I'm new to this forum, but I've read many posts and feel great about the comraderie and experience flowing through this site.

I am in the middle of a divorce. My soon-to-be-ex-husband (STBEH) and I share a lot of love, but have resolved that our different attitudes towards financial responsibility could not be bridged. Dr. Harley's concept is terrific and we both agree that it makes a lot of sense, but we feel that you would have to start with two people who are compatible, especially with financial future goals.

There were no affairs, but there were financial infidelities on his end that were the bane of my existence. Every few months or so, there will be "incidents" and I have no more left in me to deal with it. So, we've agreed that we are better off as friends and it will make us better co-parents to our 4-year old daughter.

Please share any insight you may have about dealing with financial infidelities in your marriage, I would love to know what, if anything, can be saved from it.

I don't know yet all the acronyms, but here goes:

Me: AW
Him: WH
DOM: 2/2007
DOD: approximately January/February 2012

Really? You're getting divorced and depriving a 4-year old child of a two-parent home because your husband is childish about money?

Did you try any form of financial counseling first?

How long did you know this guy before you married him? Did you have any idea that he was a free spirit and not very responsible? I hope that you are aware that you'll still be dealing with his money problems for the next 14+ years because he won't do a good job paying child support.

As far as my own experience with financial infidelity: My ex-husband expected me to be a stay-at-home mother, but after 23 years he cut me off financially because I asked him to move out of the house to give me some space. He was in love with another woman and had become emotionally and verbally abusive to me and the children. Then he lied and told me that he had opened a separate bank account and would start paying the household bills from that account. But he didn't.

After we had been separated for several months he finally started depositing money into the joint account. Then he got angry at me and totally cleaned out the joint account.

Then there was that whole thing of buying a 25' sailboat and a convertible without my input during the marriage.

Not to mention the fact that he posted on his facebook page about spending $14,000 on his new kitchen while not supporting me and children financially during the divorce.

Oh my! What a tragic waste! Dr Harley's program RESOLVES incompatibility. It doesn't REQUIRE you to be compatible in order for it to work. The solution to incompatibility is to become COMPATIBLE, not to get divorced. Your marriage can be saved. Compatibility is something that is learned. It does not happen by magic. Dr. Harley's policy of joint agreement would resolve your problems and help you become compatible.

You can learn to be compatible if you use this program, DMommaBear. If you don't learn to resolve problems in this marriage, you will have the same problem in the next marriage, I assure you. But, your next husband won't be the father of your child. You might as well learn the skills in this marriage since he is the father of your child.

Check this out: Following the Policy of Joint Agreement When You're VERY Incompatible

Your marriage is VERY salvagable based on what you told us here.

I dealt with financial infidelities throughout my marriage. When a wayward does what he pleases and does not respect the marriage, financial infidelity can be just the tip of the iceberg. In my case the financial irregularities were matched by adulteries. If you don't respect the marriage in one area, why would you respect it in another?

It isn't the 'viewpoint' that matters, it is how you resolve your differences. If you are just unable to negotiate with one another, MB has all kinds of help for you. If the fundamental problem is one of honesty, that takes a willingness to change that can be much more difficult to achieve.

Something that I did not understand until I had spent some serious time looking at my own behaviour, was the extent to which I had enabled my WH's dishonesty by rescuing him from one mess after another caused by his lies. If I had known about MB, I would have approached the problems quite differently and might still be married.

DMomma, I've dealt with what you call financial infidelity, but I think of it more as independent behavior. You can recover this marriage, and it is in your child's best interest to do so. First, what are these infidelities? Is it purchases or loaning money to friends/family? Gambling? I ask because the former is easier to POJA, the latter is an addiction that you should require he get treatment for.

Is he interested in recovering the marriage? Are you willing to do the work to do that, or do you want (what you think will be) an easy out?

You lable him your "WH" when he has not been unfaithful.
Please, don't do this.

If you want suggestions, you should consider being more specific about his financial irresponsible habits/patterns.

CWMI is right, this comes under independent behavior, which is resolved by this program. My H and I WERE completely incompatible when it came to our approach on handling money. He is a compulsive saver and is very frugal. I am a big spender and never saved. We have become very compatible using this program by learning to negotiate solutions that make us both happy.

When we went to the MB weekend seminar, I scored at the very TOP RANGE of independent behavior, btw. But I have stopped engaging in IB.

I hate to break it to you, but this is probably an unrealistic expectation.

Like I said, I wasn't sure what all the acronyms are for, so I guess I used the wrong one. SORRY. So, I'll just use H.

For years, I've tried to come up with solutions that'll work for the both us, which, of course, involved work on both our parts to compromise. I picked up the slack (so as my family did not become insolvent through lay-offs and job changes), but on the other end were only promises. Rather, broken promises. He said one thing, but did another.

His behavior did not change and we just keep having incidents (money missing, credit lates, etc.) that kept bogging us down. It made both of us miserable. He wasn't able to think of the family first and indulged in instant gratification without a discussions with his supposed partner, and I'm more of a careful financial planner. Our differences in priorities and the lack of effort to compromise put the nail in the coffin, sadly. However, since our decision to separate, the energy between us has improved vastly. We are looking forward to making a new beginning with two nests.

I agree with Marcos.
Co-parenting is what you do when you live in the same house as the other parent. If you are separate you will be parallel parenting. He'll do what he wants when he's with the kid and you'll do what you want when you're with the kid. There's really no "co" there at all.

And make no mistake about it: divorce is MUCH harder and more damaging to a child than adhering to a plan to stay together. In spite of the illusion, there is really no comparison.

optimism

DMB you realize that even with "traditional" infidelity, most folks on this site don't recommend simply jumping ship, right? Usually a Plan A would be implemented, then perhaps a Plan B.
Personally I would rather my now-exwife had been a shopaholic than an adulterer. I think that would have been easier to reconcile, and much less detrimental to our relationship and our kids. I think your marriage can be saved.

opt

DMB
Ive been thinking more about your situation. A fatal flaw I have.

Is there something else going on? I must say that from my experience and reading here, women don't tend to leave unless they have a landing pad. You say there was no cheating, but how do you define adultery? Do you and/or your husband currently have alternative plans taking shape by any chance?

opt

This is why I am suggesting trying something different. The reason it never worked is because you weren't finding solutions that you were BOTH enthusiastic about. Spouses rarely break agreements they are enthusiastic about. I suspect he agreed to things he really didn't want to do. That is how the POJA is different and would solve your problems.

Have you met someone else?

For those who inquired: No, I've not met someone else and have no "landing pad" aside from temporarily moving in with my mother.

There are many more details I've not divulged as I'm new to the whole divorce forum thing and am not yet able to air out all the dirty laundry.

I will say, however, that the nail in our coffin happened 2 weeks ago, when my soon-to-be-ex-husband took thousands out of our joint savings, without telling me (beforehand or afterwards, he let me find the money missing, as is his usual MO), and bought a motorcycle. Another detail: I nursed him back to health after he almost died from a motorcycle accident. Only last year did he detox off of his meds. Still fresh, still traumatizing for me. We talked about it a few weeks ago and I told him that the wounds were still too fresh and it's too soon for me to see him on a bike. As usual, he did what he wanted without regard for me or the family. I told him that every time he rides, he is running the risk of rendering our daughter fatherless. He doesn't care. It's what HE wants to do, so be it.

I cannot work on this marriage alone and he has proven to me, time and again, that he is not interested to change his behavior.

Again, I'm just looking for others who have had the same experiences to share some insight with me.

One possibility Dr. Harley brought up in the back of his book Love Busters is for the husband and wife to have a joint checking account that requires both of their signatures on every check. That way, no money can be spent without the approval of both husband and wife. This perfectly implements Dr. Harley's Policy of Joint Agreement, which over time builds compatibility.

Have you read the Basic Concepts?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/mb2.cfm?recno=3

DMB, what you're describing is so much more than just a different financial viewpoint. You are talking about a narcissist who is emotionally abusive to you and your daughter.

I'd suggest that you research narcissistic personality disorder. And if that's what you're dealing with, I think you're making the right decision.

With all due respect to my good friend Kirby, one really can't diagnose a personality disorder second-hand from three posts. (luv ya, Kirb) For now I'd put this in the category of straight up IB addiction, legit, and to the nth degree.

DMB, I'm glad to hear you haven't succumbed to the temptation as I'm sure the thought has crossed your mind. Good for you.

This seems like a situation that I've seen a couple other times and wondered about: does Plan A/Plan B approach apply in the absence of straight adultery??? Hopefully someone more learned in this area would be able to help ~ I simply haven't had time or inclination to look into it that much. To me, getting to Plan B with a letter stating "your behavior is hurting me and I can't be around it anymore....I have an intermediary....I can't see you until you have implemented extraordinary precautions regarding x,y,and z..." makes sense. However, I failed to implement a true Plan B in my own situation because I had no proof that the affair was more than emotional. I was too screwed up, too new, too scared and just didn't know how to define a Plan B without a proven PA. Clearly I'm talking theoretical constructs here.

Anyway, MommaBear, I wouldn't have written the above if I didn't hope, at least for your daughter's sake that you take drastic measures to save the marriage. Marriages have come back from way worse. It will be a monumental effort with a tactical and patient approach. You seem like an intelligent and level-headed individual; I know you could do it. You will need help. Help is available.

One more thing to take issue with, however. You don't co-parent when you're divorced. That's like having a co-pilot in another plane. Divorced parenting is Co-NOTHING, and does not compare in any way to two loving parents in the same house. Don't buy that pop-culture, fad-psychology, fantasy land Bull-o-ney.

opt

Absolutely! Dr Harley recommends this approach in his article "When to Call it Quits." When to Call it Quits. IMO, that would be the perfect approach. And if he doesn't change, she could divorce him.

Great post, optimism!

Luv you, too, Opt. And I'm not trying to diagnose a personality disorder and I hope that DMommaBear doesn't think I've made any kind of call on that. I think it's one thing among many that she needs to consider.

I just think that at the heart of Independent Behaviors is self-centeredness/selfishness. There's a continuum--from the person who is just a touch self-centered and they don't think of their spouse when they ought to, all the way over to the psychopath who sees other people as tools to be used.

I don't know what's really going on with DMB and her husband, but it sounds like this is a lot worse than a man who is a bit selfish. The first detail she gave, of secretly spending thousands of dollars on a motorcycle as soon as he recovered from the last severe wreck after his wife objected to that purchase, seems pretty high on the selfishness scale to me. Which immediately makes me think of a narcissist.

I think that DMB needs to do some research to help her learn about what may be going on with her husband and her marriage.

She should also look into bi-polar disorder because some people with that have a huge problem with spending and also ADHD because it sounds like her H has problems with impulse control.

Whatever is going on here, it sounds to me like it's beyond "normal" levels of selfishness and into "not normal" behavior.

And, MommaBear, you need to consider counseling for yourself and anti-depressants if you need them. I lived with "not normal" for many years and it leaves you thinking that YOU are the crazy one.

Thank you, Kirby. I have vetting this out for a long time, and do not take my decision lightly. This last incident is just the last of a long string of such actions. Thank you for your support.