Stretch,

FOUR times I started a response to your notes, and, doubting whether what I had to say made any sense, stopped. I'll try again.....

The good news is that you, and by now probably even your wife, realize that her mental/emotional turmoil had a hand in her EA, NOT the other way around.

The bad news is that the good news pretty much excuses most of us from giving you serious, directed, assistance. "Recovery" in your case, to the shaky state of "her" marriage pre-A, would be tragic.

Since we're all committed to a scheme of action here, let me re-phrase your question back to you:

Is she able to make a commitment to the MB Principles???

I would think the answer today would be "No". Your mission is to change that answer. None of us here envy you the task.

Stretch how much of her time is consumed by DS and FC? As a mom to four small kids I find my day very very busy and filled with constant activity from 0600-2100 seven days/week. It is very overwhelming and quite daunting. I ask GOD daily to just give me enough strength to get through today.

If she is consumed in her day by all these activities, then I would ask you can her depression be compounded by her responsibilities?

Can someone from your church or a neighborhood teenager be brought in to help with some tasks?

If you can dump some love into her bank by getting her some help that may be enough of a boost to jump start the process.

I would suggest asking friends, church friends, and/or a babysitting service is they can come in for two or three hours a couple times/week to help with laundry or grocery shopping or just reading, writing, and helping the children.

FC is my top EN, and with my WH completely abandoning us on this front my love has gone into the red for him during Plan B. I think giving her the opportunity to have some quiet time during the day to just get herself organized would be helpful. Often during the day I cannot get my thoughts organized or even think straight because of the business in my life due to my kids.

This will allow you the opportunity to take some time away for yourself as well. It doesn't have to be permanent, just a couple months to help her get herself organized in the FC arena.

Tough~

Yeah those Principles, that is the question isn't it?

Most of us realize they are healthy, fair, insightful, and mature, so why do they seem so hard to maintain?

Maybe because we sometimes, with good reason, have to look around for where our spouse went, even though for the longest time you took the attitude that you would keep giving, and not worry about recieving.

But we find even that noble and faithful attitude of selfless sacrifice does not guarantee being loved. We have to be able to openly and honestly express our needs, everyday, everyhour, be honest about them, and decide.."Hmmmm, do I really need that? Is it practical or just a whim? Is that a need or want or....Nm.. the mood is gone, maybe next time."

In this world of instant gratification we got to be careful what we let into our minds that takes up that space and our time. MB Principles...UA time...Radical Honesty, Enthusiastic Agreement, well they are so linked with what marriage and romance are that people might miss it while they look for the better deal, the easier road.

I agree that its important to give your wife breaks when it comes down to having small children, and they are your too, I know you can find things to do with them, even if it is cleaning the house, so she can have some kinda break. But what will she do with that time? I know a young guy who doesn't go to strip bars, and his reason is this, "When I am thirsty why would I go someplace to stare at a glass of water?. That could lead to trouble and just be torturing myself" He has been a bouncer at night clubs before, so he knows whats up in average circles, he just knows what to ignore.

So what will she be doing with absolute free time? Toxic friends or activities? Just like you tough, spouse being around the military young person lifestyle and skankyhola, what we are doing with our free time should also be POJAed, because as married ppl we take each other with us even when alone.


But the MB principles, with all the objective and personal truth and love that can be realized through them, is probably the best thing you guys can count on, and concentrate on.

Do you think she is mentally capable? The emotions will come with good decisions, is she capable?

Oh BTW the outside help idea is a good one, and if it came from a supportive church so much the better.

Stretch,


I want to gently point something out to you. Please take it as I mean it, gently, gently.


You post that your wife seems focused on fixing the husband's problems, and that she isn't seeing her own problems.


Go back and read your posts. The husband focuses also on the wife's problems, and her issues with why she does not "fix" her depression.

Wife focuses on fixing husband. Husband focuses on fixing wife.


Please. Read my book recommendation. It will help you stop this circular issue. I promise.


Schoolbus

So DS is, I'd hazard, a big thing for her. So you hear her and tell her that you hear her. But are you *really* stepping up to help out? Or do you start off strong, get little in return and back off. If you do (and I've done it, too), I imagine your wife would see such efforts as insincere.

So, is there anything more you could do that you don't do, for whatever reason? Give her a break during the week if she's a stay at home mom. Tell her to go somewhere for a few hours, you've got the kids and supper will be ready at 6:00 (or whatever). My wife usually goes to a bookstore, has a cup of coffee, unwinds.



Yes, for the love of Pete, don't say that anymore!


If she's medically depressed, then it's not really you that's causing things. But having that plus the kids plus whatever else added to it can be overwhelming. I'd suggest not continually asking what to do to help, just do something without asking or being told. I'm not saying that you are, but if you're always asking "What can I do to help?" then it may be getting old with her...like she's a mental patient or something. I don't know if that makes any sense as I'm just relaying my experience with my (depressed) wife. By always bringing up the depression, always bringing up what isn't working, it keeps it in the forefront.

Do you ever compliment her for something that she has done right?

I think you can have a positive influence in this dynamic. You just have to step up a little more, even though you're not getting what you want in return. Been there, done that. But what's your alternative? Divorce?

Just remember that she wouldn't be like this if she had a choice. She likely HATES being like this. To presume otherwise, that she isn't trying to "fix" herself, is not somewhere that you should go with her. Make sense?

Depression's a [censored]. If she has trouble with just employment, imagine how overwhelmed she probably is with marriage recovery?

My wife told a story to me once that was relayed from a depressed friend of hers. The woman had dumped a load of laundry on the bed, ready to sort. But she couldn't find a matching sock and became so overwhelmed by it that she started crying and couldn't continue. My wife said she, at her worst, felt like that all the time and, when she couldn't handle seemingly easy everyday tasks, more complicated ones were just out of the question.

Has your wife's psychiatrist tweaked her medication?

Well said, brokenvase and thank you for posting your insight.

Wow. I've heard nearly all that you said, verbatim, from my wife.

At the time, I never knew how my trying to "fix" things was the ultimate insult and DJ.

Fixing things
Fighting depression
I hear you on all counts

The only way I kept going sometimes was to not look at myself through my own filter
And that is so disconnected, who could know me?

Either function or spend time thinking, it was better throw out what I thought and just do what o knew was right, work,work,work

Now if I took my thoughts out at night, I would need constant reassurance, and that didn't make me feel like much of a man. So I kept them to myself and worked on the challenge at hand, money, money, money

But I was pretty much alone in that too, unless I wanted to sell garbage or steal, it seemed like it would be hard work for this guy

Just sharing some thoughts no message, just I can relate and man when she got depressed? It's contagiuos

I remember telling my wife once that her depression was getting me down.

Yeah, that went over like a [use your favorite expression here].

Oh well, I've learned a little since then.

NW - LMFAO - I can only imagine how that went over, but it was probably honest. Clinical Depression must be a bear - I mean we all get sad sometimes, but true depression must suck and it's a life long battle. I think all WS that must fight these demons probably have a more difficult time recovering a marriage. It's not only the relationship that needs attention, but also these demons that need to be kept in check. If I ever reach that point, my WW fights food and self-esteem issues. Oh well, contemplating a scenario that's extremely unlikely at this juncture.

Stretch, I think you need to focus on you and not LB'ing your wife. I agree with NW or CP when they said that you should 'do' and not ask, then do. My WW had a beef with me doing that a long time ago, so I just started doing stuff that needed to be done; i.e. load of laundry, bathrooms that need cleaning, etc. My WW said that it made her feel like she was raising two kids instead of one, if I'd ask first.

I so get that. Depression is a horrible thing. Sneaky, insidious, even. It is simple to recognize the negative thought patterns. Changing them is a whole different story. It takes conscious - and constant - effort.

I find most days I am the same way. Depression for me is like my frequent headaches - not quite debilitating enough to where I can't function entirely, but enough to where I know I am not functioning at an optimal level. I have to "function," I have no choice. The kids need this or that, I have to go to work, etc. But once the pure "functioning" is done, I have little energy for myself. Logically, I know there are things I could do that would help to alleviate the depression - exercise, for example. I feel good when I run, and I want to run, but sometimes simply lack the motivation to do something as simple as turn the TV on, let alone the motivation to work out.

And so many folks don't "get" depression. "It's all in your head!" they say. People telling me to "cheer up," or, God forbid, "It could be worse," doesn't help. Yes, life could be so much worse, but part of the problem is that depression makes us too self-focused and unable to visualize the "bigger picture."

Complicating matters is whether or not the depression is mainly biochemical or situational in nature. Likely there is some sort of chicken-and-egg argument here, or perhaps self-fulfilling prophecy...

Meds are the go-to solution for so many doctors, but I've had no luck with several different AD's and am too worried about potential side effects to try any more. Herbals are useless at best, possibly dangerous at worst. Numbing strategies - food, alcohol - are even more useless, b/c numbing only works for a while, and alcohol really only makes one more depressed.

Regardless of whether one is clinically depressed or not, you (she) have to reach the conclusion that no one else can "make" you happy. My H used to tell me this, pre-A, when I'd whine about not being happy. He'd say, "it's not my responsibility to make you happy". Now, granted, it is a spouse's responsibility to work at filling the other spouse's ENs, which if done well, certainly goes a long way towards creating happiness, but I understand what he was trying to tell me. Unfortunately I understand it *now* as opposed to *then*, but hindsight is always 20/20.

You can build her up, meet her need for DS, and do try to give her breaks from the kids (just make sure she is engaged in POJA'ed activity during those break times)...but you'll never be able to "make" her happy, even more so if she's truly clinically depressed, and I hope that she has a physician that stays on top of things.

Well, I read back over this and it's more rambling than it is advice or anything, just chiming in that I totally understand how difficult depression is to deal with.

When people told my brother that his depression was "all in his head", his response was "Well, that's where my brain is, so YEAH, it IS all in my head!".


I think it is hard for people to understand mental illness more than other illnesses. I kind of equate them to knee injuries, so patients better understand.

If I hit you really hard on the kneecap with a hammer, it would hurt and probably swell up. You might get a nice bruise.

At first, you would have obvious injury there. People would say, "He can't jump on the trampoline, because Schoolbus hit him on the knee today with a hammer."

Over time, though, that swelling would reduce, and the black-and-blue mark would leave. But I can guarantee that the kneecap would huuuurrrrrtttt still down there underneath. There wouldn't be a big desire to jump on any trampolines for quite awhile. You would still limp until that kneecap fracture was completely gone, even though the obvious outer signs had healed.

When people asked you to jump on the trampoline, you might say, "I can't yet. Schoolbus hit me on the knee with a hammer." They would say, "I think you are over that by now. It's all in your head. There isn't any bruise or swelling."

Yet, you still feel the pain, you are still unable to bend like you used to, and when you jump even a little just on the carpet in the privacy of your own room at home, it really hurts. You are not ready for a trampoline party. And it will probably be many more months until you even go and watch one.



That's mental illness. You cannot see it. But it is there, it hurts, it keeps people at home, it prevents them from participating, it stops them from even trying things. They stand back from things that used to be fun, because they just know they cannot enjoy them. That pain is real. It isn't in their heads. It is in their kneecaps.



Schoolbus

I was feeling down so I thought I would post also on depression again

Ok haha it's really not a laughing matter, if you could laugh it wouldnt mean you weren't depressed in some way either

Medically if I am correct and please feel free to correct me, deppression symptoms occur when the PFC, the problem solving parts of our brain, undergo extreme stress. So the treatment with anti DS of someone in a traumatic situation, is like bailing out a boat with a teacup, it all depends on how big the hole is, or how big the boat is. Sometimes it has little effect

Another aspect also is, that to some people, facts is facts. Until they reason through enough possible answers, they don't come to the realization of what they can or cannot do, so again meds do little, maybe slow down deep panic or despair, but the final solution is to reason it all out. " It's sad but it's not the end of my world"
Meds can help, but the ultimate goal is getting peace. And yes, I belive you can have peace and still not have all the answers

For someone who goes through tons of traumatic life changes, it's a way of being that is familiar to them. This is the most frustrating and dangerous, frusfrating to others because they seem to look for trouble, and dangerous for them because they are used to trouble. (the blues anyone?) They give up on change, because they are convinced that this is thier lot in life, and they won't be fooled again by being stupid enough to have hope or being positive. So they don't bother
These are the hardest to deal with, because on that side of depression, you also find a form of bitterness, and desperation, and anything positive or bubble gum nice is put down as neive, when in fact it is a choice of looking at something from a different perspective. I watch out for these people, they tend to be wolves in sheeps clothing, the poor things.

But the point of depression, is to stop and think, and we find we are in valleys and low points at times in our lives. We would hope that we would eventually come to that point in the serenity prayer, where we would accept things we can't change anyway,(thinking of the teenager who gets depressed about the environment), but do what we can,(recycle, active in politics, vote and write your congressman), to make the proper balance towards solving the problem

Again actions are the key, and depression is supposed to be temporary and to come before action. We are supposed to be depressed sometimes

I think of the old line. "Mama told me there would be days like this, but not so many of them in a row"

Deppression is a precursor to creativity also it seems, but it isn't nessesary for creativity, just a side effect of all that thinking

I would like to belive, that thoughts and judgements in our mind being adjusted and understood is the best way to work past depression, and outward positive action come from those understandings, but this is not about situational depression right? This is about a chemical imbalance, which our brains are all chemical battery's , and the chemicals change with the stress on them. Those with a problem producing the chemicals to handle stress, in
Large amounts, have other qualities so we can hope thier stress and depression is short lived, and they avoid the stress as much as possible.

When there seems, and I stress seems, to be too much to figure out, or handle, we all can be in some really deep valleys

Clinical depression is different from what some people call depression.

Some people get "depressed" about daily events, say, they wreck their car or lose a job. That is a NORMAL response to bad events in life. You are supposed to feel bad when bad things happen.

It is when you feel bad for extended periods of time, and cannot rise out of the sadness, and when there is a sense of hopelessness and no real "reason" for this in your life. Or, when a triggering event such as a death in the family results in a long-term depression, and a person does not recover from it.

Studies link depression to brain chemicals, such as serotonin, for example. Other types of meds are used for increasing or decreasing reuptake, or increasing production of other chemicals, or decreasing other chemicals. It just depends on what the person's responses are to a given medication. Docs will try a course of one med, then another. Even some antiseizure medications have been shown to be effective in some patients.


The interesting news is that EXERCISE is just about as good, or better in some cases, as antidepressant medications for relief of symptoms.


The studies seem to support that meds, in combination with talk therapy, are more effective. And if you add in exercise, and a supportive "people" network (family and friends), the recovery rate is higher.


It takes a village.

How's it going, Stretch? Since you last posted of 05 August, and we amateur shrinks have been debating and expounding on depression, an entire weekend has passed.

Was there any progress on your personal front?

Hey, I resemble that remark!

But yeah stretch I am going to continue to talk about depression, so you will be less depressed when you aren't reading it

What's up?

Generations of blues singers would tend to agree with you.

And me too, for that matter, I've never written so much before.

SB, I've always liked that saying, "it takes a village", kinda like the proverb about many counselors, and that support is the most valuable

When I had a break up from my first marrige, running was a good exercise to help me during that time, but I must admit it was that I was doing the right thing healthwise, that was a big part of feeling good. I still had mountains to overcome, and rollercoaster rides, that I did not want, but time and rational thought were defiantly helping.

See in my case, I was defiantly guilty, and took it head-on, to straighten out my world. I had slept with this woman, I had married her, I had co created a child, and I did not have a job that could pay for that kind of support of a family at 18, or keep us all fed and happy, so then I also was guilty of the immaturity of unrealistic expectations, and our overload

It seemed pretty simple, I would no longer have feelings of guilt, when I had a solid career and could see my son regular and support him. All I had to do was do the plan. Get some college, get a career, and keep it simple. And maybe, I could afford some kind of relationship, when I had the money. The fantasy that two of us could work together was blown, so I was gonna wait a long time, until I had my ducks in a row, before I tried that again.

During that time I expected to have times of loneliness and even doubt, but I would not waver from the plan, because everything I wanted to do for my child, weighed on my heart, and I wouldn't want it any other way

The future would bring relief, and patience was required.

What went wrong is I did not stick to the plan,and played around at dating, thinking that was also the right thing to do. But not for me, I was much more serious than that, and I could not accept that about myself, or that I needed a lot more time

Most people told me I was too serious, well of course those people seemed to on the surface have it all. Let's talk for a second about a few of the influences around me that I considered for observation

My supervisor at the plant, he was 30 and started dating an 18 year old girl who had just beaten a weight problem, and was getting over her painful shyness, at work. Oh yeah he was allready on marrige number two, and got the job from his wife who worked in the office. He got along well with Managment and eventually married her. Hated to watch that

Then a Freind of the family, who's wife "had a problem with sex?"(they had two children), and he went out on her all the time, scammed SSDI, and bragged about how he had it made, was connected, and hustled people

Another drifter young man, who slept with all the women he could, and thought I should just party now, play later, because it was working for him.

A rich real estate guy, who had an awesome wife, but also had a mistress, and chased girls, not just women.

All these guys thought I was just to seriious, and I thought at least I should be dating, and with the amount of available women around, and an active libido at 25, well it was inevitable I would fall I guess

Wrong village

I could add that I was being pursued by women at work, one in particular, who slept with the management, and I was not on the position or mindset to comply. She did a pretty good job on me also, at a time when I was back to feeling unsure, and thought it was a joke. I ignored it all as much as possible, but I did not give myself enough time, to get my crap in one boot, before I got involved again

Did I worry to much? That was none of thier business, as far as I can see, from thier lives, they didn't worry enough

But the point being, with the right support, of deeper and more seriios adults, I might have kept my commitments I made to myself, even if that meant worrying and being depressed once in a while

It's been my experience we let ourselves down, when lower our own expectations of ourselves, and some people are just waiting for us to fall and swim in the sewer with them
Then how depressed do we become?

ITA. t/j, I am seriously thinking about writing a novel. I've always dreamed about being a writer, might as well give it a go.

Sorry for the t/j, stretch. Was actually reading about cognitive behavioral therapy in one of our lesson plans yesterday. We teach it in conjunction with dealing with offenders, but seems to me it would be applicable in many mental disorders with disfunctional thinking patterns. It gets back to the difficulty, though, of retraining your thoughts.

Interesting article in the local news about a man who used something similar to treat his schizophrenia. Essentially talking back to the voices in his head. He's completely unmedicated for his psychosis - it was pretty fascinating.