Just wanted to start out by saying that I recently found MB, already spend a few days reading through the various posts. I have also ordered His Needs, Her Needs. Still getting used to the abbreviations and such...

I find it necessary to bring up some history prior to marriage, since it makes up our character and definitely put doubt deep in my heart.

My wife and I met through mutual friends in early 2007. I was getting out of a heart breaking relationship which had serious trust issues, lying, me finding inappropriate emails, txts, etc� and she just ended a relationship of her own. The next few months, we saw each other during outings with friends and really hit it off. We started wanting to spend time just together, going away on weekend trips, having dinners, movies, etc� We practically disappeared for several months from everyone�s radar. During that time we made a decision to live together, one which I regret till this day. Since I have been on my own since 18 and we have been spending every day together, it only made sense.

Slowly, we started having more and more arguments about her receiving txts at all hours of the day from guy friends, txts from ex-bfs, her wanting to all of a sudden have some time with just her friends, her wanting more independence, etc� This triggered me wanting to check her txts & email from time to time. I have always been the jealous type and was still carrying around the mistrust from the previous relationship. We had many many talks, most of which led to her wanting me to trust her and not think of her just like the rest/others. The more I would trust, the more she would want to do, which just escaladed our arguments to an unbearable point. Right about the same time, she told me she needs to go to her home town in Europe for family reasons and also to clear her head. Her parents confirmed this, yet I was completely against it. My thinking was taking a trip alone wouldn�t help our relationship but would open up doors for a possible disaster. A few weeks after she came back, I stumbled upon an email which contained photos of her making out with a guy from her home town. The guy turned out to be her first crush/love from her childhood. This completely crushed me, even worse than before and made me question everything. She moved out, back to her parents.

I had very strong feelings for her, which opened the door to keep in touch, txting and emailing here and there. The emails went from sorry, to miss you, to want you back. About 4-5 months later, we decided get back together with all seriousness this time. Fast forward a bit, she moved in, we got married and had a son. During the pregnancy, we were solid, relied on each other for everything. I didn�t allow myself to have any outings with friends, so she wouldn�t feel left out; we took 1 or 2 vacations together, complete dedication from me. As our son was getting closer to 1yr, she returned to college for her degree and some of our previous arguments started coming back into play. Txts from guys in her classes and running late dropping her friend(s) off rather than coming straight home to her H and son. More and more, I started feeling like a baby sitter or house keeper rather than a H. What hurt me the most is the fact that I too could have offered to drop co-workers off, go for a drink with friends, yet I chose to go straight home and be with my family.

Time was flying by pretty fast. We had very different schedules. I would be leaving for work before they are awake, after work most days she would be leaving for night classes or gym. With our son getting closer to 2, he started slowly staying weekends at grandparents home so that we can have some time to ourselves. I�ve always believed in the fact that married couples should go out at night (restaurants, lounges, clubs) together, rather than apart with just their friends. This worked out pretty good for a while until one night, we had a few friends over, we�re all getting ready to go out to a lounge and she suddenly changes her mind about going but insists that I go ahead and enjoy myself. Just a week or two later, she tells me she wants to go grab a drink with just her girlfriend (even though I have no plans, since the weekends are pretty much the only time we have for each other). Tells me it�s not a big deal since I went without her just recently. This went from once in a while, to every other weekend. Her explanation would be that she just needed some time from me; that she can�t be with me 24/7, etc� I always laughed at these explanations, since because of our schedules; we barely saw each other as is. I actually happen to be the type of guy who enjoys spending my free time with my wife, either alone or doing something with friends. I don�t see a need to not invite her somewhere, or something I wouldn�t be able to do with my friends with her present.

These problems drove us into a separation under the same roof. She started slowly just falling asleep in our son�s room to sleeping there every night. Saying it�s easier for her to quickly give him milk so he goes back to sleep, rather than from our bedroom. January of this year, I found out about a gym credit we can get from our health insurance company. We just needed to meet the min. hours and submit the time sheets from gym. I received the sheets from the gym, showing her at the gym only once for the year. Yet she was �going� to the gym at least one or twice a week after I come from work. I confronted her right away. At first she said the scanner at gym was broken and some other non sense. Then said this was her only way to get some time for herself and not cause a fight with me. I asked her what she did during that time, she said hung out with friends. While I sat at home with our son after a full days work.

I didn�t think it could get any worse, until I walked into our bedroom with her trying to hide something. It was a second prepaid phone she had opened on her own. She quickly smashed it and threw it out and later explained that she was just txting her guy friends from school and just didn�t want another fight with me. She promised before to cut her unnecessary (not school related) guy friend txting and this was her solution. I asked her how could she, with me and our son sitting in the other room. Was this stupid txting more important than your family? Instead of creating a huge fight like I usually would, I went in the other room and continued what I was doing. The next 2 weeks I continued to do everything required of me and waiting for some kind of sincere apology, some kind of remorse, explanation, anything� All I got was an act like nothing happened. On a Thursday evening, sitting at home with our son waiting for her to return from school, I get a message. �I�m dropping off my friend, will be late a bit�. I didn�t respond. She came home 1.5hrs later. That weekend (week of June 1) I packed all my stuff, put it to storage and moved to my parents.

At the time of this posting, we are still separated. She is living with our son at our apartment rental and I�m at my parent�s house. She had some savings which she already blew, she decided to max out her cards and just let it go to settlement. While this whole time I continued to buy groceries, food, baby products for them. She refuses to move to her parents home while we work this out (too proud), instead she got a night/weekend job in a restaurant/lounge. Most talks we�ve had result in �you did that, no u did that�, bringing up the past lies, pain, etc� Tells me she doesn�t think she can give me what I want, making it sound like I have these out of this world demands. She is willing to go to marriage counseling, yet wants me to do all the research (where, who, what). I am completely torn apart, in pain, my heart bleeding mostly because of our son and I don�t know what to do.

Thank you for listening...

Hey rvm, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sorry to say, your story sounds like all too many others like it on the boards here.

I might suggest you ask the moderators to move this thread to the "Surviving an Affair" forum. It's quite apparent to me that your wife has very poor boundaries and is wayward in the extreme. You'll get a lot of good feedback and help from the veterans on that forum.

On a personal note, please know that you can heal -- regardless of how things work out in your marriage -- if you read the articles here, talk to the others on the forums and heed the advice of the folks who have been here a while and know the MB principles inside and out.

It's been said that Marriage Builders is the best club nobody wants to join. Again, welcome!

Oh my, what a mess. My suggestion would be to first accept that your wife is a serial cheater who is profoundly manipulative and sneaky. Until you accept that, you are in danger. She has been dangerous since the start of your relationship with her untrustworthy behavior around other men.
Your instincts were very correct about how dangerous this was to your marriage but you allowed her to manipulate you into silence by accusing you of being "jealous" and not trusting her. Of course you shouldn't trust an untrustworthy person.

I am pointing this out because if you can't understand how you were manipulated and played here you will always be vulnerable in the future.

In your situation, I would strongly suggest you file for divorce, get legal protection, and get that child in your home with you and your parents. Your child is not safe with her and her revolving boyfriends so protecting your child MUST COME FIRST.

Will your parents help you with child care?

Your next step should be to tell her you can't ever consider a future with her unless she makes a radical 180 degree change in her lifestyle. She must cease with ALL opposite sex friendships and live a completely transparent, INTEGRATED lifestyle. Otherwise, you are not safe. You will damn yourself to a life of hell.

She likely won't agree to change, and if she doesnt', you are better off without her. But get your kid away from her. She is very crazy and very destructive and that is how little kids end up getting hurt.

In the meantime, get checked out for STDs and do not have sex with her. Her parents and every one else should know all about her affairs. The more people who know, the better. Hopefully someone will get through to her.

Bingo!! I know that you are young, son, but you now have an obligation to protect your little boy. You cannot abandon him. You need to go get him and bring him to your home. Allow her to have visitations AT YOUR HOME in the presence of you and your parents. Just go get him and then keep him while you file for divorce. But don't leave your child at the mercy of a revolving door of scumbag boyfriends.

Bad boyfriends often abuse children of partners

By DAVID CRARY , AP National Writer
Sunday, November 18, 2007
NEW YORK (AP) - An ever-increasing share of America's children grow up in homes without both biological parents, leaving them nearly 50 times as likely to die of child abuse, according to research.

In many cases, the alleged or convicted perpetrator is the boyfriend of the child's mother - men thrust into father-like roles which they tragically fail to embrace.

Many scholars and front-line caseworkers interviewed by The Associated Press see the abusive-boyfriend syndrome as part of a broader trend that deeply worries them, particularly as an ever-increasing share of America's children grow up in homes without both biological parents.

"This is the dark underbelly of cohabitation," said Brad Wilcox, a sociology professor at the University of Virginia. "Cohabitation has become quite common, and most people think, 'What's the harm?' The harm is we're increasing a pattern of relationships that's not good for children."

There are many other studies that, taken together, reinforce the concerns. Among the findings:

• Children living in households with unrelated adults are nearly 50 times as likely to die of inflicted injuries as children living with two biological parents, according to a study of Missouri abuse reports published in the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics in 2005.

• Children living in stepfamilies or with single parents are at higher risk of physical or sexual assault than children living with two biological or adoptive parents, according to several studies co-authored by David Finkelhor, director of the University of New Hampshire's Crimes Against Children Research Center.

• Girls whose parents divorce are at significantly higher risk of sexual assault, whether they live with their mother or their father, according to research by Robin Wilson, a family law professor at Washington and Lee University.

"All the emphasis on family autonomy and privacy shields the families from investigators, so we don't respond until it's too late," Wilson said. "I hate the fact that something dangerous for children doesn't get responded to because we're afraid of judging someone's lifestyle."

Census data leaves no doubt that family patterns have changed dramatically in recent decades as cohabitation and single-parenthood became common. Thirty years ago, nearly 80 percent of America's children lived with both parents. Now, only two-thirds of them do. Of all families with children, nearly 29 percent are now one-parent families, up from 17 percent in 1977.

The net result is a sharp increase in households with a potential for instability, and the likelihood that adults and children will reside in them who have no biological tie to each other.

comprehensive article in entirety at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/19/AR2007111900007.html

@GloveOil - thank you for your input. I have talked to a few mutual friends, her family and mine and I for the most part am hearing the same responses. First and foremost that it's an age thing, too young and irresponsible. I know for a fact that while growing up, she was one of two girls in a group of kids growing up in her town. She reminds me of this when explaining why she bonds with guys better then girls when making friends. Is this really an explanation or simply an excuse?

I have done some techie snooping and thus far have not seen anything more then laughs and giggles amongst friends. There isn't any particular one number that constantly stands out, no in the middle of night calls.

I didn't abandon my son, far from it. It was the hardest decision I ever had to make. I left in hopes that she would realize what she had and come to her senses. Yes we're a young couple (as she likes to say), but you cant have a marriage and the single life all in one. My son has been spending lots of time with me during this separation.

She reminds me of me when I was in my teens and early twenties. The huge difference (which i keep telling her) was that I did not have a wife and child waiting at home. She is willing to go to marriage therapy, I just don't know where to even begin.

Jealousy is a reaction to a THREAT in marriage. The issue was not YOU, but her. You wouldn't have felt jealous if she did not behave untrustworthy. Your wife was not like the others, she was WORSE than the others.

It really doesn't matter why. What matters is that she STOPS if she wants to remain married. The only man she should be bonded to is her husband.

And if you moved and your son lives with her, you have abandoned him. You are not there to protect him and most courts will frown on that. You will NOT be viewed favorably especially in light of the fact that you know your wife is very destructive and irresponsible. I would go get the boy and bring him to live with you and your parents where he will be safe.

Start by getting your child out of harms way and then give her an ultimatum about changing her lifestyle. If she won't make a dramatic change her irresponsible, reckless lifestyle, counseling will not help, but harm. Most counselors are so destructive to marriage that many would tell you that your wife has a right to run around like an alley cat in heat and accuse you of being "controlling" and "oppressive." That would give your wife validation to continue on her destructive path.

Give your wife a chance to straighten up and earn your forgiveness and if she doesn't, you should divorce her. You will be better off without her.

@MelodyLane - thank you so much for taking the time to read and reply. I did want to add a few positive steps which she did take on her own.

One of the reasons we got back together after her Europe trip was because she made a call to him in front of me and put an end to any txts, emails for good. She told him that they can never talk again and would never return in person without me. I have never seen anything since.

Since our serious problems of having guy friends started, she did cut everyone out and now only has one or two from her class and one girlfriend from school as well. Seems that she became best friends with this girl and whenever she ran late she would be dropping her off and/or talking with her. I have met her a few times. This doesn't include the prepaid phone which she has yet to come clean about.

I am standing strong on my principles, yet do not want to discourage her if she is willing to change and make this work.

Where does the law stand about me being able to take my son and have him stay with me? She has told me she's against that even though she barely stays with him, afternoons grandparents pick our son so she can go to class. Now they are also taking him a few nights and weekends since she started to work a week ago.

re: couselors - i have read this over and over and is the biggest reason i'm so hesitant and having so much trouble finding one. "controlling" is exactly what she calls me. anyone have any recommendations for a therapist in the NYC tri-state area by chance? I tried calling the MB office for a referral, they unfortunately do not have any.

Well, she is going to have to make RADICAL changes to make this work. Her entire lifestyle is not condusive to a marriage. Her going out and acting single would have to stop. I would not praise her for little baby steps when those steps will not change your marriage. It will take HUGE CHANGES. So I would find out now if she is willing to make RADICAL 180 degree changes.

Let her know you are willing to give her an opportunity to EARN your forgiveness, but it will take ALOT. Otherwise, you are wasting your time. Again, baby steps are not going to cut it and are a distraction from really fixing your marriage.

Is she willing to do this?

1. no more nights apart or going out without each other - create a healthy, integrated lifestyle

2. complete transparency - cell phone passwords, etc

3. no more opposite sex friendships - no friendships of which you don't approve

4. complete honesty about her affair<s> � passing a polygraph

5. commit to a program of recovery that restores the romantic love in your marriage

Tell her "this is what it will take to keep me in this marriage." Whether your marriage ends up with success or failure will depend almost entirely on her willingness and ability to make radical changes. Her lifestyle must become absolutely transparent, holding nothing back. She is in no position to negotiate when it comes to extraordinary precautions, because those precautions are designed to prevent another affair and help you feel safe. She must also meet your emotional needs in a way that until now she has failed. Unless she makes a 180 degree turn in her approach to what it means to be a wife, your marriage won't recover, it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage.

You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by taking this approach, because if she won't do these things, you will have lost nothing except an abusive marriage.

He is your child so you can take him anywhere. But you really need to get legal help. I would pick the child up, let her know you are keeping him for a few days and then contact an attorney on Monday. She has no legal right to keep the child from you.


My recommendation? Don't go to marriage counseling. Most are biased against men and are not pro-marriage. They don't have the slightest idea how to save marriages and have a higher personal divorce rate than the general population. Until your wife agrees to come clean and stop her destructive lifestyle, there is very little cause for any kind of counseling anyway. We, on this forum, can guide you through recovery IF she will agree to your conditions. Until she does that, this is a non starter.

How do you respond/explain to a person who has and will tell me I'm trying to control her life? For the longest, she had me convinced that I'm just some sort of control freak and that this is not normal.

Also where do you draw a line between having interactions with the opposite sex for school/work and that overlapping into more/uncomfortable grounds?

@MelodyLane - in regards to your recommended steps, if we do go that route, how do we find middle ground since marriage is also about compromise? I wouldn't want her to feel like she can't do anything at all.

She has never kept me away from him, quite the opposite always wanted me to come by after work, take him for the weekend. In regards to our son, i truly see and believe that we both undoubtedly love him. She just has so much PRIDE and wanting to be ms. independent... in my opinion that is really the core of the disease...

I know. She has manipulated you for a long time. You tell her you have no control OVER HER, but you do have control over YOUR BOUNDARIES and this [your conditions] is what you need to feel safe. And she either voluntarily respects your boundaries or you are not interested.

If she whines she is being "controlled" tell her "I guess that is your answer, see ya!"


If she has to split hairs then she is not serious.


Marriage is not about compromise. It most certainly is not. You don't compromise with a terrorist, you protect yourself from them. Marriage is all about each person being able to be safe. And up until now you have not been safe.

Your wife can do anything she wants. You don't have the power to control her. She can take your conditions or leave them. But if she wants to be married to you, she will have to practice extraordinary precautions, which are NOT negotiable.

If she won't do those things, you are not safe with her and this will be your future.

But her love has not prevented her from being reckless and irresponsible. That is not a safe environment for kids.

If she says "you are trying to control me!!!"

Tell her:

"oh no! I would never want to control you. You must agree to these conditions voluntarily. I can only control my own boundaries. You can choose to respect them or not."

There are LOTS of things she can do as a married woman. Like........act married. Married women go out with their husbands and create a life WITH THEM, not without them. So, she can do that if she wants to be married.

If she wants to be single, she should be single. That is her choice. But you have choices too. You can make a choice to not stay in a marriage with a very selfish, manipulative, independent, abusive woman. Choices work both ways.

She wants you to come by after work and take him on weekends so she would be "free" to pursue her independent lifestyle and still have you paying the bills.

If she really wants to be ms. independent, then let her be, WITHOUT YOUR CHILD. That is HER choice.

Not agreeing to your WW going out with others and shirking her responsibilities at home is NOT controlling.

Most women will throw out the "controlling" word to shut their husbands up. They KNOW that it works, because you don't want to be controlling. You worry about being "controlling" because you think that is close to abusive. Well, you are NOT being controlling, so stop believing what she told you.