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Fact is, you were unfaithful. No she wasn't. Unfaithfulness requires practicing some level of dishonesty to get one's needs met outside of one's M, and there was no such dishonesty here. I suspect that POJA (in the true meaning of the term) was not really followed here, and hbd now truly regrets that she engaged in extra-marital sex because her H wanted her to, and it really wasn't something that she wanted to do.
ManInMotion =========== (see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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Keep your eyes open and on him. It could be he is trying to assuage his own guilt or get a threesome with a woman going. I would snoop for inappropriate behaviour on his part without telling him - check his phone, pockets, the works.
Do this even if you think 'impossible'. I think its fair to say his boundaries are lax, so you could maybe nip his flirting or something in the bud, even if hes not having an affair yet.
Hopefully not though. Could you both be just drifting apart a bit? How are you at meeting needs and spending UA time with each other?
I would definitely listen to the vets about installing the EPs.
Tell your h you didnt enjoy the threesome, tell him it was a wake up call for you, that you want to feel 'close and connected' to him like you used to (did you?). Tell him you want him and no one else. This will speak to his admiration need hopefully and give you an insight into what he wants. Big him up, puff up the old ego, and see how he reacts..
Btw, what HAPPENED to make you do this? You clearly didnt want to - just wanted his attention. Is it fair to say he's been neglecting you a bit?
I dont think your solution was an MB approved plan!
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Let's say we both ENTHUSIASTICALLY AGREE to smoke 5 packs a day of Marlboro cigarettes. Does that somehow magically negate the effects of smoking? No, it does not.
It is the same with swinging. Swinging is adultery, and it does not matter if they both ENTHUSASTICALLY AGREE to act like pigs, it does not negate the damage done to the marriage. Adultery is DESTRUCTIVE. "honesty" does not negate that, enthusiastic agreement does not negate that. NOTHING negates the damage done to the marriage by committing adultery.
POJA is not intended to be used on activities/behaviors that are destructive to the marriage. That DEFEATS the purpose of the POJA.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Just an FYI, so there will be no more question about this, Adultery-Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse So this was most definitely adultery. Now that that is out of the way, it was adultery that was POJA'd, a you say, but now you regret it? hbd, how did you come to find this site, and how long have you been reading here? Have you used any of the other MB principles on your marriage? How long have you been following MB?
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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I would suspect your H is into internet porn. Something has deadened his sense of right/wrong.
Internet porn will sure do that.
If that is the case, yet another level of distance exists.
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While it wasnt dishonest, letting someone else meet your needs IS the fast track to an affair. In this case, admiration? SF? Yes, admiration for sure.  We cant be strong without acknowledging our weaknesses, hbd, so well done for recognising one NOW at least. You badly need a man's admiration at the moment, you were vulnerable to agreeing to have an affair. It doesnt really matter that your h egged you on, you knew it was an affair but you thought it would make you feel better in the short term. Every cheating spouse on here has done the same thing - short term ego fix without thinking of the long term implications for their marriage. I say this because you need to recognise you need the EPs as much as your 'lets have a threesome' husband. If a guy starts flirting ith you at work, seems besotted with you - would that attention be hard to resist for you right now? I think it would
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Just an FYI, so there will be no more question about this, Adultery-Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse So this was most definitely adultery. I'm not going to argue that definition of adultery, but what's being described here is certainly not cheating, an affair (of any sort) or unfaithfulness - all of which require one spouse resorting to dishonesty to get their needs met outside of their M.
ManInMotion =========== (see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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Btw, admiration is one of my weaknesses, so I dont let men admire me.
If they say something too intimate I have a special 'almost frown' that stops it happening again.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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What she has described here is adultery, plain and simple - it's not even up for debate:
a�dul�ter�y   /əˈdʌltəri/ Show Spelled [uh-duhl-tuh-ree] Show IPA �noun, plural -ter�ies. voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I would suspect your H is into internet porn. ...or he's involved in an A. A real one.
ManInMotion =========== (see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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And yes, she was unfaithful:
un�faith�ful   /ʌnˈfeɪθfəl/ Show Spelled [uhn-feyth-fuhl] Show IPA �adjective 1.not faithful; false to duty, obligation, or promises; faithless; disloyal. 2.not sexually faithful to a spouse or lover. 3.not accurate or complete; inexact: an unfaithful translation
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What she has described here is adultery, plain and simple - it's not even up for debate: ...but it is not CHEATING. It is NOT an AFFAIR. It is NOT UNFAITHFULNESS. It is NOT INFIDELITY. It is quite possible to have adultery without cheating (as has happened here), just like it is to have cheating without adultery (emotional affair). If you examine the MB links to the right of every message, you'll see that they refer to INFIDELITY, not ADULTERY. Perhaps that's because the good doctor recognizes the subtle but very important difference as well.
ManInMotion =========== (see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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And yes, she was unfaithful:
un�faith�ful   /ʌnˈfeɪθfəl/ Show Spelled [uhn-feyth-fuhl] Show IPA �adjective 1.not faithful; false to duty, obligation, or promises; faithless; disloyal. 2.not sexually faithful to a spouse or lover. 3.not accurate or complete; inexact: an unfaithful translation I disagree - you are misapplying the meaning of "faithful".
ManInMotion =========== (see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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Infidelity harms a marriage, adultery harms a marriage, and THIS has harmed THIS marriage. Are we seriously going to go round and round and "argue" over if this was an affair or not? Some of us believe that it WAS. I believe that is was an affair WITH consent, but it still HARMED, can we agree to THAT at least? hbd, how did you come to find out about MB? How long have you been using MB principles in your marriage, and what principles have you been using? I also DON'T agree that this was a case of POJA, as described by MB. HERE As ML has already suggested.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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Infidelity harms a marriage, adultery harms a marriage, and THIS has harmed THIS marriage. However, the reasons WHY the M is harmed are different. Affairs involve some level of dishonesty on the part of one spouse, in order to get their needs met outside of the M. Was any of that involved here? What has happened here is that in the M, one spouse has apparently had a need met by the other, at the expense of the other. I think that something a bit more than using the usual MB A-busting techniques needs to be involved here. I would start by trying to find out why her H was so enthusiastic, before AND after, about indulging in the threesome. Has he asked for any more, BTW?
ManInMotion =========== (see "MiM's Story" for more details)
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Fact is, you were unfaithful. No she wasn't. Unfaithfulness requires practicing some level of dishonesty to get one's needs met outside of one's M, and there was no such dishonesty here. Yes, she was. Faithfulness means not getting your EN met outside of the marriage. She was unfaithful when she violated her marriage vows and had sex with another man. Adultery (aka "being unfaithful") does not require dishonesty. Dr. Harley says so on his radio show.
Last edited by Prisca; 07/25/11 05:42 PM.
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When you are even simply navigating around this site, you learn that adultery causes problems with marriage.
If you have to even ASK if having a 3some is bad for your marriage, then there is a serious problem within your marriage period. It means that if you both agreed to this that neither of you place much emphasis on fidelity or trust or viewing the solemnity of your wedding vows in the first place.
I don't care WHAT you call the 3 way, it's plain cheating. We're not going to get into the 'type' or whatnot, (i.e. is what a former President and his intern did cheating?) It's PLAIN WRONG. Like you both taking a bottle of booze and drinking it together and then getting behind the wheel of a car. Both that, and your behavior with the other man or woman is simply WRONG and unethical, immoral, etc.
I don't even really think this needs to be discussed. It's kinda imho self-explanatory that this stuff is BAD for marriage period.
Change happens by listening and then starting a dialogue with the people who are doing something you don't believe is right. ~Jane Goodall
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Mim, but hbd WAS DISHONEST. She was obviously not as ENTHUSIASTIC about this as she led on to her H. She is now upset because she feels like he should have been jealous, but I don't believe that she told him that was the reaction she wanted in the first place.
There most definitely WAS dishonesty here, on BOTH of their parts, as well as some manipulation on BOTH their parts. There are probably other reasons that this marriage got to this point, as there are in ALL of the marriages who wind up here after an AFFAIR.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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I've saved this post on my Notable Posts thread .... because this topic always seems to pop back up. I think this is the best explanation of what is wrong with "open marriage" that I've read on this site.Marriage is a closed contract. When you open it....the contract has been broken. There are some people who argue that the contract is about "honesty" rather than "exclusivity", but opening a marriage invariable dilutes it's value as a covenant and opens it to RISK. Promiscuity waters down honor and marriage vows until they mean NOTHING.
I truly believe that there is a sanctity in the exclusive (emotional AND sexual) union of TWO people that provides the strongest bond, the most opportunity for depth and growth, the most stable environment for children, families and communities. It weakens us as a society when marriage models are flawed or fail.
If you "want it all"....don't get married or have children. I could care less if people want a hundred sex partners....but don't marry....and don't bring innocent children into the nightmare you're creating for yourself and bring them into the risk and drama that open marriage INVITES into your life.
Every time you add another person, another couple, fuzzy boundaries and wishful thinking....you increase RISK exponentially.
You think marriage with two people is hard??? Lord in Heaven....just start adding sex partners if you want a crash course for self destruct, shame and pain.
Can it be done successfully? Some say yes....but *I* don't believe it...I say....it's just another fantasy like the rest of affairs. I was hippie, and we grocked like the rest of the "Strangers in a Strange Land". What a delusion. This stuff was tried and failed. The only thing that differentiates swinging from affairs is the *honesty*.....and most of the time....that breaks down anyway!! It starts out honest until real feelings get in the way.....and they always get in the way, because we're WIRED that way.
But even if it didn't. Let's say two people agree to share their bodies but not their emotions and do it all above board....this is not a recipe for marriage...it's a recipe for tragedy, shame, denial and divorce. The essential problem with swinging is that it takes energy away from the primary relationship with spouse, family and children. It waters it down. It strains it. It undermines the intimacy.
It's next to impossible to share something as intimate as sex, and not develope affair-style biochemistry that acts on the marriage like ANY OTHER AFFAIR. You're kidding yourself if you think your biochemistry won't betray you.
I've spoken to many many people in this situation....and sadly....the results are as predictable as any other kind of affair. Somebody wants it....somebody gets talked into it. There is an agreement. It goes okay for a while....sometimes even a good long while. Then someone crosses the line....they start to hide their emotional involvement with one of their sex partners, or they get that "in love" biochemistry and there's no difference at all in the script....bla bla bla.
I honestly can't understand why people who want an open marriage, get married at all. Polyamory, open marriages, swinging....they are finally nothing but a selfish illusion that eventually blows up and creates shame and the destruction of families....JUST LIKE ANY OTHER kind of infidelity.
I've done extensive research on this subject. I have found absolutely NO evidence whatsoever that these models are sustainable long enough to raise children. In fact, the only research available says quite the opposite. The only place you get a real rosy picture of this lifestyle....is on the sites that promote it! Duh
It's a trap, a Brigadoon,....an insidious cancer like any other adultery that promises Utopia and delivers drama and heartbreak. There are probably a few die hard swingers who follow through....but for the majority of us....don't try this at home!! There are people who try to jump the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle....but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I agree with people who say that humans are probably not naturally monogamous. No siree....it takes strength of character to avoid temptation. It takes pain and forgiveness to move past the pitfalls and failures. But to me, that's precisely what makes marriage so special and unique...that we can rise above our primal roots and make a commitment that transcends even nature. That we care enough about one person to be MORE than our sexual yearnings for change. How cool is that?
Last edited by Pepperband; 07/25/11 05:53 PM.
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Infidelity harms a marriage, adultery harms a marriage, and THIS has harmed THIS marriage. However, the reasons WHY the M is harmed are different. Affairs involve some level of dishonesty on the part of one spouse, in order to get their needs met outside of the M. Was any of that involved here? What has happened here is that in the M, one spouse has apparently had a need met by the other, at the expense of the other. I think that something a bit more than using the usual MB A-busting techniques needs to be involved here. I would start by trying to find out why her H was so enthusiastic, before AND after, about indulging in the threesome. Has he asked for any more, BTW? I think you're right about digging for the reasons beneath and putting the focus on him. He is probably the more dishonest one and I would hesitate to call him a BS. However hbd does need to examine her own boundaries and weaknesses too. I appreciate she hasnt been overtly dishonest with her h, but she was ok with getting her needs met elsewhere. She has been brutally honest with us here (and with herself) and that will allow us to help her avoid more adultery on either part.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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