I'm back. Been doing a lot of thinking, as always. So please tell me how would I know if I can forgive him for his past abuse? If he took anger management courses, what would I look for as evidence to extend forgiveness?????? Can you present me some signs/evidence to look for????? Thank you.

luvnlife


this is the only thread I have read here in recent months.

I have been attempting to recover my marriage from my A and my husband's violence and the emotional abuse that we have directed at each other.

You can find my thread here on MB (buried).

It came to the final straw: I had decided that I could live a much better life without J. I was ready for D. This was the catalyst for change.

He had a chance to sort his side (which was when I was able to refelct on my side too)

He had conditions: he had to enroll and take part in a perpetrators of abuse course. It was weekly for 32 weeks and has been monthly for 6/7 months and will continue for another 12 or so.

He has totally changed. I honestly don't believe it would be possible for him to have changed that much without the support and education he has received from the group.

He is now loving and caring.


Do I love him?

Not sure.

Am I trying to learn to love him? Yes

Will I ever get there? Who knows?








Use this check list (by Lundy bancroft):

Admitting fully to what he has done
Stopping excuses
Stopping all blaming of her
Making amends
Accepting responsibility (recognizing that abuse is a choice)
Identifying patterns of controlling behavior, admitting their wrongness
Identifying the attitudes that drive his abuse
Accepting that overcoming abusiveness will be a decades-long process, not declaring himself cured
Not starting to say, "so now it's your turn to do your work", not using change as a bargaining chip
Not demanding credit for improvements he has made
Not treating improvements as chips or vouchers to be spent on occasional acts of abuse (e.g. "I haven't done anything like this in a long time, so why are you making such a big deal about it?")
Developing respectful, kind, supportive behaviors
Carrying his weight
Sharing power
Changing how he is in highly heated conflicts
Changing how he responds to his partner's (or former partner's) anger and grievances
Changing his parenting
Changing his treatment of her as a parent
Changing his attitudes towards females in general
Accepting the consequences of his actions (including not feeling sorry for himself about those consequences, and not blaming her or the children for them)
____________________

Holy cow! I am total shock that someone has helped me!!!!!!! Thank you very much for your providing me good information! Very sleepy. Just checked this before going to sleep, it's midnight, why am I still up? lol But wow, thank you so much! I will reply this weekend! (*.*)

Staytogether, can you provide details on this course?

Ruikee, I can tell you that staytogether lives in the UK, as do I. I doubt whether the set-up for such courses would be the same in the USA (if that is where you are).

If you are in the UK, I suggest you start by contacting your local Social Services department.

Hi sugar_cane, long time no speak!

Sugar_Cane was a great help to me back in those confusing post A days.

Ruikee,

I know that there are such courses in the States. I know someone that works with victims of abuse in the states.

I didn't go through social services. Do a search on such courses in your area.

I actually found out about it when I contacted my women's shelter and had a conversation with them about my options and whether such a course is available. Having been totally panicked that they would want to take over my life once I admitted this was going on, I was relieved to find out that they were very willing to give as much or as little support as I wanted.


The key thing is with this that Anger Management DOES NOT WORK.


The really enlightening thing has been the way that all forms of abuse are categorised and highlighted. It was a great catalyst for respectful conversation between the 2 of us and I was able to see where I had been dragged in too.


I have my first meeting with my women's safety officer in a few weeks time since he begoan the course. Although they have phoned to check on me every few weeks to begin with and then tailing off.


The initial course was split into 5 or 6 modules of 6 weeks, each one looking at different forms of abuse. They assess participants at the start of the course on their beliefs and perceptions and actions and then again at the end of the 30 weeks.

My H decided to repeat the first module, so that he could appreciate it with his new line of thinking which he felt didn't kick in til after the first month, although he had graduated on to the monthly program.

The monthly program can run for as long as wanted - i think typically a further 2 years after the initial one. As well as revising the other topics the guys have been involved in producing material to support the project. J enjoys the support and opportunity to talk - although the men are forbidden from communicating with each other outside the group, he can contact the facilitator whenever.

The course works on stopping abuse by looking at the beliefs that lead to it. J has a notebook (which he hasn't used since the first 3 months) - when he or I feel that he needs a time out he walks to a quiet place (picnic bench in the hills behind our house) and analyses what's been happennning.

This is an example from his book of an attempt he made to control me using intimidation and aggression. It is from his book - and this is called a control log.


I think you can roughly pick out and read between the lines, that there are a set of Q's to work through and answer and then they help to find the best way to deal with the situation.

Let me know where you are.

I just did a quick search. Seems there is loads more support out there than there was when we were looking just under 2 years ago.

Help for perpetrators

I am so happy to see someone helping on this thread. I realize I was very forcful and agitated when I first posted, and I apoligize.

Thanks staytogether for your insight and wisdom on this very important part of building marriges and relationships.

There is allways a way to overcome and avoid the panic and fear that come with violence. What a Godsend.

Enjoy all

I'll just add, that I was like luvnlife. I guess I knew I wanted to take some responsibility for what had happened. By doing that I was empowered.

I know many people will rant and rave at me taking that line and the affect it may have on others in abusive situations. I know of a marriage guru who sees the role of the "slave" in abusive relationships.

Thing is my advice is always get out. Get out while the problems are addressed. The time of split is usually the most dangerous - these guys have done that.


I too am looking at my resistance to intimacy and that is emotional intimacy - sharing fears and hopes and dreams and physical intimacy.

It is just now that I am seeking outside help for myself - hence the meeting with the women's safety officer.

Many women don't get to this stage because they don't trust and I think that luvnlife may still be at the unable to trust stage.

I was coached through this by a lovely lady. You have to change your expectations. You have to believe that you are not a victim and you won't be again. You have to expect the best (while still being prepared for the worst - you still have your ending the relationship planse and finding a safe house in place). You still have to believe that you will be fine and have a happy lif without your spouse. But you have to believe in his changes and you have to believe that he is going to act form those changes.

Took me a year to work through that. That not expecting to be disappointed.

This new stage is frustrating. I know he is different, I can see how differently he thinks. But I have put up a wall between the 2 of us. I do feel safe. But there are still some things I need to relearn.

Now some of this is ingrained because of patterns form my childhood. I just hope that he sticks around while I learn to love.

@staytogether. Hi. In the process of moving. Been exhausted. But I also feel very overwhelmed so I find it hard to articulate my thoughts when there are so many. The abuse went on for so long and I wanted to be out of the relationship. When he confessed his sexual addictions, I was not even hurt! B/c he had killed my love. If I were in love with him, it would have hurt me. My main motivation to stay together is in hopes to provide my children with a family unit and I feel if something could make me love him, I would prefer that compared to trying to find another GOOD MAN in this world! lol Then blend two families, get to know someone, ugh ugh ugh. But most of all, I want to be a mother FULL-TIME, I want to take care of my three young ones, protect them, and help them be strong adults, be with them daily, help them see when daddy doesn't handle them/situations properly as well. If I am not there, I cannot help in these areas. (He wants joint custody and I must say he is a very loving father! He loves them tremendously. Which is another reason I feel he "inherited" his anger problems from his mother and father who both have anger problems. He seems to want to love me and love his kids, HE JUST DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO DO SO PROPERLY!!!!!!!)

I see improvement in him, but he still displays traits of selfishness demonstrated in a hunger for sex with me (it's been 4 months since we got back together but we only had sexual relations a few times, which TRIGGERED MY BAD FEELINGS, so that I knew I still had problems with intimacy with him. (while divorced I had one relationship and no problems with intimacy! In fact, it was wonderful to enjoy affection with someone with whom there were no baggage/problems) We ended that relationship due to differences in beliefs/morals. Anyways, it irritates me and resets me to zero when he tries to show me affection b/c I asked him to let me take those steps whereupon he starts asking me how long do I think it will be!??? lol I don't like that question b/c I ask him, "how long will it be before you make feel feel like I can trust you,and begin to desire you sexually?" I tell him to realize that I am angry that I too have sexual desires which are not being fulfilled b/c I am not to the point that I desire him sexually. Ugh!!!! I never hit him. I never cursed at him. I never threw things at him! I never controlled him. I was always a good woman with normal faults, but never these extreme issues he's had. So he desires me. I just want him to respect me and give me time. But he will say, "We had a good day today, we got along, dont you want to have sex?" lol Yes, I want to have sex but I don't feel close to him just b/c we had a good day. He hit me 8 months ago in a bad way. And he threatened me only recently, so I have not had enough time to trust and desire him. Why can't he understand that? I get tired of trying to make him see.

I guess I would like to ask you, what do you feel is your reason for having a wall up after he's been doing well for quite a while and has worked hard with his program? Why do you have intimacy problems at this point?

Look forward to hearing from you. I am still very tired and exhausted, so this is all I am going to share tonight. It's what came to the top of my head first! (*.*) Thank you so much once again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pleased to see you back.

From what I am reading here, you should not be considering being intimate yet.

The reason to stay with him for the children would be once he's changed. To show them that if they make mistakes they need to work hard to get it back. It is not for you to point out where he is going wrong. That does not make for a good family. Children need to see their parents working well together.

The first real thing you have to consider is ABUSE IS ABOUT CONTROL (NOT ANGER).

Think about all issues with him as being about him attempting to control you. You can work through some of them, think about what outcome he was trying to control.

Until the dynamics are understood then it would be dangerous to consider being intimate.

ITA, until he sees sexual intercourse as something different than he does. (Don't know what is effecting him but I recognize the common frustration and have heard of this before), having sex could bring upon another episode.

I am glad you are seeking counsel and I pray he is too. There is a road out of this if he will take it.

To answer your question... this is a possibility that I am currently working on.

I think I see love as a weakness. To show or accept love means that I am weak or the person I am giving it to is weak.

Being in an abusive relationship is all about control and power....the opposite of things could be coming baout in my head as weakness.

I can not be weak - therefore I cannot be loved.

I was also sexually assaulted 2x as young teenager, stuff that I began to process as an older teenager and was beginning more intimate relationships myself.

I think the whole lot has got all tangled up and confused and I need to pull it apart and relearn about love and how to love.

@staytogether. I have read that 5 times and I am trying to relate to your feelings. Hard for me since I have never been sexually assaulted. But I am trying to put myself in your shoes. Here I go. I would think that if someone overpowered you/sexually assaulted you, then you are in a weak position physically, and possibly even emotionally (unintentionally, by not having enough knowledge per say) BUT........ if you are in a mutually consenting relationship, then you have just as much power as they do. If your husband is taking steps to fight his abusive nature, and has made progress, then I would think you might be noticing qualities in him that you find attractive at this point. Sounds like he has been working on things for a while now. I'm not sure how long. So what would help? Maybe tell him that you feel like you need to be the one in most control during your intimacy????? Or ask him to be very gentle and asking in his movements? I don't know. lol I'm just trying to think about how you can NOT FEEL WEAK but endeavor to resume intimacy with normal feelings. He may need to treat you very delicately for a time. Explain to him that you are in the process of attacking your sexual delimmas due to your past and that you need his help in an experiment to see if it will help you. When two people love one another- that IS a gift from God as a way to express your love for one another, right? So to love is not weak but a way to demonstrate you care for someone. Do you have a pet? Do you feel you are weak when you do things for your pet? e.g. stroke it, hug it, kiss it, feed it? lol No, you are just showing it that you like it. So if you like your husband, then you can show him you like him. But just talk to him about what you feel comfortable with, as I said, maybe you need to establish what you feel you are comfortable with, to maintain a feeling of control of your being, control of your feelings, and not feel like you are being overpowered. I am not a professional, but I am trying to think of what would help me. I hope I said something that helped your thinking process. One last thought is that to love is really a strength, not a weakness, b/c it takes strength to overcome your barriers to show love, so when you demonstrate love you are a strong person. It's take strength, effort and actions to show love. To NOT show love is easy. Did you ever watch Little House on the Praire? You may have seen something similar, but there was a hermit on this one particular episode who was afraid to love, so he secluded himself. My point is that is much easier to just seclude yourself and not show love. Be strong in the other direction. Much love to you. LaRhonda (*.~)

@ConstantProcess. I found what you said intriguing. Could you elaborate more on those statements please?????? Thank you.

Ok, but I am only citing what I have seen before, and the common frustrations I have felt before also, as a man who felt inferior at times

Notice that's it's the inferiority that is what triggers the anger response

It's the feeling of a lack of performance quality that he might possess that causes the inferiority issues

Many times the man creates a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts, when he is abusive, and the woman runs away, and finds love somwhere else. He feels he cannot perform, and it does not have to be in the sex department only, but this fear of failure is so strong, that at the time of sexual union, instead of feeling like alpha male after sex, there is still a lingering fear of inadaquacy.
The most intense and emotional experience of bonding most men can experience, and it doesn't fulfill them somehow. Very frustrating at the least

In times when things were not good, I can remember the frustration, when after sex, I still did not feel like I had done all to please her, and it didn't even have to do with sex at all

Sometimes it was because I did not do enough in real life, buy her a house, take her to the Bahamas, give her what would make her happy, and that was even before her A and waywardness

But bringing that frustration to bed and expecting it all to go away is like using sex like a drug, when it's over you blame the drug, and pour out the rest of the bottle, but in your case, take out on you physically, and blame you.

I knew the issues we had might never be solved, but I also knew that she loved me, and sex wasn't the issue, her mindset was, but also that she had past issues with abuse, fear and confusion, and rejection. The answer to her issues, was for her to lose her fear of total submission. Something she never quite did, but I knew it was closer with me than any other, and I appreciated her letting me be with her
Yes in the throws of passion, dominance took over sometimes, but it was with gentleness and patience that we got there many times also, unless she initiated. Sometimes you can just see it that she was willing, and sometimes she told me, but I never felt inferior, and it was just sex, in the big picture

She did hold back sometimes, and one time in particular, when she was getting very excited, she stopped me and said, "I promised God I would never let anyone get to me like that again". I was pretty upset, and asked what was wrong with her thinking, but she refused to get into it, and I knew she was holding back. No she would not go with me and talk to somebody, and for the most time things were great, so I did not push her, because patience and tenderness were very important to us, and she allways believed I was the best lover she ever knew

Yes I was waiting for the day she would let herself go, but I was happy with what we had, even though she was scarred somewhere emotionally. I never felt like I was missing anything because I loved her

Now when the affair was out in the open, my confidence was shot, and it was all hysterical bonding. The drugs had changed her, and she was more aggressive but no more leg shaking climaxes now she was a mess, inside her head was where it all happened, and she really was not in contact with her body anymore, it was all a show for her mind

See I was lucky enough to know the difference, and that most of what happens sexually starts between your ears. If a man does not feel adequate and complete in other areas, and he tries to use sex to make up for them, he will blame sex if it's not a magic bullet. Then if like most men the desire leaves for sex after and he is not still in awe of the lover and in a type of afterglow and appreciation, you can feel tricked, even by yourself, and be angry for your weakness in your need. That you needed anything.
If they go as far to blame the one they needed, then resentment, and even violence, can erupt

In short having sex with him will probably disappoint him and confuse him. He will expect it to fix the problems, some that are deeper and personal, and after he could get violent again. Get him some help because he can beat this, and his sexual experience can change for him, once he takes it off the pedestal,

Hope this helped, I am not a professional, but have seen frustrated and fearful men before have to deal with this when got real extreme, and the violence is allways fear driven, allways. The greatest fear is that of inadequacy and to feel like that they might be inadaqute in bed is one thing, but if they have sex with the wrong expectations, thier fears become real.

Yup sex is a powerful EN to men and it gets to us in many ways.

Pray you get good help and like Dr Ruth says good sex

@ConstantProcess. Thank you for writing. I do appreciate it. I just don't know how to handle him always asking and demanding for me to have sex when I am not at all attracted to him, don't want to have sex with him, it repulses me b/c it triggers how awful I felt when he was abusive during our marriage (before separation and divorce for 13 years). For him to touch me just triggers a lot of bad feelings. In fact, I wonder if I can even overcome them. I wonder if it went on for too long. And yet a part of me wants things to be right. But he grovels and begs and interrogates me daily to have sex, asking when will I resume sex, that he cannot wait much longer, which only makes me feel like running from him. I don't know how we can get help. I don't know how I can get help for my feelings and I don't know how to get him to be patient with me in the process. It's very aggravating.

Its a do-over. Have you given him the books offered here? His needs Her needs, and has he went to counseling?

You have the right to never want him again. this is personal? I don't care how much great and good things he does, or how sorry he is, you do not have to accept him back in your bed. "But honey I make 100K a year, doesn't that make up for it?"

It is obvious he does not know how to respect your feelings, but will he learn is the issue.

Sounds like a plan B with some pretty steep requirements is in order, unless he can stop the begging.

"Oh yes dear of course I am sorry, and it doesn't matter you see, if you ever really want sex again, because to tell you the truth, I just need to get my nut off"

He thinks sex will fix something, and it doesnt work when you are forced, its desire from both H and W, that makes it work, but its more than,"Candy is Dandy but liquor is quicker" mentality, he is setting himself up for failure.

Sorry you are going through this, but the physical abuse factor MUST be fully addressed before you can even start building romantic love. Does he ask what would make you "feel" loved? Do you even remember anymore?

You both are gonna need some counseling and time, sex is the least of your needs right now, and this forum only has a few who can help you understand, that he needs serious help from professionals, along with the Man upstairs.

God bless your journey, please seek protection

I guess my thinking is passive- I can't let him show love to me. To allow him to do that I must be weak.

Instead I could show him love - and be active about it.

It's all about the power struggle that has been left in my mind and that is what I am trying to over come.


Luvnlife - please can you comment on his progress/your progress on Lundy Bancroft's list?

It is absolutely critical that he meets the criteria. Are you even able to discuss the list withhim?

How does he feel about your reluctance to be intimate? Does he understand your reasons? Is he actively helping you with it?

@staytogether. Are you still coming to this thread? If yes, I will write.