Wow, that wayward fog link really hits it on the head.

You think this stuff is all so personal.

The lack of empathy or thinking of the feelings of others is just not there, at least now, sometimes I forget and am shocked by some of the statements.

Lots to think about.

Actually, I just made a connection that I hadn't. I didn't get why if she said that she cared about the kids why she wouldn't do more to meet their needs, prioritize them higher with time, etc. She doesn't want to. It would cut into time with AP. She likes to talk about it because she thinks it sounds good. She'd rather read a book on helping your kids through divorce then actually be with her kids. This is one more evening a week than AP spends with his kids so she must be parent of the year. Oye.

If/when they emerge from the wayward fog does the empathy return or was it just smoke and mirrors all along? Were their givers and takers ever in balance?

I've said why didn't you tell me how unhappy you were so that we could make things better for everyone? I guess it was easier to walk away to someone else then give up the idea that things are magically perfect or to have to communicate and take a risk of still not getting. I thought that the depression was the problem and that it needed to be addressed before things could get better, not at all sure I was right about that since harping on that just pushed her away more. She immediately went to AP to cry on his shoulder and be loaned books on divorce and kids so this had to be coming for a while.

Right now I can't tell if this is someone we should even want back or not but I'd like to be the one with the option.

It depends on if depression was a symptom, or an underlying cause.

Depression is also a symptom of waywardness, especially in women.

I think it was at least partly a cause, dealing with the kids used to overwhelm her and she'd frequently end up in tears. She may also have ADD according to screening tools, she tried meds but they didn't work. She seems to have problems thinking in the moment and thinking things through. Also issues with time and money. This is a perfect storm of badness re: those issues. I think trying to address the ADD made the depression worse last fall, she did try working on it when I asked. Not sure why the depression was different to her, that was a huge power struggle. According to her doc, affairs are really common with people with ADD and depression, it's a way they try to self medicate or get away when they can't cope and don't want to get effective help. I asked what her psychiatrist said about the affair, she said she couldn't remember so it probably wasn't favorable.

I do think at the end she was planning to go. There was a big uptick in crying suddenly, and I think it was grief in Jan and Feb.

The new doc got her exercising regularly in Dec and it did help with the depression. One of the kids noticed that "mommy is smiling more but only when she talks about people who aren't us". That put my anxiety into the stratosphere and I probably nailed the coffin shut with my "freaking out". All I wanted was for my kids to not be getting depressed by being around someone crying all of the time. I wanted her to be in a place where she wasn't always sad or angry and we could work on making things better.

Plan A and Plan B will give you options. You need to get them to the point where the A breaks up or their feelings for you return and they think 'what have I done' and are willing to do whatever it takes. That's whatever it takes to make a GREAT relationship, not an ok one, keep your boundaries high.

Dr H says plan A does it sometimes but most of the time plan B is required too. You get them all hooked on you with sweet memories in Plan A, then when they are frozen out by you in plan B they miss the needs you had been meeting.

You refuse to meet any needs, have any contact until they end things with the AP.

While in plan B, you are not exposed to her toxic behaviour, so you can grieve and heal. You are exhausted right now with the whole 'Am I doing too much - or not enough?' in Plan B the focus is totally on you.

When you get a bit stronger in Plan B you will be able to make better decisions about your standards and Plan B's effect on her will hopefully give you an either way option.

She is talking about switching jobs to reduce stress and hours but I think she is doing it to protect the AP, another weird twist. One option is quite near her current office, another possibility is across town. She has kind of a dependant personality and isn't very skilled at lying, I'm less concerned that she'd continue to have affairs than that she won't come back at all. When she was a homebody and the kids were small she was the happiest she'd ever been. We were all happy. Had she never gone back to school and spent most of her time away from us we'd probably be happy still. I didn't realize the danger and wish that I had done a lot differently.

I've found an Al Anon meeting to go to and signed up for a yoga class. Baby steps but it is something.

I'm having a hard time managing time and my anxiety, am going to try a written schedule where we get out every day and see people often.

I really appreciate the feedback from everyone, the more direct the better, I think it's stress or something but I feel a bit more dense than usual lately.

Will try to implement the being pleasant part of Plan A tomorrow. I want to start behaving in a way that I feel proud of, not angry or desperate or without boundaries.

Amazing stuff, keep it up!

Fwiw, b/c of the different type of dynamics here, I would talk personally to the counseling center.

Men and women behave simply quite different from one another. What might work with a woman won't work with a man and vice versa, and you said your partner had some masculine tendencies right?

I would continue posting here as you're getting good advice, but maybe also consider getting the professional counseling at MB counseling center.

Peachy is right, there are just a few too many twists for me, its too easy to overlook something in this situation, so you need Dr H.

It sounds like you're doing great though and have the right attitude. Keep posting for support, though. I think this forum can help you on the gender neutral stuff like how to plan A, if not the timeline necessarily.

I would say make sleeping and eating well priority number one.

Getting hold of Dr H priority no 2

Then once you have a plan, you will feel a lot better...

Going out together was weird. If we didn't talk about the kids or her job she seemed really nervous and awkward. She did ask the sitter to come back next Sunday so we'll try again. A reached out to an old friend of hers who is going to try to get through to her.

She had mentioned a while back that she was ok with me going to an appointment with her psychiatrist to talk about her depression and ADD. She has an appointment tomorrow and I asked if I could go and she said ok. Any ideas on how to handle? I have talked to him on the phone and emailed before. He seems like a nice guy and said that affairs are common when people have untreated depression and ADD, the chemicals of a new relationship are like self medicating.

Today is one of the kids' birthdays. She woke up this am and was confused about the time and just kept asking where Mommy was. It was really sad for me. She did call on her way into work (I had asked her to), she doesn't like to speak with them on the phone from AP's house.

I realized that he must drop her off to commute in separately, one of the kids had seen her on the subway while on a field trip and she lied about it being her. We saw her later that day in the same clothes and she was outraged at the "insinuation". This was before I knew. Feel so dumb in retrospect.

I will keep to plan A for a while and will reach out to the counseling center, that is a great idea. I don't want to sink to her level of bad behavior or make her feel more justified. I really am seriously questioning how, even if she wanted to come back, it could ever work. So many lies, it's all such an energy suck and just bad character.

The little one asked her to stay here tonight so she doesn't get tense before rushing off. Will be interesting. She had told the bday girl that she'd take the day off then apparently didn't follow through and ask for it. Of course she tells the psychologist that the doctors are wrong and she has no real ADD issues, it's just all in my head. I am starting to see that even if she has those challenges it's up to her to care to do something about it. We can't care enough for her.

Ack. Off to do something fun with the kids. I can only be the best Mommy that I can be.

So last night was up and down with the kid's bday. She was very nostalgic looking at pix of the bday child as a baby. One of the kids had asked her to stay over, so she did. The littlest tried to negotiate with her for one night here, one night away. It was clear that she had really thought about it and practiced, it was heartbreaking. So she talked over her and said, I see you on X and Y and Z days. She ignores the feelings in the moment but the kids do seem to get to her.

Back in March she had given me contact info for her psychiatrist that she was seeing for depression. She had invited me to speak with him or to go to an appointment. I had spoken with him and emailed, he wanted to get more perspective and feedback. She had her first appointment since May today (which he said was way too long) and I ended up going with her. She had lied and said that she saw him in June and told him about the affair, but she hadn't. He asked me a bunch of questions and she seemed really angry and tense.

We had coffee afterwards and I said how hurt I was and that I would do a lot differently if I could. I said that she needed to cut off her affair and move back home and give our relationship a chance. (Not sure if I did that right). She said she was very unhappy before, not just because of the depression, and couldn't commit to forever but that she would still go to the counselor with me.

I just got an email where she said that she was considering trying "my proposal" for 6 months and that I need to give her space to think. It's so funny, I was thinking on the way home that I don't want to deal with her undertreating her depression forever, given what bad shape she was in in March, to not go for 3 months is not a sign to me of someone who wants to be well and happy. So I have pretty mixed feelings. On the one hand she is saying mean stuff when she feels closer to me or the kids but she is a lot more thoughtful and helpful and she seems to be getting better slowly. I was surprised to just get the email and haven't responded yet.

Thoughts/advice on where to go from here?

Good, these are the consequences she must face for betraying her family. I forget what you said about doing exposure? Do the kids know? They should be told in an age appropriate way if they are over four.



IC's get criticised a lot on here, but he sounds pretty smart. Most just let the client lie to them.



How big of her. However that is unacceptable - no contact with other man has to be for life NO DEBATE. Also dont give a wayward space because they ask for it, they usually mean space for the affair. Plan A her mercilessly for the length of time YOU decide to, until she agrees NC. If she doesnt before your Plan A time runs out then Plan B her and leave her out in the cold to enjoy the loss of the chances she missed.

I do think you need Dr H! For a start I am tempted to write off her depression as the usual depression of a wayward. But I dont have a phd and her phychiatrist sounds like he's been around the block.

Another thing is I think your plan A timing could do with Dr H's input. It is critical as too much chasing is off putting to WH's but necessary for WWs. There is also your lovebank and mental health to consider. Could you call the radio show?

It sounds pretty positive on the whole. She loves the family life and having you waiting for her. But she likes having her needs met by OM too. She actually thinks that you will stay on the backburner for her. Her pretty little bubble is about to get burst isnt it?

You dont need to decide if you want her right now, probably best to do that in plan B where you will get some perspective. Or after she starts standing up and being more committed to her relationship.

If she wants to come back to her lovely home she has to write an NC letter that you approve of and mail for her - dont trust her to do it.

I think you will find though that she wont go for this and you will end up doing plan b to knock some sense into her.

Will try to call the radio show.

Agree with everything you've written, she wants to have her cake and eat it too and not feel too bad about it.

I had said a year, 6 months to me sounded like hedging her bets that he would likely be available.

So many lies about this affair to me and the kids, I discover more each day. And she said that she told the psychiatrist and he clearly was taken aback. I wonder if this is the only thing she has lied about? The guilt seems to be getting to her more. The kids are pretty merciless.

If she does come back and the psychologist/counselor we've been seeing feels free to address relationship issues, she is very smart too. Until now that has been decreed off the table.

I just want to be happy. Don't want games. My mom was right, as my interest is waning all of a sudden I'm hearing from her. With kids, this just isn't ok. Grow up already.

What is in your head is a huge string of disrespectful judgements which you have justified by attaching the labels psychological diagnoses to.

Let's leave the complications of her psychological issues to the psychologists and psychiatrists, eh?