Gail, there is a fundamental problem in your marriage and that is that your husband does not care about your feelings. He refuses to protect you in your marriage and does not care if he hurts your feelings and puts your marriage at risk. He is the guy who plays chicken with your marriage. I went back and read your posts and he has been that way for years.

I agree 100% with Kayla. I would read the article about When to Call it Quits and start making plans to separate. You have a good start on that iniative with this UA time. I am so sorry, Gail. But when you consider where you are headed, a separation is probably the best thing for your marriage.

Gail,

I check into this web site from time to time, as it is a valuable reference source. I found myself mesmerized by your story, as it so resembles mine.

Your boundary regarding opposite-sex friendships is righteous. I applaud you for your strength and persistence in communicating this boundary to your husband and refusing to compromise. I have been reading with great interest to see what advice you receive from members of this board. I did not seek help, did not protect my boundary, and watched a slow-motion train wreck as my wife developed a romantic relationship with one of her male friends. In hindsight, I believe a vigorous defense of my boundary, even if it resulted in separation or worse, would've been preferable.

You are correct in your convictions. Even if your husband doesn't agree with you, he should curtail opposite-sex friendships out of a basic respect for his wife's feelings and wishes. It is quite alarming that he is so persistent in fighting you on this boundary. It hints at ulterior motive.

Ultimately, you must be happy in your marriage; you won't be happy by caving on your righteous attempt to make your marriage safe and secure for you.

I'll continue following this thread and hope you resolve this favorably.

Best wishes.

I am telling you that this is EACTLY what happened in my sitch before I found MB. Your WH and mine could be the same person.

I always said that I wished that I could have found this place sooner so the A wouldn't have been more entrenched and it was more possible to save it

Please listen to me. Your WH IS having an affair. It may not have crossed the line into a PA yet but it WILL.

I would suggest that you Plan A for 3-6 weeks at which time you would move into Plan B until he met your conditions for recovery. The first of those would be NC with OW. Next that he leave that job

In 2007 when I first found out about OW, I instinctively wanted my WH to quit but he promised me that he could keep their R professional. Apparently his profession became having sex with her cuz that's what happened

We went through 2 years of H3ll while I was doing whatever I could to try to save my marriage. I had harmful thoughts where I wished to get into an accident or even wanting to throw myself down the stairs just so he would wake up at the thought of losing me. I didn't do it but I sure thought about it A LOT.

There was one time that I did something that affected him. In March 2009, I left for a night. I told him that I would be home in the morning but I needed some time to decide what I wanted. I had no where to go and was going to sleep in my car(in winter in Canada I was gonna be cold). He called me and called me. He was so worried. I gave in and came home. He had been crying. He told me I was so important to him and he didn't want to lose me. That weekend he was so loving. On Monday, he went to work and came home a hard and angry man. He was mad at ME because OW didn't want to talk to him anymore. That lasted for 2 days and then they were spotted at lunch together. 2 months later we had a HUGE fight and he didn't care thgat he hurt me. He was closed off

I found MB that Oct 30 and have implemented the plans and have seen great results.

If I had found MB earlier I would have known what to do. Do yourself a favour, read my thread. See what I have done since I came here. See how much I have healed in the year and a half. You can have that too and you may even get to save your marriage.

Gail,

I too see similarities between your H and mine. The "friend" in my sitch was one of the mothers and next door neighbor. At one point my DH said to me...F you. She is nice and I AM going to be friends with her.

It was not until I decided that I would not live my life like that anymore with a third person in my M and asked DH to pack his bags and leave ...that he came around.

He had to get to that point of losing everything. He did change. It is possible. But it didn't happen until he saw that I was done.

Hi Hun,

Me an Pokerface have both been where you are, I was fortunate in the fact that my WH was never nasty except when I was ripping his head off about Ginge but it went on for 6 years in total, 5 years 'Just good friends' (like he11 they were) and eventually I got strong enough to actually do something.

Said I was leaving, didn't care.

That woke the silly wayturd up.

But.......I wouldn't wish those 5 years on anyone.

I hadn't found MB

I wish I had

I wish I had this little community to support me in doing what I felt was right but didn't have the support to do it.

My WH always loved me, never wanted to leave (in a way I often thought it would have been easier if he had) but was into massive cake eating.

Follow the advice ....... thats all

Blessings

I want to add that the main problem in Gail's marriage is not friends of the opposite sex. That is a another manifestation of his independent behavior. There have been other problems.

Noted, ML. Thank you for making that important point.

Be that as it may ML I still believe that the best course of action for Gail to follow is Plan A followed by Plan B. When Gail is in Plan B it may well be that she decides that her WH isn't worth the hurt anymore.

Agreed. gail, did you see that post I gave you from Dr Harley earlier in the thread? I think it applies perfectly to your situation. There are the normal WSs who once you get the affair to end, you work the program and can see a huge improvement in the M.

There are other WSs who don't follow POJA and who don't follow EPs because they don't care about their BSs feelings, period. This is my H and this is your H too.

If you want to give Plan A a go, I would say OK but please stop trying to reason with your WH. All you are doing is giving him an opportunity to gaslight you and it's going to drive you crazy. I would also advise you to start looking closely at Plan B.

I strongly believe that if I had done Plan A then Plan B many years ago, during the time of my FWH's rampant independent behavior, things might have turned out better. Instead I never believed I could manage a separation because of being overseas, financial reasons, etc and I did the best I could while my H had inappropriate friendships with women, groped a woman in his hotel room during business travel, cursed at me when I wanted accountability, did stupid things with our finances, and hurt me over and over again. FINALLY, after 30 years, he gets it. Why wait that long?

I agree 100%. I think she should follow the plan in When to Call it Quits.

You guys are right. I am not going to engage in this argument with him anymore. I didn't send off an email, and I won't bring it up with him and when he brings it up I am going to keep repeating myself and not get sidetracked. I am going to try to keep being nice and planning UA time for the two of us.

He's now punishing me though. We have relatives of mine who just moved back in town after living out of state for the past year. Our son and their two children are extremely close and are dying to see each other. I sent him a message asking if it would be okay if they came over for dinner tomorrow since they called and suggested it. His reponse was "no no no" - I asked what he wanted me to say, and told him if I blow them off they will try to reschedule so when might be a better time? His reply was "I don't care, do whatever you want"

Gail,

Stay on Plan A. But start getting ready for Plan B.

I'll reinforce what others have said.

You have several issues - your H has poor boundaries with women (maybe low self esteem), he does not respect your wishes and he is passive aggressive.

Just like Scotland...Back in 2009, I found suggestive text messages between my H and OW (coworker). I could not believe back then that it was anymore than my H said...she's infatuated with him and that it would end. I let it drop, focused on my family and marriage and was the best wife I could be. He threw a tantrum at the time. OW's mom watched our daughter and I refused to let her any longer. Until that time, H was very helpful with DD - made her breakfast, did laundry, etc. Once I told him I would not allow my daughter there any longer, he refused to do anything for my DD. He also went undercover with the affair - hiding his phone, being evasive, slowly cutting me out of his life. Then came the nitpicking, hostility, etc. I never connected the two.

I should have let all hell break loose at that point but I did not know about MB. I was so naieve.

But we had issues all along that I did not know were issues...namely, that my H was passive aggressive, had poor boundaries with women and he did not respect my wishes.
Examples of poor boundaries w/women:
- While I was dating H, he went to dinner with his ex-wife to exchange some belongings. He later told me she propositioned him for sex but he loved me too much. What the hell was I thinking when I married him!!
-H had invited his ex wife over to the house he and I just purchased right after we got married. I told him no or that it was OK if I were there when he invited her. He got upset and never invited her over. He stayed in touch with Ex over the years but never told me about it.
-H had many female friends - especially at work.
-I overheard him joke with females frequently about sex.

I have always been a very confident woman so these things never really bothered me but they should have.

Examples of not respecting my wishes...
-My H often made decisions and then let me know afterwards - he would say things like, "I want to go to XYZ place on Saturday. I already told them I'm coming. I'd like it if you came but if you can't..."

-From early on in our marriage, H started to work much longer hours. I asked him repeatedly to cut back, come home early sometimes etc and he always refused.

- I asked him frequently to "romance" me. Take me out to dinner, buy me flowers, etc. and he said "I do that already." and then basically stopped doing it.

He was very passive aggressive throughout...little things, really. He used to go grocery shopping but would never check to see what we had before going. I'd end up with 20 boxes of mac & cheese but no butter. So I said to him, check the refrigerator before you go. His response...separate the grocery shopping. He only bought things he needed to make for lunch at work.

We all hope your H can turn around before you have to go to Plan B but please get your ducks in a row now.

Fuzzy that does sound a lot like my H. The part about making plans and telling you after the fact is exactly what my H does to me. He'll tell me he made plans, or invited someone to something (like inviting his coworker several times) after the fact. I am fairly certain he does this so that I can't object. It is disrespectful.

I think earlier in the thread people really hit the nail on the head when they said my H needs admiration. I think a lot of these 'friendships' he has had with other women initially began with them showing him acceptance and attention. I think he eats this up. I don't know if he wants to cheat on me, but I do know that he shouldn't be getting these things from other women and especially not indulging himself in it by going for one on one outings with them, texting, facebooking, etc.

My husband also has some dysfunction when it comes to relationships I feel. I think this has a lot to do with his childhood and not feeling loved by his mother, and not having any relationship with her since he was eighteen. I am certain his need for acceptance from women is somehow tied to this in some way as well. Although, I think it's fair to say a lot of people trauma or no trauma enjoy attention from the opposite sex. But my husband takes it a step further, and that has been and still is my biggest issue.

He's had one male friend in all the years I've known him. I wasn't crazy about this friendship initially, which also fuels my H with his thinking I don't want him to have any friends. My issue with his male friend, who he rarely speaks to now, was that he was single, frequented strip clubs on a regular basis, and had no respect for our marriage. My H once told me he was going to take his friend out to bars and be his wingman to help him meet women. To his surprise I became upset about this idea. This friend of his also would come to my home to burn CD's full of porn from my H. To my husbands surprise I also put my foot down to this and thought they were both being extremely inappropriate and disrespectful.

My husband makes bad choices when it comes to friends. When I've tried to get him to come out with my friend and her H who are both nice people, he refuses and says he doesn't like them. It's caused strain on my friendship because when you turn people down over and over again on invitations they eventually stop inviting you. It's the same with these relatives of mine who want to come over for dinner tomorrow. My husband cannot stand either of them. In their case they have both done things a little irritating, but nothing unforgivable and they are family.

He can cut people off without batting an eye lash, he cut off his entire family because he didn't feel accepted. Maybe they didn't accept him fully, they vary greatly on religious beliefs but I've seen his mother send emails and try to reach him and he shuts her out and will go years without any correspondence. I met his step father for the very first time just six months ago, he was very nice. I have said to my H he should contact his step father and mother to see how they're doing on several occasions, but he won't.

Gail that was a post with a lot of words in it. What are you going to do now?

I really don't want to see you here in a coupld of years saying that your WH is leaving you. You need to do something about this NOW.

Gail,

Your H sounds more and more like mine (unfortunately).

Without going into every detail, my WSTBXH has major woman issues. I believe he is a misogynist. His Mom wasn't a real Mom (more like a friend and she was a cheater - cheated on WSTBXH's dad), he tends to pick women who are inferior to him (less attractive, uneducated, non-threatening) and he likes porn (the more humiliating to the woman, the better - I discovered this while uncovering the affair...what a lovely surprise).

He both craves the attention and admiration of women but is skeptical of it so it is always kept at a distance. That's why friendships (he gets pity and attention from women - always younger) and the porn (he gets to act out his fantasies of hurting women who have hurt him in the past).

He is also very unforgiving. He will hold a grudge for decades against someone for the slightest thing.

WSTBXH also has issues with his choice in male friends.

I tell you these details because for so long, I was foggy myself...Idid not face certain facts about my H. I always made excuses for him - he had a rough childhood, blah, blah blah. But 7 months away from him have given me clarity and I only share my experiences with you to show you a path your H may be on if not stopped.

My plan for the time being is to continue in plan A. I do realize (and I didn't before this thread, which in hindsight I am surprised I did not see it) that there are deficits in our marriage. I am not innocent here, I don't give my husband admiration. In fact, being honest, I can actually be quite harsh on him and rarely give him praise. I'm more likely to roll my eyes at him. For the past year I have not tried to meet his SF need or try to spend much time with him alone.

I can see why he might seek the admiration and attention from another woman. I haven't been the best spouse, especially not in the past year.

I'm not sure if my efforts will change much. Maybe things are too far gone, or maybe this issue is deeper than what has happened recently in our marriage. But I am willing to try to meet his needs and do the work to make our marriage better.

I hope that will be enough, but I have spent a lot of time planning for going into plan B.

So far, and I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I haven't found it - he has kept his promise to not meet with her, text her, or call her.

I have explained to him that if he does meet up with her or initiate contact outside of work that he will be choosing her and he will be telling me loud and clear that I am not as important to him. He knows that things are on the brink of me asking him to leave. It has happened before, but last time I took him back after only a few days.

I am thinking of maybe setting up some counseling myself. I don't think I have an issue, and I don't buy his excuse that this is all me. But I do feel like I don't have many people in my life I can confide in (which is a large part of why I am here, because it's cathartic to vent sometimes. But also I agree with the MB philosophies) and possibly deal with any depression or issues that may arise if I do go into plan B.

I have done the same for so many years. I have wanted to help him, and my heart has broke for him because of his history with his family. I have made excuses for his behavior.
He had me convinced for years that they were the most horrible people imaginable and after many, many emails to his mother (to let her know she had grandchildren for one) and meeting his step father I can't see it. Now, I am not saying they didn't have issues or that his parents have never done anything wrong. I know my H and I don't think he cut them off because of nothing. But I think he blew the situation out of proportion and it still surprises me how he could cut off his entire family. My own family has had many issues, ups and downs, but I can't imagine just cutting them all off.

I simply don't see this as a sitch where you won't need Plan B, and sooner rather than later.

Even if you haven't found an A, his IB is enough to warrant Plan B. Plan A him to show him what he would be missing, and then Plan B.

Looking into how his mother treated him, how he isn't able to pick the correct friends, etc, is not going to help your sitch now.

Oh BTW, you not meeting his EN for Admiration gives him NO RIGHT to go outside of your marriage to find it.

I saw on an archived thread about a woman who was contacted by the OW after she had gone to Plan D,

The OW and WH's relationships was in trouble after a certain amount of time in the 'real world'

OW contacted BS to tell her the final straw and why she dumped WH was 'finding' the plan B letter that the WH had lovingly kept the whole time!

And think about it, most of these waywards are admiration hungry - they arent going to throw that letter away.

I just wanted to give an update. The past few days have went much better.

My husband and I were getting in these spats and he'd bring it up in the morning before going to work, but then by the time he'd get home from work he'd be in a good mood and act like nothing had happened. This perplexed me. It dawned on me that maybe he is getting stressed out and thinking about this in the morning because he has to go into work and she is there and he has to avoid her. I also realized he was never going to tell her that his wife was the one putting her foot down. He told me to do so would be incredibly awkward and imply there was something inappropriate.

When he came home a few nights ago I told him that I understand this might be awkward and uncomfortable for him. That I realize he may not want the entire office gossiping that his wife thought he was going too far with this coworker and how that might look. I think he probably deserves it, and got himself into this mess but at this point I just want to get back on track here and stop fighting. I told him to tell OW (or any woman that wants go to lunch) that he and I agreed no lunches because it was getting too expensive and to bring in a lunch everyday. He perked up when I said this, because it is true that I was bringing up his lunch costs before I ever knew about OW and have suggested he bring in his own many times. I know he should probably be telling this woman, and any others that lunch is off the table. But I guess so long as he doesn't go I don't care what he tells them to try and save face. I would obviously prefer he be upfront and say he values his wife more than his ego or some woman's feeling in the office.

I told him not to get too stressed out if she tries to talk to him at work either. He'd been trying to avoid her completely for the past week or so. I said I will not get upset if she asks about his weekend. I told him small talk with women in the office was never what was upsetting me. It's the lunches, the texting, the facebooking - taking things outside of the office. I said if he can not do this (found out he's taken out two other female coworkers to lunch beside her) then I will be happy.

Since then we've been getting along pretty well. He has stopped making passive aggressive comments and he's been being more affectionate.

We went out for Thai food for lunch yesterday and we had a lot of fun together.

Tonight we're going out to a wine bar and a walk after work (got a babysitter lined up for every weekend!) and on Sunday I am going to try to arrange for us to go canoeing.

He called me today because he forgot his lunch (he has been bringing his own in) at home and was going to go grab a wrap from a nearby deli. He stayed on the phone with me the entire time. I thought he was trying to be ridiculous or make me feel like a prison warden and told him he didn't have to keep me on the phone. He replied he wanted to talk to me anyway, and that when I saw the charge he wanted me to not have to worry. He actually said it sincerely and wasn't being passive aggressive.