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Thanks for that, now the hard task of talking to him about it, he is very sensitive of any possible negativeness regarding our privarte bedroom life. Wish me luck please.

PS> I have asked him multiple times to stop masturbating and especially to porn he has told me he stopped then i found the pictures on his smartphone months after he was promising me that he had stopped. Now claims he still masturbated when it is absolutely necessary but does not use images or porn. If you ask me weather i beleive that my answer would be no


BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

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I found this from another thread and felt like it was a great start. I wish I would have read that before my WH's A. This was a huge issue in my marriage.

Originally Posted by Doormat_No_More
Dr. Harley is of the opinion that most pornography usage by most men is not an addiction. Read Dr. Harley's recent article on it here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8120_sex_addiction.html

So knowing that, in most cases, male pornography usage isn't an addiction but is Independent Behavior and Dishonesty wrapped in a tight little bundle, where do you from here? The cure for Independent Behavior is the Policy of Radical Honesty, the Policy of Joint Agreement, and Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation. Your demands that he stop using porn -- and his grudging acquiescence thereto -- haven't worked well so far.

I never had a strong pornography habit, but I did view it from time to time. Our solution proceeded in stages. Note this is just the kind of organic process we fell into as we regularly renegotiated, not a prescribed treatment strategy.

We set up a couple of EPs. I don't compute in private if it can be avoided. If I will be computing in private, my wife must always know when/where. I set up my computer in the family room so that, being in a public place, I'm less likely to be tempted there. My web history is always available for her to view, and I set up a VNC-based "screen logger" that keeps logs around for a couple of weeks if she wants to peruse my history. There's obviously some trust involved there -- I set up the tools, I would know how to disable them -- but in my case, it's been enough.

Stage 1: Agreeing pornography use was Independent Behavior and a Love Buster, we agreed that I would contact my wife regarding her sexual availability before I indulged in self-gratification. We followed this religiously and came up with a code-phrase so we could even POJA about it with kids around: "Honey, are you feeling available today?". This served two purposes:
1. Let her know of my sexual interest in case she was ready/willing to engage in SF that day.
2. The default position was that if her answer to the question was "no", that I was going to take care of my need at some point that day.

Now, this wasn't a perfect solution, but it was one we lived with for about 8 months, and it worked decently well. I fulfilled Radical Honesty in that, when I engaged in self-gratification, she was aware of it. Eventually, though, I pushed for a new agreement, as I'd encountered this advice from Dr. Harley:

Originally Posted by Dr. Harley
Every sexual experience you have should be shared with your spouse

That piqued my interest, so we moved on to Stage 2, which was basically the same as Step 1 with one change: she must be present and aware when I indulged. This meant that if I took care of myself, it was in the same room with her. That experience was a little off-putting for both of us (maybe less so for others), so we moved on to a new agreement after a short time.

We moved on to Stage 3: scheduling our sexual experiences together. I ask the same question, but if the answer is "no" I don't go take care of myself. No important bits will explode if we don't make love; I'll just feel an uncomfortable pressure and sometimes slight pain if we go more than a few days between. When one of us travels, we schedule some "webcam time" together privately. It was a little weird at first, but gets better with time.

If we arrive in a situation where she's sick or unwilling, and it's been more than a couple of days, in those cases she'll ask me to take care of myself. Mutual enthusiastic agreement, and it happens very rarely, but there it is.

It took Radical Honesty on my part to admit my feelings in advance, and to make her aware of the discomfort I experience if we go more than 2-3 days without. I have slipped up from time to time, but Radical Honesty with my spouse has identified why/when/where I slipped up, and WITHOUT ANGER we came to new agreements together to help implement some precautions to prevent recidivism.

Your path may be different. I was reluctant to write this as it's a bit of an over-share, but there is a path out. That path, though, will almost certainly require provisional POJA attempts, where you recognize this isn't the ideal solution, but it's moving toward your goal so the two of you can accustom yourselves to your new reality.

And that's it in a nutshell. "Enthuasiastic agreement" really means that, at a minimum, neither spouse dislikes the idea, but ideally that both LOVE the idea. Learning to make provisional enthusiastic agreements -- agreements for a limited time, or recognizing that you'll probably want to change them in the future but want to start somewhere -- is a transforming MarriageBuilders technique that's totally win/win.

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I agree with DNM's methodology and use of POJA as it pertains to the mutual enthusiastic agreement of him and his spouse...


However, I will say that if this were to be a solution, and if pornography were to be used as a stimulant in any case - that the material used would be subject to viewing and approval of the wife.

There is a ton of hyperstimulating, unrealistic trash out there that can cause exactly what has happened to the OP of this thread; the man can no longer sustain an erection for intercourse.

In this case, he has likely driven his reward system to a point in which only hyperstimulating (read unrealistic) depictions or sexual actions will be stimulating.

In this case, Dr. Harley's recommendation is one good approach, and certainly more sustaining of a romantic relationship than more radical interventions.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Hello,

Just posting a quick update

All is ok here marriage wise UA time was going according to schedule but unfortunately as of Monday night both me and the hubby have caught a lovely bug off the kids and have been battling with the care of 4 overactive monkeys as well as taking turns to sleep in-between the coughing, runny noses and on off fever (ours not the kids they just passed on their bugs and it did t effect them as bad as us).

So UA time involves cuddling with sore heads and trying not to talk too much as can't coordinate talking and breathing out of mouth at the same time but at least we are still spending time together although I immagined it would be some what less miserable.

this really was the perfect time for the grandparents to take a vacation.

Hope to be back in full swing after the weekend.

I'm off to wrestle with the hubby over the last pack of strepsils.


BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

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Another quick update

All still going ok, having gastric band op on Friday. H being supportive and affectionate, I'm just stressing.

Can't help the instinct of pushing him away when I'm stressed he's really down about my rejections but I don't feel I can help it and now even occasionally accusing me of being involved in an A even though I hardly leave the house at the moment.

Anyone got any tips that would be great. I dont care about being accused because I'm totally transparent and have nothing to hide but feeling bad because my stressing is making him sad and I don't want to make him sad.


BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

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Let him be affectionate to you. Stop fighting it and get to 20+ UA time. Let him take care of you. Try it out for a while -- Be vulnerable.

Tough~

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just a side note, you are having what should be life changing surgery on friday. have you both been to see a counselor about what your life will look like after. i know you are stressed, but i am sure he is too.

1. if you will be ok and 2. what will be different after. not a medical profession but have see alot of bari situations and it is life changing and fantastic if you commit to doing what the doctor says and seeking help because it will be a new you!

good for you! hope things go well and will be looking forward to hearing from you after. take it easy on yourself!!!



Me 44- yes ugggh
WH 47
together 26 years M 19
serial cheater big time
DD1 2.24.11
NC letter sent 3/7/11
NC letter to OW2 april
final truths 5/8-- all of them poly confirmed 5/18
working the plan

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He is all over me all the time! Not in a sf way but just wanting to have contact all day. He has 2 weeks off work at the moment and is driving me insane.

To give you some examples. I get up and try to get dressed in the morning and the minute start to undress he drags me back to bed or starts pawing at me, fight him off get down stairs and try to do some housework here he is again pawing trying to kiss me, wants me to drop what I'm doing and cuddle him.

Im finding it infuriating at the moment. I just need some space. I need to be able to perform a simple task like getting dressed in the morning without fear of being manhandled.

It's my coping mechanism, when I'm stressed I need to be left alone to clean/ tidy or just run around uninterrupted to burn off the stress energy. I can't achieve that if I have to stop for kisses and cuddles all day.

Then I feel horrible cause I'm rejecting him and he looks brokenhearted. I don't know how to make it better.


BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

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Chica thanks

I have lost about 55lb on my own but then some of the weight came back, lost it again it came back again. I am on the small side to have this op as I have a BMI of 32 in the uk they do not reccomend this operation to anyone with a BMI under 35 unless they have medical grounds. I had to have extra checks to make sure I could have the band due to not meeting the minimum weight requirement. I have poly cystic ovarian syndrome at causes me lots of issues with hormones, spots, hair, weight gain, chronic fatigue etc so if I get to a healthy BMI the PCSO will likely go into dormant mode meaning no more pizza face for me or having to pluck facial hair daily and more energy.

I know the band is not a miracle cure and i have to work with it for it to be successful. I'm stressed at the moment as I'm on a pre op diet of liquids (lo cal milkshakes) and I'm starving hungry plus can't sleep when I'm hungry ( hence why it's 3 am in the uk and I'm still awake) and as I also gave up a 40 a day cigarette habit 2 months I haven't got anything to fall back on. No smoking or eating and u get a very grouchy mama. Just want the op over so even though I'll still have to follow a diet I won't actually feel like I'm starving hungry.


I know I'm venting and many people will say I should stop and count my blessings for having a h who wants me and a life changing op happening and I agree with that 90% of the time just not now that I am hungry and not sleeping and would sell one arm for a cigarette.


BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

Joined: Nov 2008
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NB, it sounds like you're both trapped in this feedback loop:

*Your H needs you (for EN-meeting; validation; assurance that he is important to you <-- is my primary guess)

*You pull back, seeking space

*He feels rejected, needs to reach out more

*You pull back more, seeking more space

*Etc., etc., etc.

I understand now is a hugely stressful time for you, and, as chickadee mentioned, a lot of unknowns and uncertainty about the future. I wonder, though, if a small talk w/ your H will head him off at the pass, so to speak.

Have you discussed your coping mechanisms with him? Also, I will second what Tough had to say: be vulnerable. It may surprise you what your H does - maybe step up and make things better? If I were in your H's shoes, I would feel blessed indeed if my spouse were to open up to me and give me the opportunity to carry some of the load.

What are your thoughts about having a sit down, O&H discussion with him? I suspect he needs reassurance, and if you two can POJA a plan for that (or whatever it is he's after), you may find his role in the relationship right now becomes less stressful and more supportive from your POV.

Just thinking what would help me if I were your H - I know I do similar things w/ my DH, seeking assurances and whatnot.


Me - 30 (FWW)
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you are funny! 40 cig a day, thats pretty bad, you are jonesing. deep breaths 3 min. i know you want to smack me now. or just got have sx with your hubby. you have another outlet waiting for you in bed. it will make you both feel better!!

and you will get some sleep!

no food no cigs, surgery and he keeps pawing at you. the best part of your day was the pawing. go back to bed!!


Me 44- yes ugggh
WH 47
together 26 years M 19
serial cheater big time
DD1 2.24.11
NC letter sent 3/7/11
NC letter to OW2 april
final truths 5/8-- all of them poly confirmed 5/18
working the plan

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Mrs v
Thanks for bringing some rationality to the chaos, you are spot on,
I have communicated with him in a good way about what's going on lad he does understand but that does not stop him from feeling rejected. I then try and meet him halfway and offer cuddles etc when he back off a bit but I'm finding little things hard and I am scared of being selfish because right now it seams to be all about me and I don't like that as I feel guilty.

So we have done some good work to a dress this by POJA ing lots .

For example I'm having my operation in a clinic 4 hours drive away from home, in that town they house the football stadium of the team my h support so we agreed that while I'm having the op he has booked a stadium tour so he will get something out of the trip and I booked hi into the stadiums hotel for the night so he can have the full experience. I love doing little gestures like that for him and I don't feel as bad for all the selfish care I'll require post op and I feel more affectionate a little less guilty and stressed.

On the other hand he is slim and eats tons and does not put on weight no matter what he eats, he spends all day grazing on food and when I'm on a stict pre op diet and hungry I'm getting irritates with him stuffing his face 24/7 I can't really blame him he's just doing what he normally does but I do get irritated and tend to back away from him. Things like that I don't know how to tackle.

Our communication is good and I have let him see me cry these past couple of days and all in all he has been supportive. I'm just mad at myself for pushing him away and making him sad.


BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

Joined: Oct 2009
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Thanks chic your post made me laugh that woke him up (I'm using I pad in bed next to him asleep) and now he's pawing again.
Guess better go pretend to be asleep lol


BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

Joined: Jan 2011
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NB - FWIW - something to ponder. My WW lost about 50 Kg before she met me. She looked good to me, but she did have excess skin as a result of the weight loss. (For the record, she looked GREAT to me - her H) This bothered WW very much and for her 40th birthday, I 'wanted' to give her something special. Well, I did - she got the cosmetic surgery to remove the skin. IMVHO - this was the straw that broke the camel's back and within 3 months she was in an EA that went PA a couple months later.

So, this is a potentially life changing event. Be aware of the impact this will have good or bad. In my WWs case, the initial surgery was botched and she needed follow up surgery 3 months later. She needs another one or two surgeries to correct the first one now. In the meantime, her coping mechanism was to have an affair and walk away from me and her 5 year old son.


BS(me)- 45
WW - 41
D-day 1 - (PA) 01/2011
DS - 6
Exposure: early 02/2011
Started Plan B - 7/11
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Andy I have a friend who did exactly what your ww did lost a lot of weight has skin tuck and met her affair partner on the ward she has her skin tuck. She is now divorced affair partner has passed away and the kids have no contact with their dad.

I have the luxury of having mb and knowing about and having boundaries in place to prevent me doing this mistake. I'm not going to say I'm different I won't feel like this or that because Im not psychic I dont know how I'll feel but what I do know is that im taking extraordinary precautions to protect my marriage in thinness or with fat.

Thanks for sharing and for the heads up I really appreciate it. I would feel devastated if I paid for my h to better himself and then for him to do that to me my prayers go to you and the kid.


BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 987
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Originally Posted by NB28
Mrs v
Thanks for bringing some rationality to the chaos, you are spot on,
I have communicated with him in a good way about what's going on lad he does understand but that does not stop him from feeling rejected. I then try and meet him halfway and offer cuddles etc when he back off a bit but I'm finding little things hard and I am scared of being selfish because right now it seams to be all about me and I don't like that as I feel guilty.

So we have done some good work to a dress this by POJA ing lots .

For example I'm having my operation in a clinic 4 hours drive away from home, in that town they house the football stadium of the team my h support so we agreed that while I'm having the op he has booked a stadium tour so he will get something out of the trip and I booked hi into the stadiums hotel for the night so he can have the full experience. I love doing little gestures like that for him and I don't feel as bad for all the selfish care I'll require post op and I feel more affectionate a little less guilty and stressed.

On the other hand he is slim and eats tons and does not put on weight no matter what he eats, he spends all day grazing on food and when I'm on a stict pre op diet and hungry I'm getting irritates with him stuffing his face 24/7 I can't really blame him he's just doing what he normally does but I do get irritated and tend to back away from him. Things like that I don't know how to tackle.

Our communication is good and I have let him see me cry these past couple of days and all in all he has been supportive. I'm just mad at myself for pushing him away and making him sad.

Hm, perhaps I'm interpreting this incorrectly. From your description, it makes sense to me that this is not about you being unselfish and doing things for him; rather, it is about you being vulnerable and letting him do things for you.

Maybe he needs to feel important to you/needed by you. Maybe he is worried about this surgery/the future and is expressing it via "pawing"/SF.

What has he told you re: your thoughts on these things when you two have talked about them?

Also, he may not be connecting the dots re: the pre-op diet, no smoking, irritability, etc. He also may not realize he is grazing and it is affecting you. Have you mentioned these things to him? It may seem obvious, but that doesn't mean everyone connects the dots - believe me, I know! smile

Or, as I mentioned, I could be totally wrong. It would certainly not be the first time! laugh


Me - 30 (FWW)
H - 30 (BH)
DSx2
D-day: 2008
Joined: Oct 2009
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Mrs v
I'll will have to have a talk about this with him tomorrow I just have to watch the way i say things as when irritated I'm sure I can be less than tactful but now I have a path to follow I can prepare in advance what I want to say and watch how I say it.



BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 721
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thinking about you today/tomorrow. hope it all goes well


Me 44- yes ugggh
WH 47
together 26 years M 19
serial cheater big time
DD1 2.24.11
NC letter sent 3/7/11
NC letter to OW2 april
final truths 5/8-- all of them poly confirmed 5/18
working the plan

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,719
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NB28 - thanks for the kind words. It's vey devastating emotionally and there's a financial price as well. That's minor, but it's still there. Hope all goes well in surgery!


BS(me)- 45
WW - 41
D-day 1 - (PA) 01/2011
DS - 6
Exposure: early 02/2011
Started Plan B - 7/11
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Hey MB

Op was 14 hours ago being discharged in an hour or so, catching up with MB.
H wa great kept me calm and was very helpful. I'm not in pain and feel like all the stress is finally over.

Everything went well we had a lot of laughs on the 4 hours drive to the clinic, I'm looking forward to the drive home and getting some more UA time.

Thanks for everyone's kind words and support.



BW 36(Me)
WS 38
Married: 2000
DD1November 22 2008 - DD2 October 2014
PA Duration September 08 - November 08
Second discovery- 6 online affairs 4 sexual one emotional. October 2014.kids: DS 17, DS 14, DS 12, DS 10 . Baby after divorce DS 18months

Divorced

Was misled into thinking we were in recovery for 6 years.

If you were shocked reading any of this, that this is the consequence of not following MB to the LETTER.

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