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It is hard to follow in part because I am having difficulty managing my fear and anxiety. I did not write the following. It was written by another MBer Star*Fish. This post is currently located on my Notable Posts Thread. It is the fear that paralyzes you, sends blood rushing through your veins, sours your stomach, and interrupts your sleep. It is the fear that gives away your power, your hope, and your forgiveness. It is fear that robs you of the active self and traps you in the role of patronizing enabler who will take them back at ANY cost...even if the price is too high. It is fear that keeps you from confronting and exposing. And fear that prevents you from enforcing your boundaries and having compassion for yourself.
Fear of abandonment.
Fear of rejection.
Fear of reaction....yours, theirs.
Fear of future...the unknown.
Fear of destitution and want.
Fear of failure.
Fear of losing.
Fear of loss.
Fear of solitude.
Fear of settling.
Fear of change.
Fear of lack of change.
Fear
Fear
Infidelity creates FEAR....and fear is crippling. Research shows us what we already know in our hearts....when we are fearful....we are unable to fire up the parts of our brains that "process" information on a logical, rational, spiritual level and create solutions that increase the odds for success in crises. When we are fearful....we don't use our neocortex....but instead, it is our limbic system which lights up our MRIs....our animal brains wired for "fight or flight".
There is no HOPE in our animal brains....because our identity, our souls, our compassion....don't reside there. You are only capable of conflict or escape when you are there....so you must find a quiet place to deal with your fears so that you can confront, expose, do all the things that overcoming infidelity entails....all the things that happiness entails. You must value yourself as well as protect yourself, without fear of losing your WS or enforcing boundaries.....because if you don't....all your fears will be realized anyway.
MB is not designed to trap you in a marriage where your feelings are crushed and disrespected or the vows of marriage are meaningless. It's designed to help you overcome fear and give you hope that marriages CAN recover from infidelity....but you must be brave and be willing to risk losing your WS in order to regain trust, fidelity, security.
You must be willing to see beyond your pain and take logical and systematic steps to undermine the affair and increase the stability and security of your marriage. That takes courage above pain. It takes the peacefulness of knowing you are strong enough to lose a self indulgent and unrepentant spouse or recover with a flawed, but motivated one.
Don't let your fear take back a spouse who isn't ready to do the hard work recovery after infidelity entails. It is an invitation for misery.
If you don't believe you CAN survive without your WS....you cannot do what you must do to ensure success.
Stop being fearful of their threats...they are just excuses to leave or be selfish.
Stop being fearful of their reactions....their reactions arise from their guilt...not your boundaries.
Stop being fearful of taking a stand....it's the only way to gain respect or trust.
Stop being fearful of being alone.....until you can stand on your own and risk losing them, you will NEVER know if they remain with you by choice. And you will never know if you want them or you NEED them.
And if you need them....even if they return....you are in trouble chere.
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The spouse you read about engaging in Plan A for 6 months was a man. The common period for Plan A with adultery involved for a woman is 6 weeks.
The reason for this is that Dr. Harley, a clinical psychologist believes and can provide evidence that men and women are physiologically, emotionally, and thus psychologically different, a d that not only are those differences okay, they are good for marriage.
Now, being in a same sex marriage, you very well can be just as different from your wife.
What I would suggest, is that you make sure that you adapt the articles as thus; follow the woman's timeline, adapt advice given to win back wayward wives, and follow behavior advice for betrayed wives for your adaptation.
Same sex marriage was not the issue, the simple recognition that men and women are different is, thus your deception may have lead to advice applicable to men. That is not going to work.I
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I do need to become self supporting so the dependency isn't driving anxiety, but with the relationship floundering and the one child's medical issues I have gotten to a really beaten down frantic state. I strongly urge you to seek legal counsel to become correctly informed as to the children's care/welfare. If your are legally married, as you say you are, being the SAHM you have the same legal rights/responsibilities as any other SAHM. Knowing for sure what will and will not be taken care of (should you separate or divorce) should relieve some of your anxiety. Not having the facts is frustrating, YES? Knowing the facts is VERY important. The correct facts, YES?
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Wow, this is really good stuff. It is so clear what I need to do and this lays it out so well. I need to get unstuck. Fear is keeping me in a place that no one can live in healthily or parent well from.
Heading out to take the munchkins to the pool. I need to clear my head before WS comes over for bedtime.
Thanks again, this is so much more helpful and direct than anything any of the counselors have said.
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Whatayear .... are there any OTHER facts surrounding your marriage that we might need to know?
Any addictions?
Abuse?
Nasty habits or really bad love busters?
Previous marriages?
Previous cheating?
Previous lying?
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I have consulted with a lawyer, he said that I should be able to get spousal support and child support. It's so little though compared to the cost of living here.
I have some significant abandonment and financial issues from my childhood and I think that is triggering almost irrational fear.
I need to be able to stand on my own 2 feet and model that for the kids. Not be a desperate doormat. Not live in fear and put up with being treated poorly. When I have recently set boundaries short of the affair ending (she won't go for that) there has actually been an improvement in how she behaves. That's something else I need to learn to do more effectively, I've let her do whatever she wanted and made excuses and that was a really bad precedent.
Now off to the pool.
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Here is a difficulty; your marriage is W/W, and her affair is W/M. I take it then, that she could be considered bisexual.
This complicates things a bit. If you were competing versus another woman, you could even the stakes more easily.
In fact, her bisexuality further complicates things because her required EPs would be; talk to no one.
Gut check time; will you be willing to continue in a marriage where you will never truly be safe from infidelity?
Sincerely reflect on this. You would be better off with a spouse who is exclusively homosexual to protect your marriage.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I do tend to be demanding and get angry more easily than I should. I think I seemed volatile and anxious at times. I probably turned to family more for support as DW seemed exhausted and removed. was not empathetic in addressing her depression, I probably made it worse. A quote from the LB link Each spouse complains about how thoughtless the other spouse is, without much awareness of his or her own thoughtlessness.
Lack of empathy helps makes thoughtlessness possible. Since we don't feel what other's feel, we tend to minimize the negative effects we have on others, and consider our thoughtlessness to be benign. An angry outburst is regarded by some as a creative expression. Disrespect is viewed as helping the other spouse gain proper perspective. And a demand is nothing more than encouraging a spouse to do what he or she should have done all along. None of these is seen as one spouse gaining at the other's expense, because the spouse who is inflicting the pain does not feel the pain. But whenever one spouse is the cause of the other's unhappiness, one thing's for sure -- Love Bank withdrawals are taking place.
I call all the ways that spouses are inconsiderate of each other's feelings Love Busters because that what they do -- they destroy the love that a husband and wife have for each other.
I've found that the most common Love Busters in marriage fall into six categories: Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, Angry Outbursts, Annoying Habits, Independent Behavior and Dishonesty
Have you had your anxiety medically treated with prescription anti/anxiety meds?
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Here is a difficulty; your marriage is W/W, and her affair is W/M. I take it then, that she could be considered bisexual.
This complicates things a bit. If you were competing versus another woman, you could even the stakes more easily.
In fact, her bisexuality further complicates things because her required EPs would be; talk to no one.
Gut check time; will you be willing to continue in a marriage where you will never truly be safe from infidelity?
Sincerely reflect on this. You would be better off with a spouse who is exclusively homosexual to protect your marriage. This is exactly why I feel pretty sure I lack the skill set to really offer sage advice.
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Whatayear .... are there any OTHER facts surrounding your marriage that we might need to know?
Any addictions?
Abuse?
Nasty habits or really bad love busters?
Previous marriages?
Previous cheating?
Previous lying? I grew up in an alcoholic home and my father was very verbally abusive. My mom was kind of a doormat and drank heavily herself for many years. She stayed out of fear of not being able to support the kids. I now realize that sometimes I am not as respectful in conversations as I should be when upset. I am actively working on that in a class and with a therapist. In my attempt to get her to address the depression I finally resorted to pointing out symptoms, she saw that as critical and disrespectful. I get that now and wish I had not behaved that way. No previous marriages, and no cheating that I am aware of. I probably put a lot of energy into the kids and extended family that should have gone into our relationship. WS grew up in a chaotic home, she and a sister were molested by a babysitter. That has been coming up for her in the past year, memories, her parents not addressing it afterwards, etc. Her sister reacted by not wanting to attend school and the authorities got involved, it was a mess. WS felt like she was pushed to the side and could only get attention by performing well, she has continued that by being a star student and performer at work as an adult. One child has ADD and it recently came up that the chaotic mornings and evenings typical when someone has ADD (now improved) were big triggers for WS wanting to "get out". She never said anything, I guessed and asked about it. She says that I am anxious and controlling. I didn't use to be but she has a point now. The past few years and the medical issues of the one child have really caused me to be socially isolated and probably needy. As WS felt overwhelmed and withdrew it has been really difficult for me. Like my abandoning parent she was physically there but not meeting my emotional needs, she probably feels the same way, we both felt angry. She keeps saying that if I give her more space I may be happier with what I get back. I may have adult ADD myself and am exploring that possibility with my doctor, one of the therapists suggested that it. I used to do very detailed work and was not very good at it over time. If I do have ADD and treat it and find more suitable work I may be much more successful. Another hugely fear based issue. Thanks again. I need to believe that I will be fine no matter what happens. I've been told that I hand too much power over to others, I need to learn to stop that. Really off to the pool now. The crew is all suited up and waiting.
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Here is a difficulty; your marriage is W/W, and her affair is W/M. I take it then, that she could be considered bisexual.
This complicates things a bit. If you were competing versus another woman, you could even the stakes more easily.
In fact, her bisexuality further complicates things because her required EPs would be; talk to no one.
Gut check time; will you be willing to continue in a marriage where you will never truly be safe from infidelity?
Sincerely reflect on this. You would be better off with a spouse who is exclusively homosexual to protect your marriage. This is exactly why I feel pretty sure I lack the skill set to really offer sage advice. I did date both men and women prior to our marriage, she always found that threatening. Prior to this she had never dated men. I see the point and seeing how easily she lies (all my fault that she needs to in her mind) scares me. Lots to think about.
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She says that I am anxious and controlling. Just pointing out that this is EXACTLY the way you entered the forum. Anxious and controlling. I see Al-Anon in your future. Save yourself a lot of therapy .... go to Al-Anon where "anxious/controlling" is nearly everyone's common denominator.
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WaY, let me delve further here.
Most leading relationship experts across several disciplines give the exact same advice for maintaining fidelity; avoid extended interaction with the opposite sex. This is due to our nature of attraction. You can easily flip that for same-sex relationships; avoid extended interaction of the same sex.
In either case, 50% of the population is to be excluded from interaction.
In the case of bisexuality, the case would be; avoid everyone.
The most simplified I have seen is; avoid anyone you are attracted to. However, this is folly.
You see, many people here have suffered infidelity due to a spouse allowing someone of the opposite sex to meet their needs. It was because of this - and not initial physical attraction - that the infidelity was possible.
Meeting needs develops attraction.
If your WW is bisexual, AND the bread-winner, no relationship with her will be safe, because persons of both genders can possibly draw her attraction. Because of her ability to be attracted to ANYONE, she cannot provide the basic Extraordinary Precaution of avoiding her attractive gender, and could only avoid those she is immediately attracted to.
She cannot provide the basic safety required to make a marriage work.
Beyond that, I myself have no off-the-cuff knowledge specific to your situation other than my earlier suggestions.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Whatayear, you have received a lot of good advice so far. I too don't feel qualified enough to offer any advice as I wouldn't know if in this case your WW would act as a typical WW, a WH or a bit of both.
Infidelity hurts and harms so I will offer suggestions whenevr I see I can help. Firstly, I would tell you that you really need to look at yourself and re-read the advice given to you on this thread.
Have you read other people's threads and gained knowledge that way?
Take care.
BW(Me)aka Scotty:37 DSx2: 10,12 DDAY2(PA)Nov27/09 Plan B Dec18/09 Personal R in works Scotty's THING  Newly Betrayed click herePraying for walls and doors. Thanx MM “Surviving is important. Thriving is elegant.” ? Maya Angelou PROGRESS NOT PERFECTION THANK YOU
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You are the second person to recommend AlAnon today, a friend suggested it since there is so much overlap between depressed folks and alcoholics. Way cheaper than therapy.
The kids were out of control while she was here. She doesn't want to see that they are in pain and will suggest things like leaving the table until they are less grumpy. They went into this with so many needs unmet due to her depression. Right now the schedule is 2 evenings a week for bedtime, so like 90 min, and a day on the weekend, they just never seem to get enough. She rarely calls - doesn't like to talk on the phone from work and doesn't like to call from AP's house. She keeps saying that they will adjust and she wouldn't come back even if AP wasn't in the picture. She was talking about coming back and still wearing her ring for months, then she was very angry and I think that was when the affair really started up.
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Question about when we are both together with the kids - they beg her for more time. Since she is more available every other weekend when AP has his kids they will try to think of fun things to invite her to do. She often looks guilty or overwhelmend or looks to me for rescue. They will say things like they want their family back together. Tonight one asked if she had a baby with someone else what her relation to the baby would be. I generally try to stay out of it, is that the right approach?
The psychologist suggested that we do bedtime jointly 2 times per week to give the kids more time and have her maybe bond with us a bit more, she was also trying to "fill up her dance card" as she put it. Is this a mistake?
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The spouse you read about engaging in Plan A for 6 months was a man. The common period for Plan A with adultery involved for a woman is 6 weeks.
The reason for this is that Dr. Harley, a clinical psychologist believes and can provide evidence that men and women are physiologically, emotionally, and thus psychologically different, a d that not only are those differences okay, they are good for marriage.
Now, being in a same sex marriage, you very well can be just as different from your wife.
What I would suggest, is that you make sure that you adapt the articles as thus; follow the woman's timeline, adapt advice given to win back wayward wives, and follow behavior advice for betrayed wives for your adaptation.
Same sex marriage was not the issue, the simple recognition that men and women are different is, thus your deception may have lead to advice applicable to men. That is not going to work.I I agree a lot of MB advice is gender neutral, but EPs and Plan A will be a sticking point here. Working out a timeline for plan A will be really complicated for this poster. Dr H says women need more time to be wooed back than men, hence the six month timeline given to men to win back their WW. However he also says that women who try to plan A for longer than a few weeks tend to suffer mentally and physically. Women struggle to endure the beating their emotions take in plan A. This poster has problems with anxiety. A lengthy plan A would be too tough for her to get through in my opinion. As for the EPs - I wouldnt know where to start, they would both need to turn into hermits, from the sounds of things. I think she needs to speak to Dr H. As he devised the Plan A/Plan B model he is the best person to adapt it to these unusual circumstances. Maybe the EPs wouldnt concentrate so much on gender but maybe, dont allow too personal conversations or something like that. More radical honesty so if they do get to feel attraction for someone else so it can be nipped in the bud. If it's beyond Pep's experience, it is definitely beyond mine, so I vote for Dr H.
Last edited by indiegirl; 07/30/11 04:16 AM.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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Even before I'd heard of Plan A people recommended similar ideas. I just have a hard time switching off my anxiety about the kids, money and being alone. The specifics in the thread are very useful.
The medical issue of the one child makes it unadvisable that they be in full time care, excess energy demands are to be avoided according to the doctors. That is a big source of anxiety about going back to work full time. The health issues can cause developmental issues and it is all very fragile. I worry about having little good time with them since the fragile kid tends to be exhausted by dinnertime even coming home right after school and then behavior falls apart. She says that things can continue as they are for a year but the medical issue is managed not fixable. There are so many issues that can't be controlled at all that I have such a hard time with a selfish parent in the mix. I'm not even sure that the depression is gone, a few months would not be much time even with out AP in the picture. If she was not with AP she would be with the kids more. She seems more concerned with not feeling too guilty and keeping her secret than the impact of it on the kids who love her or on me (she keeps saying that it's not an affair that she wasn't living here, and that X, Y and Z acquaintances agree that it is not an affair. Of course they all think it is a terrible idea but she only focuses on the part that supports her not on the impact on others. We all went into this running on empty after her untreated depression. I hate how she things spending 8-10 hours per week with them is great when she spends 5 hours just at the gym and more time than that commuting.
I've been doing some more reading on the ideas of Plan A, can anyone give me more specific ideas about how our outing this weekend one on one should go? I get that people are unsure about the duration of Plan A, etc. I get that I need to move on and work on myself. One therapist had talked about differentiation but it's really spelled out much more clearly in the linked thread. But for this weekend, what should the conversation look like? I've tended to make her feel guilty in the past and that as she put it "just makes me want to get away from you more". I don't want to feel like I keep making things worse.
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I've tended to make her feel guilty in the past and that as she put it "just makes me want to get away from you more". I don't want to feel like I keep making things worse. Thats a very standard reaction to Plan A. She feels guilty because - she is guilty. She tries to make that your fault. She doesnt want you to be nice, she wants to demonise and blame you. Plan A is about not letting her do that. Be unapologetically wonderful, fun and missable. Her guilt is valid and it is your ally. She can deal with her guilt by stopping the A. Dont let her shrug you off. Let all her nonsense slip off you like water off a duck's back.
What would you do if you were not afraid?
"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.
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The hard thing is that I was right to be concerned that she seemed overwhelmed by the kids. Her commitment to their/our wellbeing wasn't there. Maybe the depression and stress got to be too much for her to see a way out of it but she freely admits that she was at least somewhat depressed for 5-6 years. That is not ok for little kids but she won't talk about that. I wanted better and now they get little and I get nothing. She said once that this is my "consequence" for her unhappiness.
I read about midlife crises on another thread and even the things she says are the same. It's so frustrating and sad. I have to be less demanding in any case and to learn better boundaries. It's just really hard to feel like you are in competition. I am a bit older than her and he is my age. I was much more established and made a lot of money when we met, AP is quite wealthy. I was a bridge away from her family of origin that she wanted space from, he is a bridge away from us and she hoped that his being a man would get approval from her mom. (It didn't, which surprised her.)
She does love the kids but can't deal with them well. They are angry and never get enough of her now and every time it goes badly I feel like it pushes her back to nondemanding AP. Makes me want to be controlling with the kids which isn't fair or right. On some level this was too much for her without her changing, she was great with 1 or even 2 very young kids, she loves babies. She tried a parenting class but could never figure out how/when to do the homework. I always wanted to be a parent and this is all such a mess.
How can I switch away from all of these feelings I have about the situation as a parent and just be someone fun to hang out with? I feel like she is lost and I have become someone I don't even recognize.
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