See, I don't see this as a demand at all. I see it is a complaint coupled with a truthful statement. If a spouse is prepared to leave the marriage if the other refuses to meet his needs, shouldn't that be conveyed? In my case, if my XH had told me he was leaving over this, I would have taken it much more seriously. Are you saying the alternative is to give her an opportunity to meet the need and then just LEAVE when she doesn't do it?


I don't see how it is a lovebuster. An ultimatum is a stated condition whose rejection will result in a direct action, in this case, the very possible end of the marriage.

So, are you saying he should not TELL HER honestly he is not willing to stay in the marriage under those conditions? Because I wouldn't agree with that.

Either way, Hill, are you prepared to back that statement (threat, ultimatum, boundary, take your pick) up? If your choices are leave, v or no sex, which would you chose? Because this may very well end up being like the solution to the domestic support issues that can't be resolved...whoever its important to, has to do it. And if you're not willing to follow through...then don't say it. It destroys your credibility and does seem like an empty threat. In the past, you've said things that you didn't really mean....and that's something you have to stop doing. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Otherwise bite your tongue, duct tape your mouth shut, whatever it takes.

Hold the phone there. Are you suggesting he should be willing to stay in a marriage with a spouse who refuses to have sex with him? No responsible marriage counselor would advise that. Dr Harley does not advise that. The issue at hand is whether he tells her it will end the marriage or if he follows the plan in When to Call it Quits and just separates after attempting to get her to meet his needs.

What are you suggesting exactly? How long EXACTLY should he endure being deprived of sex?

And by the way, I very much DO see Prisca's point and can see how it fits with the article she posted.

Absolutely not! I'm glad he's giving her fair warning, unlike your H, so she's not blindsided like you were. My H has denied me for 7 years now this month, so I know how he feels. But, my question/point is...is he serious? Will he actually do it? When you start making those kind of statements (I won't accept a marriage without sex) you have to be prepared to actually do something about it or the person you say it to will learn that you really don't mean what you say. And I think Hill has had a problem with this in the past, saying things that he didn't mean in the heat of the moment.

Case in point...me. I'm not willing to pull the plug so I don't make those kinds of statements. If he forced my hand, I'd end up backing down and be in an even worse position. I just wanted to make sure that Hill has really thought about this.

Prisca, actually, I think this is a big part of dropping the rope here, moving from the power struggle of Renting into becoming a Buyer, doing what you can and respecting your spouse and their decisions. My partner can withhold whatever they want, of course. But I will likely fall out of love with them if we don't find solutions we both like for too long. I'm just human like everyone else.

The same way, I encourage you not to let that "electric fence" thought patterns take hold. Choose your attitude, hon, you can do this. Acknowledging we're human and count on certain needs being met within marriage at some point is honest. It's not honest for a spouse to pretend they can go on being loving indefinitely while enduring forced celibacy without a reason both are enthusiastic about, like an extended illness.

NED, I haven't argued against any of this. The disagreement I had with Melody was not on whether or not Hilltopper should remain celibate. Did you read my post? We're all in agreement that he doesn't need to be forced to remain celibate. We disagree on whether or not an ultimatum is a demand.

Choose my attitude? Huh?

The very definition of "ultimatum" is a demand, "one whose rejection will end negotiations and cause a resort to force or other direct action."

She may give in and do what he wants, but she will likely feel forced and resentful. She will feel threatened.

Dr. Harley's articles seem to suggest the Plan A/Plan B approach.


Doesn't a spouse usually do that when they enter into Plan B?


In my case, though, when Markos did do this to me, I just went further into withdraw.

I am not saying to not let her know that there is an unmet need here. He should be honest that he needs SF, and he's hurting. But I don't believe he is going to do any good by making an ultimatum. I believe she will see him as demanding and threatening, and he will only drive Grace further away.

I think he should only make such an ultimatum if he has the explicit permission of Dr. Harley to do so I think it's a very risky move.



No, he should not tell her that unless he is going into Plan B today. She's familar with MB. She knows she's draining his lovebank. She knows unconditional love is a myth. She knows he's falling out of love with her because of this. She knows she's killing her marriage. She knows it is her responsiblity to take care of his EN.

It would be interesting to get Dr. Harley's take on this.

I can sort of see where you're coming from. It just looks very risky to me.

Those are good, well thought out points, Prisca, and I do see your perspective. The basic problem I see here is that she has illusions of unconditional love. She really does believe that he will stay in this marriage with her even though she refuses to meet his needs. That belief is what leads to false expectations of entitlement and has led to her neglect of him.

Whats Wrong with Unconditional Love?

Which leads to the suggestions in When To Call it Quits. Obviously she knows SF is his top need, and obviously she refuses to meet that need so that is where he should go next, IMO.

>>There is still a lot of resent because I said I'd get a V after the third kid because a buddy of mine did.<<

Hill this seems to be where your problem lies. You said you would get a vestectomy and now you are not. Some people would see this as a crediblity issue.
I am not arguing the merits of a v I have never thought of getting one myself, but you are stuck with having said you would get one. Where is the follow through?

I can see your wife over the next few months working up and getting her tubes tied. Your sex life will probably improve some what but what you will be left with is, when it comes to the big test, your wife will have followed through and you have not.
I would chop an arm off before I ever let that happen.
How will you mitigate this?

Prisca, I am respectfully asking you, please don't make the crazy face at me. Like you, I'm trying to reason through Hill's dilemma with him, how to de-escalate a difficult situation. I did read your post, detailed how-to on de-escalating ways for him to discuss this. See, we're all working towards the same goal.

They both have a lot of fear and feel misunderstood. Hill that he is stuck in a sex-starved marriage. Grace that she's stuck doing things she has no interest in. But that's fear talking, because really they both want the middle ground - light, fun SF that they would both look forward to. In ways that minimize the risk of more kids right now.

I was trying to also bring up another part of the dynamic, how she experiences his beginning attempts as ultimatums. The electric fence thought pattern, that "fills in the blanks" in an all-or-nothing way. Instead of looking forward to the light, fun, no-pressure habits that are the goal. That being honest and very calm in a kind way can help those situations.

When you imply that I'm arguing things that I'm not, that I have an electric fence personality, and that I need to "choose my attitude," exactly what kind of face should I make?

I agree with that.

When a spouse makes an agreement, then later changes his mind, the solution is not to force a follow through, but to renegotiate and come up with a new solution.

Grace has also said that she was, at one time, willing to have her tubes tied, but is now unwilling to consider it. She is, instead, demanding that Hilltopper do something that he doesn't want, refuses to negotiate, and is neglecting Hilltopper until he complies.

For him to give in to her demands at this point would cause more harm than good.

And what does the POJA dictate should happen to any agreement where the spouse changes his mind? The solution is to NOT follow through and to negotiate a NEW agreement that makes them both happy. Has nothing to do with credibility but everything to do with making both spouses happy.

I thought we were discussing, not arguing. I was trying to talk together in a respectful way, but from your reaction I think I must've somehow fallen short. I am not saying that you have an electric fence personality. I think that thought pattern you described, "well now he's just making demands so I'm not going to negotiate for now" sounded to me like Zap! Electric Fence! But what do I know? When I said you can choose your attitude all I mean is that even when a spouse comes off wrong you can still choose Buyer mode and keep negotiating.

But I don't know if any of these patterns are familiar to Hill or not. Hill, how is the negotiating steps thing going for you two? Do you have the safe environment established? Are you on to the next steps?

NED, you cannot negotiate with someone who is making demands as it violates the 2nd ground rule of the Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation. Simply a fact, no zapping involved.

You can, however, continue to request that your demanding spouse negotiate with you. Which is what I advised Hilltopper to do.

Hilltop

Seems like there's a whole lotta talking about sex and very little action in the affection or SF departments. A mother with three young children probably feels overwhelmed, and if she is breastfeeding the baby and her body is not back to its pre-baby state, she may be feeling anything but sexy.

You may need to meet jointly with a physician to discuss the bc issues and use him/her to help mediate a solution.

In the meantime, could you try offering her a full body massage (promising that you will not try to have sex), focusing on her relaxation and the sensory pleasure of having you offer non-sexual attention and care for her body? Removing the pressure to have sex may help her feel more open and loving toward you. Be sure to offer her words of love as well, telling her how lovely she is, how you are in awe of her and her ability to bear you three beautiful children and to love and nuture both them and you.

If you practice non-sexual touch a few times and reassure her that she is beautiful to you and that you are sensitive to her fear of becoming pregnant and the need to share the responsibility of coming to a mutually-agreeable solution to the bc problem, she might become more interested again in sex.

Some women find their sexual responsiveness diminished after childbirth, especially after the birth of a 3rd child. Starting with a non-sexual massage, eventually moving into sexual massage and pleasuring her either manually or orally may help her get back into the mood of fulfilling your need for SF.

Pressuring her for sex or complaining that your sexual needs are not being met will make her less willing to try to fulfill your EN of SF. She may also become fearful that you will leave her or have an affair.

She needs to understand that this is where her marriage is headed though. Refusing to meet your spouse's needs is a deal breaker. Not even Dr Harley recommends staying in a marriage where one spouse REFUSES to meet the other's needs. My XH had an affair and left me for the OW for this very reason. Dr Harley recommends that the neglected spouse separate and eventually divorce if one spouse won't meet the needs of the other.

This reminded me of when chickadee's FWH was on the radio show ~ his need for SF wasn't being met so he sought it outside the M. Basically, Dr Harley talks to chick's FWH about how when their negotiations did not improve their sex life, what he should have done was acknowledged that he couldn't stay in a M without SF, been transparent about it, and sought D if his EN still wasn't being met.

Part 1
Part 2

Towards the end of the second segment there is talk about what happens when you ignore your taker.

I think it might be beneficial to you, HT, to listen to these segments. HTH...

ML,

Yes, she needs to realize that failure to meet her husband's EN of SF is a threat to the marriage, but it sounds as if she has unfulfilled ENs besides that of honesty. I doubt she is withholding sex just to be mean. Hill and his wife definitely need to get the bc issue sorted out, but I also think his wife is more likely to respond to her H's need for SF if her EN for affection is being fulfilled.

Communicating his need lovingly rather than as a demand or a threat is likely to elicit better results.