage.

Is watching a tv show together considered UA?

I did this with him last night, but this time it was different. I chose to watch a show with him that he's been trying to get me to watch for years. It's his favorite show of all time and he loves talking about it. I watched an episode with him last night and agreed it was pretty good and we talked about some of the stuff from it for a few minutes. He loves scifi shows, and I've always turned down watching them with him and telling him scifi just isn't my cup of tea.

I know we need to be looking for more quality things than this to do, personally I would love it if we could find more time to go hiking and canoeing - two things we both love and used to do often when we were dating. But I am wondering if something like last night also counts?

noooooooo, because your focus is on TV. But isn't TV watching much less important than being together and meeting each others needs? A better plan would be to hire a babysitter and go out for a nice dinner and a drive.

Some of my BEST UA time is driving in the car together. We really bond doing this. And I heard Joyce Harley mention this very thing on the radio show a couple of weeks ago. She said since it is such good UA time for them that they will plan a dinner at place an hour or two away so they can get in some good drive time.

Gail, a great way to approach this is to actually sit down and schedule the time out for the next week. Write down dates, times, activities TOGETHER. You are much less likely to blow this off if you have a planned schedule.

And this is what it will take at first when you are both reluctant to spend all that time together. After a few weeks, you will be EAGER to do it and less likely to put it off. The reason you will be eager to do it is because you will be more in love. It doesn't take that long for the UA time to start having a major impact on your marriage.

Another good idea is to start this off by going off for a weekend alone. Spending 24/7 together for a weekend is a good start to this new way of life.

I think i did a pretty good Plan A so I'll tell you what I did. (Not as effective b/c my H was still spending 8-10 hours/day with the oompa loompa and fully entrenched in his affair.)

- We went out 1x week for dinner & movie. Someplace new.
- I joined a swim club and we went swimming together 1-2x week - shared a lane so we'd touch each other as we passed, compete for # of laps, etc.
- We'd sneak out of the house for a 1/2 hour walk alone.
- Dropped off DD at relatives for the day on a weekend - maybe 1x month.
- Went to bed at same time - maybe over a glass of wine. We'd talk about what the other did that day or what we were reading.
- Always made sure I greeted him at door with a hug and kiss. Would spend a few minutes after he got home just talking to him.
- Made dinners he liked.
- Made sure I always looked nice.
- Would surprise him the bedroom...leave that to your imagination.
- Played card games together.

I had a lot of help but here are some suggestions on how you may be able to do this without spending a fortune : find a college student to help you in the afternoons (lots of education students looking to get experience as a nanny for not a lot of money); join/start a baby-sitting co-op (you trade nights with other parents).

As far as admiration goes, I complimented my H more but also made sure I didn't interrupt him (a major pet peeve). I also checked with him on everything - what do you think if we did XYZ? I made extra efforts to notice when he did something nice for me, when he made an effort with my DD, etc.

Well I tried getting my mother to babysit tonight. She said she's too tired and has to clean her pool. She agreed to take my older son, but not my toddler. Which doesn't do me much good because I can't get UA time with him here.

Tomorrow won't work either, she has plans.

I feel frustrated. My mother did watch my boys a couple of times recently, but prior to that it had been six months since she last had. She turns me down often, and there are no other grandparents, or aunts, or friends, or other family.

I did find a babysitting site, most charge $10-15 an hour, so doing it once a week would be tough, let alone multiple times per week.

My husband and I aren't part of a church, or any organization, and really don't have many close friends. His only friend is a single male, and the only close friend I have lives an hour away and has two sets of grandparents who watch her boys all of the time so she has no need for swapping.

I feel kind of hopeless right now. I'm trying to do my best here but I just feel like things are stacked against me between no support, and the EA with the coworker.

Then you will need to get the boys in bed earlier and give you both 1 - 2 hours/night of alone time. That may be sitting on the porch drinking some wine and counting stars. Maybe you sit on the patio and play rummy or some time of card game.

Tough~

Gail, just keep on trying. Maybe exchange babysitting with friends, neighbors. Do you have any teenagers in your neighborhood who sit will sit for less? Let's say you hire a babysitter for $9 an hour on Tuesday and Friday for a total of $54 a week.[6 x $9] And then ask your mom to watch them for 6 hours on Saturday afternoon. There are 12 good quality hours right there.

And keep in mind, that this iniative is more important than anything else in your lives. This is not just mad money, this is a very important step for your marriage and your family.

Can you enlist your mother to babysit for you once a week in exchange for some cleaning around her house? Try and think of creative ways to negotiate with her.

My neighbors keep their children away from my son, I assume because of his ASD and the kids/parents find him to be bizarre. I tried inviting them over to my sons last birthday and no one came. He has never received an invite their bday parties. I have asked the mothers if their boys can come over and play, and am given excuses every time.

I'd be a little nervous with a teenager watching my son because he once wandered off and hid in a neighbors bathroom when I had a teenage cousin (who is now a bit older, but has a job and doesn't do babysitting anymore) watching him for a few hours while we went to my birthday party.

He needs to be supervised and be with a person who would be able to calm him down if needed.

I know this is why my mother is reluctant to watch them for me most of the time, one or the other isn't too bad, but combined they are a lot of work.

There have been times my husband and I are so overwhelmed because we have little respite from a child who is very difficult at times, and another who is in a stage that requires a lot of attention and tests limits often.

Would you trust your mother with a heart-to-heart talk and tell her you and your husband are working hard to build a romantic marriage? Many parents aren't awfully involved with their grandchildren, but she may come through if you and she set something up that works for her, too.

You could bring over the little one around naptime or for an overnighter. I know what's it like--I'm a granny, too, but when my daughter and son-in-law wanted to go on a date, I was there for her. Your mother can understand that children can be a bit of a challenge to the marriage in that the couple often has very little time alone together.

Also, you should start looking for a church or other organization where you can make some friends. It's really good to have friends and support when you're parenting. You might find one or two who would love to swap babysitting with you.

If you can't always get out of your house, put the children to bed early and be together without distractions. The older one can be in his bedroom even if he's not going to bed. Often my daughter has to resort to this tactic, because we are living far away for a while with my husband's job. After the bedroom doors are shut, they can have an adults only conversation for an hour or so before they go to bed themselves.

There will always be things to do and tasks to complete, but they are not as important as saving and building your marriage. When things get crazy (they have four young children,) my daughter uses paper plates and very convenient meals so there's not a lot of clean up afterward.

Gail, once you get used to leaving your kids with a sitter, you won't feel so scared. Kids do wander off, that is applicable to all kids, not just yours! My nephew is autistic and he is actually easier to watch than others because all one has to do is put on a Jim Carrey movie and he is in a trance!

Just go places close to home initially until you get over your fears. That way, if something goes wrong, you can come home. Line up some local teenagers and build a list of those who can do well with your kids.

You really need to figure this out, Gail. Not having any respite from these kids is hurting your marriage. And a hurt marriage is NOT GOOD for your kids!

I appreciate the advice, I know I am sounding negative here. I will try to contact a babysitter from the site. There were some who said they had experience with ASD children. Realistically I can pay for one night a week for about five hours (that would run $50-75) but it would have to be done on the weekend since my husband gets home around 6:30pm and we go to bed by 10:30 and have to get things ready for the next day in that time slot as well.

We live in the middle of no where, which doesn't help. There isn't much around here to do, so we usually drive somewhere a bit more populated when dining out, or seeing a movie, etc. So driving time needs to be factored in too if we're to go out.

I am going to initiate contact with a babysitter this weekend and try to get some interviews going in time hopefully for next weekend. That could give me five hours of the UA if I can work that out.

But I'll need to figure out the other 15 hours somehow. I will persist with my mom and try to get her to do it once a week, even if it is for a few hours so we can just grab dinner or go on a walk.

I have told her about our marriage problems, and I think she knows why I am trying to have her babysit more the past few weeks but I guess in some ways I don't want to burden her. She and my step father have been having their own marriage issues, and they run a business and are often on the brink of meltdown and constant stress. To add to that, my 15-year-old half sister is having a lot of problems. Her grades have gone bad, she has been getting in trouble in school and a couple of months ago they found out she was having sex with a boys a couple of years older. I think my mom may be in worse shape than me sometimes.

Good girl!! That is a good START!! Your mother really needs to step up to the plate for you, Gail.


I would put all that less important stuff aside and MAKE TIME for some time alone during the week. There is nothing else that is as important as this. Getting ready for the next day, any of that is LESS IMPORTANT than your marriage. You and your H have plenty of time to go out between 6:30 and 10:30. That is 4 good hours you have for UA time, so I would put these less important things aside.

You can't just bunch up a few hours on the weekend and call it good. If you do that, you are going to be disappointed when you don't get a payoff for your efforts. You need to have good quality UA time during the week to make this work. There is no good reason you can't spread this out and go out during the week too.

It is just too important.

I think a college student who is studying to be in the teaching field or behavioral health field would be a perfect fit for you. Do you have a college nearby?

Joining a church would be good for you too.

You must find a way to meet your H's emotional needs.

I'm going to be harsh here but would you rather spend a few hundred dollars on babysitting or tens of thousands of dollars on a divorce, child therapy, therapy for yourself if and when your husband has an affair and leaves you for OW? That could be in your future.

Think the earlier bedtime is great, too, so you can sit around and talk. But I think you guys could use a little excitement outside the home too.

This is absolutely how you should look at this, Gail. Your marriage is rocky and this is just too important to put off. The UA time is the KEY to falling in love and people who are in love DON'T GET DIVORCED! This is marriage protection we are talking about here.


And your UA time at home should be the minority of your UA time. It is not the best quality UA time because a) it has to be LATE after kids are in bed so it comes at a time when you are both EXHAUSTED and cranky and b) it is too easy to get distracted by domestic chores [oh, I just remembered the clothes in the dryer!], or the phone rings, or there will some stupid show on TV. It is just too easy to get sidetracked and go back to your old habits when you are home. And how attractive do you look at 9:00 at night after a long day of work? I look pretty bad!

Anyway, I think you have a good start on this and I hope you can get some support from your mother!

You guys are completely right, and I am going to make this my #1 priority.

I figure five hours at least with a babysitter should be doable, maybe more if I can find a more affordable one which I will be on the hunt for. Hopefully I can stretch it to more around 8 hours a week with a babysitter. I can definitely do the 2 hours a week meeting with him for lunch, so that would give me almost or up to half of the UA (if I am going for 20 hours)

I will broach my mother about getting in maybe five hours a week with her.

If I can do that I would just need five or so additional hours to make it to 20 hours. We can do this by earlier bed time and I will start doing quicker dinners, paper plates, etc so that I have time to prep things for the next day before H gets home from work. Bedtime for the kids is now going to be at 8:30 (it has been 9:30) and that will give us two hours before bed of time to spend.

H is enthusiastic when we get to go out on dates, but hanging out with me at home not so much. So I think for this reason too trying to get out as much as possible will be better.

Sounds like either recreational companionsip or interesting conversation are imprtant to him if hes enthusiastic about going out....

THAT'S the right attitude!!




And maybe after you restore the love to your marriage by going out alot, you will enjoy being together at home more than you do now. But I do know that DH and I have a completely different attitude when we dress up, smell nice and head out for the evening. It is exciting and we enjoy being together! But when we stay home, it is nice, but not the SAME.

Gail, you will feel so much better personally if you do this. You will have a much better attitude about yourself and your marriage because it can't be easy on you taking care of these kids. You need a break!

Do you have the Five Steps to Romantic Love workbook? They sell that cheap on this website and it has the UA worksheet and the RC worksheet. I would get that and tear out the UA worksheet and make copies. Get into the habit of actually sitting down together every Sunday afternoon and scheduling out the time for the next week. THIS IS REAL IMPORTANT. It is too easy to put off time that is not scheduled. The workbook also gives you tips on how to do this, for example, if your time together was not really undivided, then you DEDUCT it. You will BOTH write out the ACTUALs and whoever estimates the lowest amount of time, is the time you go by.

Yes Gail.
Take off your old thinking cap and put a new one on. One that will help you focus on creating a romantic relationship with the man you love and wanted to marry.

The kids are a result of that love.

You have to re-create your life in a way that gives the kids the ultimate care.

A mother and father who adore each other.

yk?

I think I must have that book around here somewhere because I remember doing those worksheets years ago. I'll have a look around. I did start making a list last week of possible date ideas, and came up with some good ideas that we'd both enjoy I think. I tried to think of a few things we can do together that we haven't done before, or haven't done since we were dating to try to make things more exciting and bring back that spark.

An interesting thing happened this evening. My husbands work situation is a long story and I'll spare all of the detail but basically when he was hired he was told he'd be doing one job. When he began he ended up being divided into 3 departments and hasn't been too happy about it but was being told he'd eventually go to just the one he was hired for when things were settled down.

Also, they have everything in one large centralized building. By 2014 that building will be gone and in the meantime they are already beginning to transfer people to one of the new five locations. My husband had just began when people were putting in their request for locations to go to and one of his supervisors filled it out on his behalf.

OW is a manager and he has been telling her for a while now he doesn't want to go to the location they're suggesting he go to and has been trying to figure out how to redo the request form since he never got to initially and everyone else did.

He came home and was MAD because he found out that the job he was told he was hired for is not what he is now going to be doing. He went to talk to his main supervisor and expressed he is not happy being divided up and wanted to know when he was going to work for her dept only (and to get away from OWs dept) and was told that there is no budget for the position they hired him for and he will keep having to be divided up or go primarily under the other supervisor (not OW - whew) He then asked what he should do about the relocation and changing that. She told him that OW was in charge of that and he'd have to go to her.

He came home and called OW a B**ch. I looked surprised and said "You don't have to call her that. I don't hate her and would not call her that myself" -- he said it has nothing to do with me. He apparently has been telling OW for weeks, if not months, that he does not want to go to this other location. She never once informed him of how to change it, let alone that SHE is in charge of making the change. He said she did not change him because it would have required her to do the paperwork and she chose to not mention it to him despite him bringing it up on several occasions that he wasn't happy. She knows he didn't get the opportunity to give his choice because it was his first week when others were filling out the requests.

I asked which location she was going to, and suggested maybe she was trying to get them to go to the same location. He says he doesn't know which locations she chose, and that so far nothing official has been given as to which they'll actually go to. They get to choose 3 sites, going in order of preference but it's no guarantee.

Whew.. sorry I went on for a while even though I said I would not.

Anyway, he has been upset since he came home. He said he has sat and listened to OW complain about her coworkers, the people she manages, and all of her problems and he can't believe she wouldn't lift a finger to help him get a piece of paper work turned in that he is entitled to have changed. There is nothing that says it is too late, his supervisor even notified him of this. It's just a matter of OW having to submit it for him.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention. He is thinking about quitting and said he is going to be looking for something better to come along. I of course encouraged him to do this and will continue to, and even look for new jobs for him.

Hey, gaillajn,
Happy to hear the update and the can-do attitude. I know babysitting can be expensive, but that's what it often takes to make a good marriage. My FWH travels for business at times, and our new rule is that I go with him, in order to avoid spending nights apart. That gets expensive, too, what with airline fare (we live on an island and that's our only way off) and extra restaurant meals that we have to pay for, etc. But the alternative is an atmosphere that is often dangerous to the marriage and me at home wondering if he's behaving himself. The price for peace of mind and to keep a marriage is incalculable.

Has he seen a different side to her after all? Maybe, if so great.

Please remember that he has already tried to throw you a few red herrings already though (telling you that she doesnt like him drunkenly texting her was definitely one - you dont do that to people who wouldnt appreciate it!)

Talking about leaving his job and actually leaving are two different things.

It just seems a very fast turn around from sulking because he couldn't lunch with her. Now he cant stand her?

Are you still snooping? What are your snooping methods?

Since he is aware that you don't like her he may have gotten sneakier. If you smile, nod, agree with the red herrings, he may get careless though.

I hope it is nippped in the bud, but make sure.

Carriers also only keep them for 5-10 days. If this makes it to court don't count on using text messages for your case.

Indiegirl: I agree he might be trying to throw me off. He is legitimately upset, that I have zero doubt about but I feel it is probably more due to the other issue and not so much the relocation.

I have heard him say several times he needs to get the location thing sorted though. He is not happy about where they are wanting to send him. I think he probably is irritated with OW if she didn't help him when it was her responsibility and sat and listened to him complain knowing full well she could help if she wanted to.

But mad enough to think she is a B word? I think he said that to throw me off as well.

I don't know if he'll really leave, but before yesterday I was convinced there would be no way to get him to. I am not happy that he is being jerked around at work, but the timing could not have been more perfect as I have spent the past few days thinking of ways to convince him to quit.

So far the only think I have done to check up is monitor his cell phone. So far, no deleted texts and no phone calls to her phone or any office phones where he works. They could still be talking at work, no way for me to check up on him there.

He's come home from work on time, and there have been no lunches purchased this week. I am keeping track of him going out to restaurants, coffee shops, etc. Especially looking for transactions that would indicate two people went, or anything more than a block or two from his office because I doubt he'd travel that far alone.

Also will be watching for ATM transactions. We never pull out cash and use our check cards for everything. If he pulls cash out suddenly I would know he was trying to hide me knowing where he's spending money.. so far none though.

Even the fact he's being jerked around could be a lie and just a play for time or reason to complain about her.

If hes that suspicious hes not going to use his phone or do anything too obvious - though they do get careless sometimes.

What about a Voice Activated Recorder in his car so you could hear if they talk in his car together? He may also call her in the car on his phone or on a secret affair phone?

GPS in the car to track his whereabouts, you can get gps installed on his phone too. reports sent to email.

Keylogger on the computer will give you a record of everything via email he does online, such as instant messaging etc

Set up a fake email address for the reports and for the receipts from companies before you buy. You dont want him seeing 'thanks for buying a var from us' messages in your account.

Getting a PI also an option

I got my GPS and VAR from ebay, but UK companies.

Can you purchase these things without him seeing it the bank transaction? The companies I used appeared on statement like they were just electronics companies. I had an excuse lined up that my brother wanted me to order him some speakers, but that his internet connection crashed as he was bidding.

Well the weekend went well. We got along pretty well, were laughing and enjoying each others company. He kissed me and told me he loved me while we were lounging around a few times.

Last night he went to go get an older laptop of ours to play a video game. I had left up a thread, his email, and his facebook on the screen. Apparently the battery died on me and I forgot to ever log back in (to log myself out) so he read a thread I made about this topic only it wasn't over here at MB. I had began dicussing this topic on the LS forum and came over here because I knew I'd receive better advice.

Anyway, what I said over there isn't much more than what I posted in my very first post. I've divulged far more here.

Even though my husband found this last night, he still decided to eat a midnight snack with me, have sex with me, and then wait until morning to bring it up. But he is extremely upset with me this morning and said I told "half truths" and twisted things. I asked him where I'd said a half truth, and told him everything I said in there I had said to his face.

He brought up the flower thing and sarcastically said "Yeah, I know I am such a bad husband. I go and buy my wife flowers. What a jerk."

He walked out the door to go to work. No goodbye, no kiss, he is pretty angry. Not sure how to smooth this over. As I said, I did not say anything there I hadn't said in person. I did not bash him. I actually said our marriage was going well up until this new friend, and commended him on his honesty with me about her initially.

All but one reply over there was in my favor. I think he sees me as twisting this, although I haven't - because it came from my perspective and some of the time I am guessing or going off of gut feelings. I also think he is angry that everyone agreed with me, including men and some people told me I should leave him.

I of course don't want to leave him, which is why I hopped over to here because I want solutions to save our marriage.

I think his reaction is a sign of the FOG. You have told the truth and he just doesn't like it. So sorry. That is his issue to deal with, gail. Don't apologize.

He also made a sarcastic remark regarding the comment I had made over there on our marriage being good up until this. He said I am doing my best to screw that up.

Standard nonsense.

After I exposed to my WSTBXH's work and family, he told me that I was making it impossible for him to ever come home again...But I guess sneaking out with OW in middle of the day (while at work) to have sex with her was bringing he and I closer together.

This is meant to deflect from the attention you are paying this issue and throw you off the scent. He wants to crawl back in his hole and you are bringing the light.

Its just a good excuse for him to have a go at you. Waywards love drama and to blame you for that drama. My h decided to have a go at me because someone else drove into my car - while it was parked in my companys' car park, someone hit it. Somehow that was my fault. It makes it easier for them to cheat on you if they can tell themselves you are either so bad they can't bear you or so good you make them feel bad!

I have to admit, I do feel bad about the flower thing. Yes, it was very sweet of him to bring me flowers - and maybe there was nothing sinister behind it. But three weeks in a row, and her being there with him when he picked them up. It just made me wonder if he was trying to show me affection, or impress her?

He also brought up two things from a long time ago this morning. He mentioned he's not the one who "slept with her ex boyfriend while we were dating" and "he's not the one who showed himself naked on the internet"

These two things are true. My H and I met online back in 1999. We began e-dating I suppose and after a couple of months I flew to meet him for the first time. We did a long distance relationship and my ex-bf was trying to win me back. I felt lonely, the LD relationship was difficult. And at the time I didn't know how if we would work out. There were no plans for me to move in with him or vice versa. At that time he was a guy I really liked, but who lived 1400 miles away and I had my doubts if it would work out and gave my ex a second chance. It lasted maybe a week when I realized I didn't want to be with my ex, and I wanted to be with my now H and I ended things. I told my H what happened and never tried to conceal it. My H would not have ever found out about it had I not confessed. I'm not saying it was right, it wasn't.. but I did confess it to him and this was long before we were married, or even in a serious relationship. I was nineteen years old.

From 2002-2005 my H and I worked opposite schedules after the birth of our son because we could not afford daycare. He worked overnights and I worked days. I would see him for a few minutes before I left out the door to go to work and then again when I got home from work right before he went to bed, and then when he woke up he left for work. This took a huge toll on our marriage. We grew apart and this is when the porn really started becoming an issue as well as the EA which occurred in 2005.

When I was sitting at home alone, I found a forum and wound up posting a picture of my breasts as well as some pics of myself in lingerie. I confessed this to him and told him that there was no excuse, and that I was behaving poorly and not being a good wife. I have never posted these sorts of pics of myself again. This happened six years ago.

I feel hurt he brought these up. These were big issues, but they are 12 and 6 year old events. I have not repeated my mistakes, and he never caught me, I confessed in both instances and felt terrible. I realized when I was posting pics of myself I was doing so because we'd grown apart and I didn't feel like our marriage was going to last. Again, not a good excuse, but after I realized why I'd done it I tried to figure out ways to not ever do it again. I've suggested marriage counseling and have taken all sorts of steps to try to make our marriage better.

My guess would be that he did buy the flowers to show her what a thoughtful H he is. Most waywards don't like the ugly truth out there it takes the shine off their pretty fantasy. The rest is just classic blameshifting. If he can push it back on you it takes the focus off what he is doing and gives him justification for what he is doing.

Faithful, as awful as I feel saying it - it is what I think too.

He pointed out this morning that he has a long history of surprising me with flowers. This is absolutely true. We have a policy of no roses on Valentines day (I instated the policy) because roses cost 3x as much, and it isn't as romantic when I know they're coming. I love the surprise of getting flowers sent on a Tuesday for no reason at all, just that he thought of me.

BUT... he does this on occasion. Maybe once or twice a year.

He bought me flowers three weeks in a row, and she was with him. The third time he bought me flowers he bought three separate bouquets. Very sweet, but not something he has ever done before.

He said this morning it was because flowers were so inexpensive at the farmers market, and he knows how much I love flowers.

Man is he making me feel awful over this. Had she not been present I would have never made the connection. It was seeing the photograph of him she posted on her Facebook saying he "must be in the doghouse.. lol" and knowing he was buying these in front of her that made me question his motives. I told him this morning that this is the reason.

gail, don't get too caught up in analyzing his fogbabbly or trying to defend yourself. I would just ignore this completely.

This is an important/difficult part of Plan A because our instinct is to try to reason or educate a wayward when they say/do these foggy things and all it does is result in lovebusters.

Use the broken record technique (come up with a couple of key phrases that you use over and over), change the subject and try to be pleasant.

Oh Gail the more I read, the more I see my sitch and my WH in your words. My WH also bought things for me while he was with OW. It was to make himself look good, and nothing else.

I see a lot of gaslighting going on, he is trying to distract you from HIM. It's like a magician doing a trick, they avert your attention so you can't see what they are really doing.

Plan A. Follow other people's advice, and hope that you have caught this early enough.

Orchids reverse fog babble might help her here with the gaslighting.

Anyone got the thread handy, I cant find it...

Gosh he is all over the place.

Last night he came home from work and acted like nothing had happened and spoke to me normally. I finally said to him that he had dropped a bomb on me earlier, and that I didn't exactly appreciate him drudging up issues from many years ago if he was doing so to get back at me.

He said he just felt defensive, and apologized for what he said.

Got my mother to take our boys, so we went out to dinner and spent a few hours of UA time together. All was going well.

This morning I get up early to go have coffee with him before he leaves for work. We bring up a male relative who has said some pretty ugly things to his wife. My husband says "I'm not an [censored] like that guy" to which I reply "I have never said or implied you are an [censored]. You have poor boundaries and perhaps are naive."

He went right into his speech about how I am ridiculous, and I am insecure. How he is always supposed to accommodate me and how I feel, but I don't reciprocate. I would never do something for him.

I asked what I am doing that is making him uncomfortable that he'd like me to stop. He replied with this issue of having female friends. I told him no, that he knew this was how I felt before he married me. That I feel too strongly about it to go along with it. He said it is irrational, and again remarked on it just being me. He told me those people over at the other forum have all been burned so of course they wouldn't trust another person. But that it is not normal what that he fundamentally does not believe in cheating. That I am insulting him by even suggesting he might. He compared cheating to murder and said it is like I am telling him me might go out and murder someone if he's not careful.

I became frustrated and began crying. I am so tired of this argument. I told him to go ahead and choose her over me, and that I am tired of having my feelings invalidated. I told him to do whatever he wants but that I am not going to change my mind.

His comments are really hurting me. It is just one dig after another, and he is passive aggressive most of the time with me now. I don't know what else to do. I feel like sending him an email right now letting him know how much this upsets me. Is that a bad idea? Or is there something else I should be saying?

Please go to the newsletters section of this website and read "When to Call It Quits" part one and two. The more I read what he's doing, the more certain I am that he's cheating and wants you to feel bad for seeing it. Please read and then post your thoughts about a possible solution. Study up on Plan A - but don't do Plan A for very long. You're already beaten down pretty badly but when you go to Plan B from doing that for a couple weeks at the most, you'll feel all of your strength begin to come back to you.

btw- silence is the best answer because he's already heard you on the boundaries. If he presses, respond "You already have my answer. Would you like a cookie?" and change the subject.

Gail, there is a fundamental problem in your marriage and that is that your husband does not care about your feelings. He refuses to protect you in your marriage and does not care if he hurts your feelings and puts your marriage at risk. He is the guy who plays chicken with your marriage. I went back and read your posts and he has been that way for years.

I agree 100% with Kayla. I would read the article about When to Call it Quits and start making plans to separate. You have a good start on that iniative with this UA time. I am so sorry, Gail. But when you consider where you are headed, a separation is probably the best thing for your marriage.

Gail,

I check into this web site from time to time, as it is a valuable reference source. I found myself mesmerized by your story, as it so resembles mine.

Your boundary regarding opposite-sex friendships is righteous. I applaud you for your strength and persistence in communicating this boundary to your husband and refusing to compromise. I have been reading with great interest to see what advice you receive from members of this board. I did not seek help, did not protect my boundary, and watched a slow-motion train wreck as my wife developed a romantic relationship with one of her male friends. In hindsight, I believe a vigorous defense of my boundary, even if it resulted in separation or worse, would've been preferable.

You are correct in your convictions. Even if your husband doesn't agree with you, he should curtail opposite-sex friendships out of a basic respect for his wife's feelings and wishes. It is quite alarming that he is so persistent in fighting you on this boundary. It hints at ulterior motive.

Ultimately, you must be happy in your marriage; you won't be happy by caving on your righteous attempt to make your marriage safe and secure for you.

I'll continue following this thread and hope you resolve this favorably.

Best wishes.

I am telling you that this is EACTLY what happened in my sitch before I found MB. Your WH and mine could be the same person.

I always said that I wished that I could have found this place sooner so the A wouldn't have been more entrenched and it was more possible to save it

Please listen to me. Your WH IS having an affair. It may not have crossed the line into a PA yet but it WILL.

I would suggest that you Plan A for 3-6 weeks at which time you would move into Plan B until he met your conditions for recovery. The first of those would be NC with OW. Next that he leave that job

In 2007 when I first found out about OW, I instinctively wanted my WH to quit but he promised me that he could keep their R professional. Apparently his profession became having sex with her cuz that's what happened

We went through 2 years of H3ll while I was doing whatever I could to try to save my marriage. I had harmful thoughts where I wished to get into an accident or even wanting to throw myself down the stairs just so he would wake up at the thought of losing me. I didn't do it but I sure thought about it A LOT.

There was one time that I did something that affected him. In March 2009, I left for a night. I told him that I would be home in the morning but I needed some time to decide what I wanted. I had no where to go and was going to sleep in my car(in winter in Canada I was gonna be cold). He called me and called me. He was so worried. I gave in and came home. He had been crying. He told me I was so important to him and he didn't want to lose me. That weekend he was so loving. On Monday, he went to work and came home a hard and angry man. He was mad at ME because OW didn't want to talk to him anymore. That lasted for 2 days and then they were spotted at lunch together. 2 months later we had a HUGE fight and he didn't care thgat he hurt me. He was closed off

I found MB that Oct 30 and have implemented the plans and have seen great results.

If I had found MB earlier I would have known what to do. Do yourself a favour, read my thread. See what I have done since I came here. See how much I have healed in the year and a half. You can have that too and you may even get to save your marriage.

Gail,

I too see similarities between your H and mine. The "friend" in my sitch was one of the mothers and next door neighbor. At one point my DH said to me...F you. She is nice and I AM going to be friends with her.

It was not until I decided that I would not live my life like that anymore with a third person in my M and asked DH to pack his bags and leave ...that he came around.

He had to get to that point of losing everything. He did change. It is possible. But it didn't happen until he saw that I was done.

Hi Hun,

Me an Pokerface have both been where you are, I was fortunate in the fact that my WH was never nasty except when I was ripping his head off about Ginge but it went on for 6 years in total, 5 years 'Just good friends' (like he11 they were) and eventually I got strong enough to actually do something.

Said I was leaving, didn't care.

That woke the silly wayturd up.

But.......I wouldn't wish those 5 years on anyone.

I hadn't found MB

I wish I had

I wish I had this little community to support me in doing what I felt was right but didn't have the support to do it.

My WH always loved me, never wanted to leave (in a way I often thought it would have been easier if he had) but was into massive cake eating.

Follow the advice ....... thats all

Blessings

I want to add that the main problem in Gail's marriage is not friends of the opposite sex. That is a another manifestation of his independent behavior. There have been other problems.

Noted, ML. Thank you for making that important point.

Be that as it may ML I still believe that the best course of action for Gail to follow is Plan A followed by Plan B. When Gail is in Plan B it may well be that she decides that her WH isn't worth the hurt anymore.

Agreed. gail, did you see that post I gave you from Dr Harley earlier in the thread? I think it applies perfectly to your situation. There are the normal WSs who once you get the affair to end, you work the program and can see a huge improvement in the M.

There are other WSs who don't follow POJA and who don't follow EPs because they don't care about their BSs feelings, period. This is my H and this is your H too.

If you want to give Plan A a go, I would say OK but please stop trying to reason with your WH. All you are doing is giving him an opportunity to gaslight you and it's going to drive you crazy. I would also advise you to start looking closely at Plan B.

I strongly believe that if I had done Plan A then Plan B many years ago, during the time of my FWH's rampant independent behavior, things might have turned out better. Instead I never believed I could manage a separation because of being overseas, financial reasons, etc and I did the best I could while my H had inappropriate friendships with women, groped a woman in his hotel room during business travel, cursed at me when I wanted accountability, did stupid things with our finances, and hurt me over and over again. FINALLY, after 30 years, he gets it. Why wait that long?

I agree 100%. I think she should follow the plan in When to Call it Quits.

You guys are right. I am not going to engage in this argument with him anymore. I didn't send off an email, and I won't bring it up with him and when he brings it up I am going to keep repeating myself and not get sidetracked. I am going to try to keep being nice and planning UA time for the two of us.

He's now punishing me though. We have relatives of mine who just moved back in town after living out of state for the past year. Our son and their two children are extremely close and are dying to see each other. I sent him a message asking if it would be okay if they came over for dinner tomorrow since they called and suggested it. His reponse was "no no no" - I asked what he wanted me to say, and told him if I blow them off they will try to reschedule so when might be a better time? His reply was "I don't care, do whatever you want"

Gail,

Stay on Plan A. But start getting ready for Plan B.

I'll reinforce what others have said.

You have several issues - your H has poor boundaries with women (maybe low self esteem), he does not respect your wishes and he is passive aggressive.

Just like Scotland...Back in 2009, I found suggestive text messages between my H and OW (coworker). I could not believe back then that it was anymore than my H said...she's infatuated with him and that it would end. I let it drop, focused on my family and marriage and was the best wife I could be. He threw a tantrum at the time. OW's mom watched our daughter and I refused to let her any longer. Until that time, H was very helpful with DD - made her breakfast, did laundry, etc. Once I told him I would not allow my daughter there any longer, he refused to do anything for my DD. He also went undercover with the affair - hiding his phone, being evasive, slowly cutting me out of his life. Then came the nitpicking, hostility, etc. I never connected the two.

I should have let all hell break loose at that point but I did not know about MB. I was so naieve.

But we had issues all along that I did not know were issues...namely, that my H was passive aggressive, had poor boundaries with women and he did not respect my wishes.
Examples of poor boundaries w/women:
- While I was dating H, he went to dinner with his ex-wife to exchange some belongings. He later told me she propositioned him for sex but he loved me too much. What the hell was I thinking when I married him!!
-H had invited his ex wife over to the house he and I just purchased right after we got married. I told him no or that it was OK if I were there when he invited her. He got upset and never invited her over. He stayed in touch with Ex over the years but never told me about it.
-H had many female friends - especially at work.
-I overheard him joke with females frequently about sex.

I have always been a very confident woman so these things never really bothered me but they should have.

Examples of not respecting my wishes...
-My H often made decisions and then let me know afterwards - he would say things like, "I want to go to XYZ place on Saturday. I already told them I'm coming. I'd like it if you came but if you can't..."

-From early on in our marriage, H started to work much longer hours. I asked him repeatedly to cut back, come home early sometimes etc and he always refused.

- I asked him frequently to "romance" me. Take me out to dinner, buy me flowers, etc. and he said "I do that already." and then basically stopped doing it.

He was very passive aggressive throughout...little things, really. He used to go grocery shopping but would never check to see what we had before going. I'd end up with 20 boxes of mac & cheese but no butter. So I said to him, check the refrigerator before you go. His response...separate the grocery shopping. He only bought things he needed to make for lunch at work.

We all hope your H can turn around before you have to go to Plan B but please get your ducks in a row now.

Fuzzy that does sound a lot like my H. The part about making plans and telling you after the fact is exactly what my H does to me. He'll tell me he made plans, or invited someone to something (like inviting his coworker several times) after the fact. I am fairly certain he does this so that I can't object. It is disrespectful.

I think earlier in the thread people really hit the nail on the head when they said my H needs admiration. I think a lot of these 'friendships' he has had with other women initially began with them showing him acceptance and attention. I think he eats this up. I don't know if he wants to cheat on me, but I do know that he shouldn't be getting these things from other women and especially not indulging himself in it by going for one on one outings with them, texting, facebooking, etc.

My husband also has some dysfunction when it comes to relationships I feel. I think this has a lot to do with his childhood and not feeling loved by his mother, and not having any relationship with her since he was eighteen. I am certain his need for acceptance from women is somehow tied to this in some way as well. Although, I think it's fair to say a lot of people trauma or no trauma enjoy attention from the opposite sex. But my husband takes it a step further, and that has been and still is my biggest issue.

He's had one male friend in all the years I've known him. I wasn't crazy about this friendship initially, which also fuels my H with his thinking I don't want him to have any friends. My issue with his male friend, who he rarely speaks to now, was that he was single, frequented strip clubs on a regular basis, and had no respect for our marriage. My H once told me he was going to take his friend out to bars and be his wingman to help him meet women. To his surprise I became upset about this idea. This friend of his also would come to my home to burn CD's full of porn from my H. To my husbands surprise I also put my foot down to this and thought they were both being extremely inappropriate and disrespectful.

My husband makes bad choices when it comes to friends. When I've tried to get him to come out with my friend and her H who are both nice people, he refuses and says he doesn't like them. It's caused strain on my friendship because when you turn people down over and over again on invitations they eventually stop inviting you. It's the same with these relatives of mine who want to come over for dinner tomorrow. My husband cannot stand either of them. In their case they have both done things a little irritating, but nothing unforgivable and they are family.

He can cut people off without batting an eye lash, he cut off his entire family because he didn't feel accepted. Maybe they didn't accept him fully, they vary greatly on religious beliefs but I've seen his mother send emails and try to reach him and he shuts her out and will go years without any correspondence. I met his step father for the very first time just six months ago, he was very nice. I have said to my H he should contact his step father and mother to see how they're doing on several occasions, but he won't.

Gail that was a post with a lot of words in it. What are you going to do now?

I really don't want to see you here in a coupld of years saying that your WH is leaving you. You need to do something about this NOW.

Gail,

Your H sounds more and more like mine (unfortunately).

Without going into every detail, my WSTBXH has major woman issues. I believe he is a misogynist. His Mom wasn't a real Mom (more like a friend and she was a cheater - cheated on WSTBXH's dad), he tends to pick women who are inferior to him (less attractive, uneducated, non-threatening) and he likes porn (the more humiliating to the woman, the better - I discovered this while uncovering the affair...what a lovely surprise).

He both craves the attention and admiration of women but is skeptical of it so it is always kept at a distance. That's why friendships (he gets pity and attention from women - always younger) and the porn (he gets to act out his fantasies of hurting women who have hurt him in the past).

He is also very unforgiving. He will hold a grudge for decades against someone for the slightest thing.

WSTBXH also has issues with his choice in male friends.

I tell you these details because for so long, I was foggy myself...Idid not face certain facts about my H. I always made excuses for him - he had a rough childhood, blah, blah blah. But 7 months away from him have given me clarity and I only share my experiences with you to show you a path your H may be on if not stopped.

My plan for the time being is to continue in plan A. I do realize (and I didn't before this thread, which in hindsight I am surprised I did not see it) that there are deficits in our marriage. I am not innocent here, I don't give my husband admiration. In fact, being honest, I can actually be quite harsh on him and rarely give him praise. I'm more likely to roll my eyes at him. For the past year I have not tried to meet his SF need or try to spend much time with him alone.

I can see why he might seek the admiration and attention from another woman. I haven't been the best spouse, especially not in the past year.

I'm not sure if my efforts will change much. Maybe things are too far gone, or maybe this issue is deeper than what has happened recently in our marriage. But I am willing to try to meet his needs and do the work to make our marriage better.

I hope that will be enough, but I have spent a lot of time planning for going into plan B.

So far, and I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I haven't found it - he has kept his promise to not meet with her, text her, or call her.

I have explained to him that if he does meet up with her or initiate contact outside of work that he will be choosing her and he will be telling me loud and clear that I am not as important to him. He knows that things are on the brink of me asking him to leave. It has happened before, but last time I took him back after only a few days.

I am thinking of maybe setting up some counseling myself. I don't think I have an issue, and I don't buy his excuse that this is all me. But I do feel like I don't have many people in my life I can confide in (which is a large part of why I am here, because it's cathartic to vent sometimes. But also I agree with the MB philosophies) and possibly deal with any depression or issues that may arise if I do go into plan B.

I have done the same for so many years. I have wanted to help him, and my heart has broke for him because of his history with his family. I have made excuses for his behavior.
He had me convinced for years that they were the most horrible people imaginable and after many, many emails to his mother (to let her know she had grandchildren for one) and meeting his step father I can't see it. Now, I am not saying they didn't have issues or that his parents have never done anything wrong. I know my H and I don't think he cut them off because of nothing. But I think he blew the situation out of proportion and it still surprises me how he could cut off his entire family. My own family has had many issues, ups and downs, but I can't imagine just cutting them all off.

I simply don't see this as a sitch where you won't need Plan B, and sooner rather than later.

Even if you haven't found an A, his IB is enough to warrant Plan B. Plan A him to show him what he would be missing, and then Plan B.

Looking into how his mother treated him, how he isn't able to pick the correct friends, etc, is not going to help your sitch now.

Oh BTW, you not meeting his EN for Admiration gives him NO RIGHT to go outside of your marriage to find it.

I saw on an archived thread about a woman who was contacted by the OW after she had gone to Plan D,

The OW and WH's relationships was in trouble after a certain amount of time in the 'real world'

OW contacted BS to tell her the final straw and why she dumped WH was 'finding' the plan B letter that the WH had lovingly kept the whole time!

And think about it, most of these waywards are admiration hungry - they arent going to throw that letter away.

I just wanted to give an update. The past few days have went much better.

My husband and I were getting in these spats and he'd bring it up in the morning before going to work, but then by the time he'd get home from work he'd be in a good mood and act like nothing had happened. This perplexed me. It dawned on me that maybe he is getting stressed out and thinking about this in the morning because he has to go into work and she is there and he has to avoid her. I also realized he was never going to tell her that his wife was the one putting her foot down. He told me to do so would be incredibly awkward and imply there was something inappropriate.

When he came home a few nights ago I told him that I understand this might be awkward and uncomfortable for him. That I realize he may not want the entire office gossiping that his wife thought he was going too far with this coworker and how that might look. I think he probably deserves it, and got himself into this mess but at this point I just want to get back on track here and stop fighting. I told him to tell OW (or any woman that wants go to lunch) that he and I agreed no lunches because it was getting too expensive and to bring in a lunch everyday. He perked up when I said this, because it is true that I was bringing up his lunch costs before I ever knew about OW and have suggested he bring in his own many times. I know he should probably be telling this woman, and any others that lunch is off the table. But I guess so long as he doesn't go I don't care what he tells them to try and save face. I would obviously prefer he be upfront and say he values his wife more than his ego or some woman's feeling in the office.

I told him not to get too stressed out if she tries to talk to him at work either. He'd been trying to avoid her completely for the past week or so. I said I will not get upset if she asks about his weekend. I told him small talk with women in the office was never what was upsetting me. It's the lunches, the texting, the facebooking - taking things outside of the office. I said if he can not do this (found out he's taken out two other female coworkers to lunch beside her) then I will be happy.

Since then we've been getting along pretty well. He has stopped making passive aggressive comments and he's been being more affectionate.

We went out for Thai food for lunch yesterday and we had a lot of fun together.

Tonight we're going out to a wine bar and a walk after work (got a babysitter lined up for every weekend!) and on Sunday I am going to try to arrange for us to go canoeing.

He called me today because he forgot his lunch (he has been bringing his own in) at home and was going to go grab a wrap from a nearby deli. He stayed on the phone with me the entire time. I thought he was trying to be ridiculous or make me feel like a prison warden and told him he didn't have to keep me on the phone. He replied he wanted to talk to me anyway, and that when I saw the charge he wanted me to not have to worry. He actually said it sincerely and wasn't being passive aggressive.

The good parts you mentioned in your update are good, as far as Plan A moments go. They don't mean what you hope they mean for the long run. Your description is still full of .

Don't let a few better moments sidetrack you from your plan. This A is still going on, and you still urgently need to get yourself out of the chaos.

Till you have some healing time, you won't even be in a position to judge whether you should be with WH or not.

Another update:

First I want to thank some of you who really pushed me to see how important spending quality time out of the house with my husband is. I always thought it wasn't doable, and didn't think we could afford to spend the money on a babysitter. Unless my mother was available to watch our kids, we didn't go out. We were spending less than a few hours of quality time together a week at best for years.

We've made it work into our budget, and have been spending more time together than we have in years. When we're not on our dates, we've been spending time together in the house. We now play games together, garden together, and just sit and talk instead of zoning out in front of the television at night.

The issue of his coworker still hasn't come up. I continue to monitor his cell phone history online via our cell phone provider. He has not called, or been called by her in about a month now. There have been no texts, facebooking, lunches and so forth. My husband has continued bringing in his own lunch and eats at his desk or we go to lunch together. Often he calls me now on his lunch break and we talk over the phone.

I'm not saying the issue won't come back up, or that everything is perfect now. But I can feel in just a months time of meeting his EN's for SF and RC and spending that quality time together it feels like we're back to when we were dating. I can't remember a time since when we've gotten along so well in years.

I think he was seeking attention from the OW because our marriage was severely lacking in various areas. I know now I wasn't meeting his EN's and he wasn't meeting mine either. We couldn't when we had two children around us all of the time and never spent any time together or just talked. I think this EA was caught early on and I am hopeful that working on our marriage and fulfilling each others needs will be enough to thwart another. As well as my husbands agreement to have better boundaries.

I really appreciate all of the advice, and the MB principals. I don't feel like we'd be in this place we're currently in had I not come here.

Great. Continue to be the best wife you can be for him to build up your account in his love bank.
He might have a prepaid secret cell to communicate with OW though. Keep this in mind.

Another update:

Last week my H finally caved and admitted to his coworker why he wasn't going to lunches with her anymore. He told her it had become an issue in our marriage. Prior to last week he had just been avoiding her, but I guess she was pretty insistent he come to lunch with her and her girlfriend last week.

She then tried to give him relationship advice, and told him that he is not giving me enough affection. She also mentioned how she divorced her last husband because she likes being "independent" and can't live having someone telling her what to do.

I don't think my husband gave me all of the details, I think he also watered down what he did share with me. My husband said he became irritated with her because she wouldn't just accept he couldn't go and she was being pushy, he also said he didn't care to hear relationship advice from a twice divorced 29-year-old who believes she's an expert because she once took a relationship course at college. He said that we've managed to make our marriage work for almost a decade now, and he considers himself happy and in love with me and that he doesn't need advice from her.

I told him I was surprised to hear he'd be upset by her response (basically that I am insecure and dominating) and rather would think he'd feel validated since he thinks the same thing. He said that is not the case, that he just didn't like feeling like he was the bad guy - but that he gets now that this is something I believe in and is a separate issue. Before he said he felt like I was questioning his commitment and was accusing him of trying to have an affair, so he felt defensive. He also thinks that maybe she was after more than friendship based on how she responded.

Part of me wondered if he was blowing smoke up my you know what. Placating me. But my husband is not a dumb man, and he knows by him telling me she said I was insecure and controlling cuts off any chance we go and hang out together. He also wouldn't have said I may have been right about her motives, because he knows now he cannot be her friend under any circumstances now.

So I believe his response was real and I feel relieved that he told her what was up, didn't buy into her bashing of me, and in the end agrees with me that things may have not been as innocent as he thought.

Why would your husband ever be talking to ANY woman about the status of your marriage?

AM

Trust - but only what you can verify.

imo, most men would leave the speech at home and leave it at 'thanks but no thanks' when a woman was 'persistent'

I would keep the snooping at bloodhound level. Play dumb though - he will mess up faster

gaillajn,

I agree that you probably don't have the full story about their interactions at work.

You KNOW based on MB concepts that this OW is now always going to be a threat to your M. And your H has admitted to still engaging in intimate conversation with her...but skillfully framed it in a way to make you feel "safe" about it...when there is nothing safe about it at all.

If you had caught this budding relationship "very early" and he GOT it, he would be practicing ExtraOrdinary Precautions and not having any type of conversation with her other than professional.

I am going to urge you to get your H out of there as soon as possible.

Gail, about 6 weeks ago your H said he would look for another job. What's the story on his job search? (Although I suspect I already know the answer.)

Have you considered going to Plan B yet? Your H's actions are screaming for some sort of resolution - by YOU. He's obviously not going to stop his behaviors, regardless of whether they bother you or not.

He is obviously in contact with the OW. They have taken their EA up a notch by putting the point out there about you being concerned about their relationship. This will heighten the tension between them and may push them even closer together if they aren't already. Look at her response - to give him relationship advice??

This is not good, Gail.

I should clarify that I wanted him to tell her the reason behind him not going to hang out with her anymore. He did not want to give her the reason. I don't think his intention was to have a conversation with her regarding our marriage, but rather to tell her his marriage and putting me first is the reason he can no longer meet with her for lunch. Of course this opened the door for her to comment on our marriage.

I guess maybe it could push them closer together. However, I felt if he didn't tell her why it would only be a matter of time before he caved to one of her invites. Just saying no thanks to lunch over and over and over again is going to provoke her to ask him what is up eventually or he is going to feel guilt over it and maybe think "well I haven't gone in months, just once won't hurt" especially if there were other people present. I feel both of them knowing that by hanging out and spending time together they are violating our agreement and putting our marriage in jeopardy draws a clear line in the sand and makes it more difficult for either of them to chalk up their lunches as friendly and harmless. Even if neither has any ill intentions, there is zero attraction between them and it really is strictly platonic - it will create issues in our marriage.

The other thing is I have heard repeatedly how "gossipy" his office is, and it is mostly women who work there. If not this woman, I am sure there will be another down the road. I'd rather his coworker go and tell everyone he has a crazy wife who won't allow him to go to lunches with women and women to get the hint. If everyone in the office knows about it, it makes it more awkward and less friendly looking should he decide to go to hang out with one of his female coworkers again.

MaritalBliss - I did not push the other job issue. He is relocating to a new office in January.

I feel like I've been punched in the stomach. For months things have been going well, so well I started forgetting to check his cell phone and track things. I was uploading some photos he took on his phone from a party and glanced at his text messages, sure enough there were quite a few. The two of them joking back and forth, and several messages saying saying "coffee?" -- I went into our bank account and in the past week there have been four purchases to a coffee shop right near his office. I don't know if they're going together to get this coffee, I imagine so since it's two blocks from the office. I don't know if it even matters because the thought of him buying coffee for her really makes my blood boil.

I found this two nights ago. I haven't approached him about it yet because I'm deciding do I wait until I have something more concrete or do I just throw his [censored] out.

I know he'll say they didn't go together, that he just picked one up for her. He'll probably lie and say she paid him back too or that she gave him money and he just bought himself a pastry or something (the charges are only around $5-6 right about what two coffees would cost, but could be coffee and a pastry)

He always has a reason and excuse.

Gaillajn,

Things have NOT been going well for months. Maybe, you thought so, but there were all kinds of red flags in your previous few posts. This affair never ended, just went underground until they got a little sloppy again.

Did you ever read how to survive an affair on this site? MB is a proven plan that works, if implemented. The successful people on here have applied the plan without deviation. You are either unfamilar with MB principles or have decided to pick and choose.

AM

Time to restart tracking & checking.

Put a GPS on his vehicle and a VAR in his vehicle.

Park across the street from the coffee shop and .... wait/watch.
You need to know for sure.

I thought I was following it. I initially tried a plan A approach and realized we weren't meeting a lot of each others emotional needs, specifically recreational companionship. I arranged for babysitters, dates, started meeting him for lunch once a week, etc. I never pushed things to a plan B because as far as I knew for the past couple of months they weren't talking and he's leaving his location coming up in a couple of months.

I feel like this is what I need to do. I need something concrete that he can't lie or wiggle out of to move to a plan B. The hard part will be not saying anything in the mean time because I feel so angry right now.

Anger is a quick & easy response to fear. Anger feels good for a second, because it replaces the fear. But it rarely pays long lasting dividend, because the fear is still there, waiting.
Self control is a skill that you can use the rest of your life.
Self control is empowering, and THAT pays long term dividends when dealing with our fears.

Smile.
Hum.
Play music.

gaillajin. You did very well in keeping your cool. I know how hard that is after finding continued contact. They are getting comfortable and sloppy which means you have a good chance of getting some concrete proof.

You will always be in a better position having concrete proof. It makes it harder to paint you as the jealous insecure wife.

Start getting your Plan B ducks in a row. Can you now see the importance of WH leaving that employment to break the addiction?

Many of us were concerned about you, as I recall, because you were buying into some of the stuff your WH was babbling about not liking the OW and not being friendly w/her anymore etc. I think he somewhat had convinced you that it was not an EA or at least that you didn't need to worry about his interactions with OW anymore...

What is the story about him leaving his job? When is that happening and do you have third party verification? I am concerned that your H will not really leave when the time comes...because we know waywards lie lie and then lie some more...specially regarding anything to do with the OW.

He is stuck in the addiction part of it. Those feel good chemicals are still topping his brain. This time get the goods, and then it will have to be a full on nuclear EXPOSURE to work. Can you find her on facebook and copy her friends now? Get ready for EXPOSURE, a couple week Plan A, and the DARK Plan B.

I thought I was following it. I initially tried a plan A approach and realized we weren't meeting a lot of each others emotional needs, specifically recreational companionship. I arranged for babysitters, dates, started meeting him for lunch once a week, etc. I never pushed things to a plan B because as far as I knew for the past couple of months they weren't talking and he's leaving his location coming up in a couple of months.

Just remember...this is like putting an alcoholic in a bar and then being angry that they took a drink. He will not be able to control himself around the OW and he will continue to lie to you so long as there is any contact. Keep your cool and get everything lined up. You can do this!

gail, you already have all you need in order to proceed to Plan B. You don't need to prove to him that he has betrayed your marriage. He already knows that.

We cautioned you on what would inevitably happen if they continued to work together. It's not something I like to be right about.

It doesn't matter what he's doing in a few months. The fact is that they are still working together.

I agree, and yes I see now that this will keep going and going if he has contact with her. Many months ago we found out that he was likely going to be relocated to a different location and last month we found out for certain that it is happening in early 2012. They've already opened the new office, and are in the process of transferring things. So that solves the issue of the two of them working at the same location - but for a couple more months there will be contact.

I've been looking at cell phone trackers today and am trying to decide which one to go with. I know I can't say anything yet because I have nothing that shows they're going together. I do have proof they're communicating via text, but that is all.

Things have really ramped up the past couple of weeks. I had a look at our cell phone records this morning and see they're calling each other again in addition to the texting on a daily basis and the coffee meetups. I find that their text messages to each other are vague and I think that is intentional. There was one from two weeks ago that said something like "I'm almost finished" right around lunch time which I think was probably one waiting on the other to go out. I noticed there have been a couple of ATM transactions near his work in the past month as well which I think was probably to cover up lunches. Both of them are aware they're not supposed to be going anywhere together alone, so I think she's in on it and being vague as well. There have been three texts in the past week regarding coffee but never a specific mention of meeting up to go. I think they spend most of their time communicating on office lines, and through their office email and of course in person. I wish there was a way to see records of those conversations.

I just don't see how I can expose this to his HR Dept or our family friends and her family friends with a text that says "coffee?"

I can't even convince my mother and best friend that he is emotionally cheating on me. I don't see how I would convince a bunch of strangers.

When will you be installing the VAR/GPS? My guess is you will get proof pretty quickly.

Susie, my husband takes public transportation to work so I won't find much using a VAR. Even the GPS likely won't unveil much because he works downtown and everything is within a few blocks of his office (coffee shops, restaurants, etc) and it doesn't prove he was with anyone. I just logged into our bank account and see he went to a deli about an hour ago but I don't know if it was alone or with her.

Probably the most useful feature of the cell phone tracker would be that I would see all text messages should he decide to delete any. But I think they're past using texts for more than vague brief messages, so I'm not even sure how much that'll help.

Gail, I'm not suggesting you expose this to HR. I'm suggesting you go to Plan B. You have enough proof to explain to your H that he has continued to cruelly deceive you and that you will no longer tolerate such abuse.

Or are you planning on gritting your teeth and allowing the EA to continue unhampered by your interference? You've already seen what happens when you confront WH about it. They went underground. They'll dig back in after you confront him and will try to cover their tracks better. THAT'S what will happen if you confront him with evidence and expect him to do something to protect your M. He's already shown you that his M is not his priority.

What is it YOU want to do? What is your goal? Your goal a few months ago was to continue allowing them to work together, hope your WH was telling the truth about ending the friendship, and hanging in there until he got to his new job in January.

That didn't happen. They went underground.

What is your goal NOW?

I don't know, I fell so confused and hurt right now and part of me still worries that maybe I am that insecure wife that everyone outside of this forum seems to think I am.

I feel if I throw him out with some lunches and texts and possibly coffee people will think I am nuts. I picture him getting all of the sympathy and validation, especially from his coworker who has already tried to paint me as an insecure woman. I worry that it may also push the two of them closer and into a PA.

What people are thinking and doing outside of your marriage is immaterial. The two people who count are you and your WH. The point isn't that it's 'just' lunch and texts. The point is that you explained to your WH that you were uncomfortable with his relationship with OW and he has completely disrespected your wishes. It's not a matter of degree.

No, continued contact will do that. If it hasn't already.

My marriage is ending and my situation is almost identical to your situation. The longer the two of them do this the more likely PA. He knows he is doing something wrong, so kill the affair when you can. Your marriage can survive his anger. It cannot survive his current behavior.

You are not insecure and it is okay to be jealous. Your husband is meeting her EN's and she is meeting his EN's. You have every right to feel threatened by this. Your WH is doing the contrast effect at the moment. He is getting to a place he is comparing you and her. He is likely seeing her in a better light because he doesn't see her fart, burp, raise kids, without coffee, or in any light that isn't positive. He knows your warts and all, and that is what he is comparing. It isn't fair, and it is part of the fantasy. He is fantasizing this relationship without any form of reality.

Kill the Affair and kill his fantasy. Make yourself into the wife he married. Do it now before it goes physical (likely may have!!)

Why not try it and see what pops up? I think they are getting comfortable and sloppy. The vague coffee texts may have been a test to see if you noticed.

Give it a shot while getting your Plan B ready.

Alright I found a tracker that will work with his phone model. It's not terribly expensive either. I'm going to try and install it tonight on his phone if I can get it without him noticing. Hopefully he'll go to bed early like he usually does.

Question: Should I broach him about the coffee thing anyway? That way I can see if it continues and he tries to hide it from me once I have the tracker installed? Or should I say nothing and just watch. Because they see each other so much at work and have land lines I doubt I'm going to get anything terribly juicy from his text messages but maybe I can see with the tracker he's deleting them in the future and it'll show me how far he's willing to go to lie to me?

I have an hour before he's home from work. I know I can resist saying anything, but I don't think I can hide that I'm upset. I've never been good with concealing my emotions and I'm upset to the point I have felt like throwing up on and off today and have other stomach issues. He usually picks up something is off, even when I try my best to hide it.

Do I lie to him if he does notice something seems off and pretend it's something to do with work, or come out with it?

NO. Don't alert him. If you're going to snoop his texts you don't want to give him a head's up that you're wondering anything. You'll tip your hand and he'll stop using it. It appears that he is becoming sloppy, thinking you're no longer suspicious. Don't give him a reason to believe otherwise.

Agree with marital. Please resist the temptation to think you can reason with him about his communications with OW. He isn't going to be straight with you...

Claim terrible PMS for being upset and not feeling well.

It's done. I feel sick with worry he's going to find it on his phone. I told him last night my stomach hurt and I ended up staying in bed most of the night to avoid any conversation.

We'll see what happens.

Gail - you'll begin truly recovering when you don't care as much about what other people think of you.

here's how you will know you're at that point:

Prep for Plan B - His suitcases are packed and delivered to his office. Plan B letter enclosed. Locksmith has already changed the locks.

Your intermediary calls: She knows you're in contact. She knows you're having secret little trysts - even if it's just for lunch or even coffee.

Him: How does know? She doesn't have any proof. This is ridiculous!

Intermediary: From here on out, you get to prove that you're not. As long as you're working there, you don't get to live with her. I'll be handling any necessary communication between the two of you. Here is my email address and my cell phone #.

See? no defensiveness. You don't handle the confrontation. The letter and your intermediary handle it.

You get on with your life. No more false recovery.

There are very specific behaviors a wayward ready for recovery will do. He's nowhere near those behaviors. Have your intermediary get trained by Mel. If you don't have an intermediary, get one today. Don't worry about GPS or anything else. You already know. You don't have to prove. Expose that he's still cheating. He can spin it however he likes. You don't care what other people think. Repeat until you believe it!

Do you all have a car that he uses at all? If you do, I would still install the VAR and GPS. You don't only have to worry about him calling, texting or visiting her during work hours.

Good for you, gail! Let us know what you find. Steel yourself so you don't blow up if you find something incriminating. You don't want him to know anything until you are ready to act.

Well it will be a week tomorrow since I've been monitoring and no messages have been sent or received, as well as no phone calls. Starting to think maybe I am just crazy.

I distrust this greatly. Have you checked for an affair phone?

I do too. There is clearly something very wrong with a man putting his marriage at such risk for coffee....

You know you are right. Start trusting your instincts.

Have you tried a keylogger on your home computer? GPS on his phone? If you are right about them conducting things entirely at work, maybe cut to the chase and get a PI?

Have you tried a VAR in the home? Maybe take yourself out for the day and see if he calls her from home?

This is a good idea. Hide it near the land line. ALSO - consider hiding one in the bedroom, or wherever he dresses in the morning. You may pick something up if he's the type to talk to himself when no one is around. Can you arrange to be out of the house before he has to leave for work for a few mornings?

Ditto.

*chuckle*

Gail, I remember saying the same thing on my thread about why my FWW's phone was so void of contact with her co-worker OM. Then mb asked if I had looked for an affair phone and, well, I found one.

Look for a phone.

Have you checked his credit report lately? If he does have a second phone, I was just wondering how he would pay for it.

Could he have a work cell phone? You might call his main office when you know he's not there and ask to speak to him. When told he's not there, ask for his work cell number because you've got to ask him something real quick about the kids.

If told he doesn't have one, then it's "Oh, sorry, I could have sworn he had gotten a work phone!" Playing the helpless female may be required, unfortunately.

And I wasn't happy when you confirmed it. But it worked out for you, and it can for Gail.

Gail, honey, no news is not necessarily good news. Get snooping.

Yep.

Like others have posted, just changing the names in Gail's story would fit just about all of us.

I've searched his car on numerous occasions (for receipts or any type of clue) and have come up with nothing. I've also gone through bank and credit card statements to look for odd purchases, and besides the lunches and coffees there has been nothing. I take care of our finances, my husband doesn't even have the login for his personal credit card. I log in and make the payments for him.

When I was complaining about his frequent coffee visits and that he was spending $100 a month on starbucks he suggested an allowance and to just pull it out in cash. I told him that was ludicrous and that he didn't need an "allowance" but rather to just cut back. I bought a Keurig this week so he has no excuse to go out for coffee all the time (because he's in a hurry he always says). It really is about the money as well as the fact I suspect they grab each other coffee or go together. I thought his asking for cash was odd though. He knows I go through our finances with a fine tooth comb. Part of job is auditing and reconciling accounts for the company I work for, so it comes as second nature to me.

He ran to go and grab food for us and I just had a look at his work email. He left it up when he went out. Absolutely no emails between the two of them that aren't work related.

Either he's realllllllly good, or I'm nuts.

You're both missing the big point, gail. I don't mean to shout, but: YOU DON'T LIKE THIS 'FRIENDSHIP'. That alone means he NEEDS TO END IT.

She's probably just buying for him and they're silent because they know you're watching.

We, too, have a Keurig machine. I'm hosed if they ever determine that caffeine is bad for you!

Agreed, and I have told him this when he was arguing with me whether or not the friendship was appropriate. I told him bottom line it makes me uncomfortable and it needs to end.

I would say offering to bring her in a coffee is something that a friend would do. He says it's something coworkers do for each other all of the time. In any case, I did tell him that I'm not comfortable with him doing this either. He thought because they weren't going out for coffee everything was fine (I know he's playing dumb here) and found another loop hole. I also think because months have gone by without this being a issue for us that he eased back into more friendly since I wasn't over his shoulder watching.

He has said he won't be picking up any coffee for her in the future. So far, it doesn't look like he has.

Also, still nothing on the mobile device tracker other than one work related text.

I don't think so because for a while now he's been going to coffee shops every day of the week. I can tell from the bank charges so he's definitely buying his own coffee. Well, was buying his own. This past week he's been making it at home and bringing it with him.

looking for loopholes =

He's OK with doing things that make you unhappy.

What say you?

gaillajn,
Any updates? Is there another thread?

Hey everyone, sorry to bump this thread after so many months. I have another dilemma, and I think this one is bigger than before..

First an update: OW left her job back in December for another job. She's contacted my husband only once since she left (I still kept the spyware on his phone) and apologized for being so open with him and said she learned her lesson, wished him good luck (he was promoted) and they've never spoke again. Ironically, my husbands boss knows about the situation, and disliked the OW. She was impressed my husband kept his distance and handled things professionally.

We've had discussions about what happened a few times, my husband says he was out of line and being stupid. He's found out a lot more about OW since his promotion and she was very disliked by her peers. He is pretty certain now she was coming on to him, and says he's an "idiot" for not noticing. He thought she was just being nice and they got along, or so he says.

Anyway, this is not my issue now, or maybe it stems from this.. I don't know.

I am fairly certain I have fallen out of love with my husband. He irritates me, badly. I am not all that attracted to him anymore either. I am pretty sure it's the years of BS he's put me through, including this last stint.

Honestly, I think the straw that broke the camels back has been that he sits around the house, doesn't want to do anything and frankly is boring. When he was with this OW he was bringing me flowers, animated, wanted more to do things. Now he is just a couch potato, and I prefer to do things without him.

I fantasize about packing up and leaving with the kids. I don't know where I'd go though. I fantasize about handing him divorce papers and screaming "SEE WHAT YOU PUSHED ME TO" -- but he wouldn't think it was his fault.

I've tried a hundred ways lately to tell him I am bored. Bored to the core of my being. He does nothing. He's not romantic, I'm pretty sure he's back to porn all the time although he says it's my fault because I don't initiate enough even though I did twice last week. I waited for him to reciprocate and nothing, well.. once he did and got mad at me that I wasn't touching him back and stopped and got angry.

He plays video games, watches TV and that's all he does. I've told him I can't live like this and we need to go on dates, do exciting things together. I had a cousin die back in February, and another cousin with brain cancer at the moment and a friend from HS who has terminal stomach cancer. Life is SHORT.. I keep telling him this.

He's just not getting it. He changes nothing.

Sorry to see you're not happy.

Can you tell us what you're exactly saying to him?

Have you read this? When To Call it Quits Part 1

I have told him that I can't live the way we've been living anymore, staying home all of the time, not going on dates, not taking the kids out on weekends.

He will tell me to plan something.. and when I suggest things to do he usually has a pained look on his face. He is often irritable when we do go and do things.

I have left out something big in this equation, because it is embarrassing and I am afraid of any legal implications. I just don't care anymore. My husband prefers to stay home and get stoned over everything else.

I did tell him about three weeks ago when I found out he was on his way to pick it up that I'd had it, and that I couldn't deal with it anymore. I told him it has made him lazy, boring, unmotivated and not to mention it's illegal and I worry about that too.

He told me he wasn't going to do it anymore, but he has.

He disgusts me much of the time. When I was younger I actually used to party and used drugs, many worse than pot. But this was a very long time ago, before I had kids, when I was in HS and college. When I met my husband he was in the Navy and had never tried much of anything, he was actually against the idea of smoking pot or doing any drugs other than drinking alcohol. He has changed so much in the time I've known him I hardly recognize him anymore.

I have gone over the logistics of leaving him many times. I'm still not sure how to make it work without it being painful for everyone. I imagine at some point my disgust for him will grow to the point I won't care.

He is still wayward ... I suggest separating and getting into Plan B as soon as possible.

Make sure you Plan B letter states exactly how you want to save the marriage and what EP's will need to be in place.

Your health is suffering and you love is gone because he never lifted a finger to heal you.

Plus he needs to recover from drug addiction first before any marriage can be saved.

What do you mean by this? The wayward part that is..

Listen to this radio clip.
Radio clip on smoking marijuana

Tell me what you think.

No speakers and I am at work. I'll have a listen when I get home this afternoon.

I don't know how much is kept in the house, but wonder if it may jeopardize your custody as well if something went down with this.

Maybe it wouldn't if it isn't yours, but it may be worth looking into. You don't want to go down for something that is his.

If he's high most of the time, then that explains his lack of motivation to do much. It sounds like the bottom was never really brought up to him, and most are reluctant to change unless they have a damn good reason to do so. I would Plan B this.

gal,

You should go back and re-read through the first few pages of this thread.

It was discussed that the A isn't your biggest problem... Mel and I both posted to you regarding the fact that the real issue is that your H is a freeloader and refuses to POJA. Someone like this is just going to make you miserable in M.

In fact, didn't Dr Harley tell you to Plan B years ago when you called into the radio show and there wasn't even an A going on at that time?

Addict ... wayward ... literally the same behavior just a different drug. A wayward is an addict ... instead of craving attention from a whore he is craving it from pot.

Separate and go into Plan B ... he must get clean and sober above all else.