I found lots of resonance in Dr Harley's description of the three states of marriage, intimcy, conflict and withdrawal. My wife seems entrenched in withdrawal, with occasional excursions into conflict, but without any real structure. I was facinated by the emotional needs questionnaire and the love busters damaging behaviours. So much of it rings true. The question is how to engage my wife in trying to address our problems without placing demands upon her or threatening, or not respecting her views. I don't think I have been abusive to her, but have at times had angry outbursts and done all of the other "love buster" behavious. I am aware that I can talk over her, and she has said that I don't listen. I feel that I have been guilty of emotional neglect as Dr Harley calls it, and that so has she to an extent. We have not given the other what we need. I hope that we might be able to learn to do this for each other, but she seems to view books like His Needs Her needs as psychobabble and is not interested in looking at them. The more I learn about mariage, the more I realise how poor we have both been at it, and how much we could do to repair things. What I don't know how to do is to lead her back from withdrawal towards intimacy.

The difference between Marriage Builders and other programs is that other programs usually ARE psychobabble and MB is not. If I were you, I would get the book Fall in Love, Stay in Love, read it and then sell her on the program. Leave the book laying around.

The way I sold my husband was identifying a couple of key needs and lovebusters that I committed and focusing on those. For example, my idependent behavior drove him insane so I told him this program eliminated that altogether. He loved that idea and we ended up going to a MB weekend together. [they do that same course online now]

You might get her to take the lovebusters questionaire first and tell her you need help in identifying behaviors that bother her. That really got my husbands interest.

In the meantime, you should be priming the pump by doing your best to meet the top intimate emotional needs of affection and conversation [for women]. Take her out ALONE as much as you can and try to even get her off for a romantic weekend alone.

This is helpful. I like the idea of asking for her help with eliminating my love busters.
The problem is she is so withdrawn she barely speaks to me, except about logistical things, and I feel that what I have been doing thus far is to use the love buster tactics of pressure, demand and anger on her, which is obviously why things have not got any better!! She does not want to go out alone with me and the prospect of a romantic weekend is a thousand miles away at present. I will do my best with affection, although she has fobidden any physical contact and conversation.
I have ordered the book (I have quite a collection by now!)
Many thanks for your reply

From one junior member to another. But speaking from someone who is in withdrawal from my husband as well... If she is that withdrawn from you, then I would suggest that you go to her and ask her what would she want or desire from you to make her find you attractive in her eyes. That alone is a humble act. Then work on what she tells you. She may feel out of control in a lot of areas due to your admission that you have yelled over her/angry outbursts. She seems to be withdrawing from what she fears/dreads. So keep working on your love busters, and just plain ASK her what you can do to make her feel attracted to you and desire you sexually.

Thank you Luvinlife,
It is really interesting/helpful to hear from a lady who is in withdrawal. I have asked her what I can do to help her, but not what i could do to make myself attractive to her. She seems so sad and withdrawn, and feels she is a failure and has messed everything up. I try to assure her that she is none of these things but she does not want to accept it.
I would love to be able to comfort her, reassure her and give her the love and affection she needs. I am not talking about sex, but about affection. It sounds as if you feel that sexual attraction is important, which I am sure is the case, but in my mind that comes after rebuilding friendship, respect and love. Maybe I am wrong?
Than you for your reply and any other comments/advice would be very welcome.

I wavered between withdrawal and conflict in the months following the discovery of my FWH's adultery, which shook to me to my core.

There were times I hated him (conflict) and times I felt nothing at all for him (withdrawal.) The way he finally succeeded in getting through was his persistent gentleness in the way he responded and acted toward me. He never ever love busted--no angry outbursts ever, nor any of the others either, no matter what I dished out to him in my pain and hurt. This was new behavior on his part, and it took a while for me to believe it.

If I was angry, he responded with love and gentleness. When I pushed him away, he was understanding. He really put himself out there with humility, a trait he rarely displayed in the past. It impressed me.

He daily tells me he loves me and that he is IN love with me even though I have not been able to respond in kind in months. He hugged me even when I responded with stiffness. When we were sleeping, he would reach out and put his hand on my back or arm.

So finally finally it started getting through and I am no longer in withdrawal. We're getting back to intimacy.

So my suggestion would be to never ever have an angry outburst. Avoid the love busters, all of them. They are an abuse of your marriage relationship. You can control yourself if you think about what you are doing. Be persistently gentle. Show humility. Put yourself and your pride on the line. She may trample it, but at some point, she may really notice it and possibly admire it.

Also, is there anything she enjoys doing that you can join her in? Then she will be enjoying herself, and there you will be, too, part of the enjoyment.

For example, I love to hike. My H started searching around for trails here and suggested we go. I don't like hiking by myself for safety reasons, so it's always good to have someone along. He was with me while I was enjoying the beauty of nature and the challenge of the hike.

Perhaps your wife would enjoy a bike ride or a walk or a museum or a sport. Heck, even shopping. There must be something. So maybe she's not ready for a romantic weekend just yet. Try a fun activity together.

Hello 51CD30
Thank you for your useful and interesting reply.
I have suggested such tings as joint activities, but she resolutely says she does not want to. I have also been as affectionate as i can be, but she refuses all physical contact. I am being sympathetic and kind and doing as much stuff around the house as I can. I have only lost my temper twice in the last 9 months, although I know that is twice two often, it has been under enormous pressure.
I cannot leave her, becasue I love her and it would be very bad for our children, so I am hanging in there and doing what I can.
Maybe it will all just take a long time.
My 17 yr old stepdaughter who lives with us has very much taken her mothers part and is being very curt and standoffish, although not above asking me to go to the supermarket! I am just trying to be polite and helpful as much as possible, but it is not easy.
I have been trying to figure out what my wife's needs are, and thought about showing her the questionnaire, but the way she is just now I think I would get it back faster than I would like! I have also been trying to keep track of cause and effect, i.e. if she is mad at me what have I just been doing, if she is less mad, why is that?
Also I have had different advice about saying "I love you" or calling her "darling etc" Does this just make her feel more trapped, or is a way of affirming my love for her. All very tricky of a simple man!

What has brought this withdrawal on? What is her explanation? How long has this been going on? What was your marriage like before her withdrawal?

She had an affair with a man at our work. Our marriage had deteriorated gradually over the last couple of years and in hindsight we were not meeting each others needs well, and she turned to the man at work because he was empathic and kind and understanding. I think I had failed her, partly because she was getting more and more cross about things, and I had some difficulty coping with our twin stepdaughters in their mid teenage years. The affair at work has fizzled out (I think) but my wife refuses to show any affection or even friendship toward me and refuses to allow me to have any physical contact, meaning even hugs are not possible. My wife gets a lot of affection from one of our teenage daughters and lots of conversation from girlfriends and texting. I get logistical conversation and not much else. She is sleeping in the spare room or in bed with our 9 year old daughter.
I keep showing her verbal affection, trying to initiate conversation, being there for her, but she avoids eye contact, declines suggestions to spend time together and avoids me when possible.
What else can I do except hang in there?

You are wasting your time trying to reach her. Your marriage will never recover as long as she sees the OM at work. She is in an affair. Recovery is impossible. Sorry.

I am a little frustrated that you didn't explain this initially because all of the advice we have given you is worthless since the cause of your problem is her affair. That changes everything. We have been giving you advice for toe fungus while the real problem is that you have cancer.

There is nothing we can do to help you unless she leaves the job and ends the affair. Nothing. Nothing will change until that changes. Except your marriage will get worse because it is a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage.

Listen to this radio clip of a husband who called Dr Harley saying his wife responded to nothing he did after the affair: CLICK HERE

Recovery from an affair requires a very specific strategy, that begins with ending the affair, ending all contact, exposing the affair and using the Basic Concepts to create a romantic relationship. Step one has not even been done in your case. If you will post about the affair over on the Surviving an Affair, we can help you save your marriage. But you have to be honest and up front about the REAL problem. Otherwise, we can't help you.

Do what Mel suggests. She is right on in saying that nothing you do will help your marriage if your W is still in contact with her AP.

She will not think clearly about you or your marriage until after NC has been established and she is past the withdrawal period.

Oh dear sorry I have not Given enough information. I am very new to this situation, desperate to save my marriage and have been reading lots of books and seeking advice from wherever I can.
If it is useful for you to know my wife said she wanted to be with one of my work colleagues in feb 11 and all three of us work in the same small Organisation in a small (1500) rural village. Since then rhe work place has given my colleague a formal warning for having a relationship with an employee and he has apologized to me and said the affair is over. My wife has cOntinued to say that she is unhappy in our marriage and that were it not for the children she would move out. I am unsure how much contact my colleague has with my wife as it is impossible to monitor email and texting, but at work they obviously continue to work together and have professional contact. The situation is complicated by our rural location and by rhe fact that if the affair became public they would probably both lose their jobs.
Having read the book I can see that both of us have been guilty of emotional neglect and both fell into very destructive patterns of behavior. Her admission of her loss of love for me has made me realize how precious our marriage and family are, but she says it us all too late. We have a 9 yr old daughter whom we both dote on, and I have told my wife I am sorry for what has happened and want to build a better marriage and heal our relationship. She has thus far been unable to meet be even part of the way. I have been patient kind forgiving and loving and have been trying to meet her needs without any response from her. What can I do? I want to be very honest on this post and would like to receive honest hard hitting advice. Thank you

One of them has to leave the job. Did you listen to the clip I posted? Your marriage can be saved! But you are throwing it away for no good reason by tolerating her continued contact with the OM.

Your wife is addicted to the OM. You have to understand that her affair is just like an alcohol addiction. It is like an alcoholic changing the name of his drinks to "professional" and trying to sober up. It will never work. All your wife has done is change the name of her drinks to "professional" and continued to go to the bar every day. She has to stop drinking altogether.

THIS IS WHY SHE HAS FALLEN OUT OF LOVE WITH YOU. She cannot fall back in love with you unless she ends all contact with her OM. This is why nothing you do has any effect.

This is not too late if you will start doing the correct things to kill the affair and get her out of there. Once you get her out of there, you have a great chance to save your marriage.

Is this guy married? If so, does his wife know about the affair?

You really should hit the notify button and ask the mods to move this to the Surviving an Affair forum. Your problem is an affair, my friend.

bump

Bump?
I have notified the moderator as you suggested, and started a new thread. You are right, the problem is the affair. She is withdrawn because she does not want to be with me, but does not want to leave the house + kids = trapped and unhappy and no idea what to do.
That is her situation, mine is that I love her and want to help her.

R-

I am a piker in terms of doling out the advice in such matters compared to Melody so listen to all she says. As a BH (and my FWW is not mired in withdrawal and whatever addiction she had to OM was exorcized on May 8th 2011), I will say this: there is no ambiguity in the MB program. Yes, you can stray a bit from the plan and you may pay, but its a straight forward method to rebuild what some cretan and your wife are trying to destroy.

It has taken me over 3 months to get here, but be a man, decide what is yours, protect what is yours, go get what is yours and help her see thru the fog that obviously is blinding her.

When you have bad days, come here and unload on us. Lord knows, I have down more than my share. DO NOT YELL AT YOUR WIFE. Nothing shuts down WWs more than that.

Good luck.

Thanks Mike,
I am very new to this, and need a guide to all the abreviations!
BH =
FWW=
WW=
Maybe I am the cretan.

Hey, I get to tell someone else what these mean:

BH: Betrayed Husband
FWW: Formally Wayward Wife
WW: Wayward Wife

No, a cretan is a man who has sex with another man's wife. They do so knowing the severe damage they are causing but are thinking about one thing. A WW can get caught up in a cretan (heretofore known as OM: Other Man) because as explained she is weak and selfish and like all humans can get her needs filled when the spouse isnt looking by someone else. Heres the best part, most of these A's (Affairs) dont last and you, like me, are left holding the bag.

Follow the program and things get better.

Thanks Mike
Here's hopng things will get better. Doing lots of reading and posting and learning. Is it the online program you refer to?